Guest_john_sheparrd_*
I always think that there should definitely be an opinion to tell the chantry and their andraste to go to hell (for people who don't like religion at all and hate the chantry)
BUT I also want the option to support the chantry because believe it or not some actually like them (like me in most cases at least)
I don't want Bioware to just to back down just because some don't like it
and choice is always good
No, it was the Chantry, set up by the Orlesian Emperor Kordillus Drakon, that did all those things in Andraste's name. The (white) Chantry is, and always has been a front for the political interests of Orlais.
and the Black Chantry is the same for Tevinter.
At least the White Chantry also has support in other nations, at least theological support
Everytime I see a post of yours I dislike you more and more.
.
Frankly, I get the impression some people would rather pretend that people only dislike the Chantry because they hate all religion, even though that's absolutely absurd. Taking that approach means ignoring all the issues that have been brought up, time and again over half a decade, when people addressed their problems with the Chantry of Andraste - the claims about what happened to the elves of the Dales who followed another religion, it's support of the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, the Chantry controlled Circles, el ect.
You're welcome to disagree with people who don't like the Chantry, but please don't encourage vilifying them all simply because they take an opposing approach to the organization than the one you have.
Double post.Frankly, I get the impression some people would rather pretend that people only dislike the Chantry because they hate all religion, even though that's absolutely absurd. Taking that approach means ignoring all the issues that have been brought up, time and again over half a decade, when people addressed their problems with the Chantry of Andraste - the claims about what happened to the elves of the Dales who followed another religion, it's support of the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, the Chantry controlled Circles, el ect.
You're welcome to disagree with people who don't like the Chantry, but please don't encourage vilifying them all simply because they take an opposing approach to the organization than the one you have.
triple postFrankly, I get the impression some people would rather pretend that people only dislike the Chantry because they hate all religion, even though that's absolutely absurd. Taking that approach means ignoring all the issues that have been brought up, time and again over half a decade, when people addressed their problems with the Chantry of Andraste - the claims about what happened to the elves of the Dales who followed another religion, it's support of the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, the Chantry controlled Circles, el ect.
You're welcome to disagree with people who don't like the Chantry, but please don't encourage vilifying them all simply because they take an opposing approach to the organization than the one you have.
Wrong. Andrastianism is not an invention of the fanbase and the Tevinter Imperium is explicitely said to follow it.
World of Thedas, Religion section, page 123:
"Hessarian declared the Maker the one true god, and Andrastianism the religion of the Imperium. The priests of the Seven Temples were given a choice: convert or die."
It's true that it's not the most common term in the official sources, but it exists. Also, WoT provides an official definition for "Chantry", the word used to call the organized religion:
"At the heart of this monotheistic religion are the techings of the prophet Andraste, collected in the Chantry's holy book, the Chant of Light. Chantry faithful believe in the divine authority of the Maker and worship him in temples called chantries."
So for a religion to be called "Chantry" it has to be:
-Monotheistic.
-Follow the teachings of Andraste collected in the Chant of Light.
-Worship the Maker in buildings called chantries.
WoT also explains more the general rules about Andraste in the "four core principles" of the Chantry. It says:
"Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored."
It doesn't say that Andraste's nature was divine, nor that it's necessary to worship her to be accepted as "Chantry", as the Orlesian Chantry believes. So I was wrong. Given that we have formal definitions, and that the official text goes as far as calling the Tevinter Imperium's religion Andrastianism, any effort to say otherwise is not "suspiciously similar to the No True Scotsman fallacy", it's actually the fallacy itself.
Cool beans. I didn't recall it being used in the lore, and wasn't familiar with WoT's categorization. Since it does exist, I was musing out of ignorance.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Mistic.
Cool beans. I didn't recall it being used in the lore, and wasn't familiar with WoT's categorization. Since it does exist, I was musing out of ignorance.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Mistic.
Oh, no, thanks to you. Our conversation made me realize I had to work with official definitions, not fan-made suppositions, so I read the religion section in WoT again. Bioware did a good job publishing that book to clarify some things. I wonder what will be included in the second volume they teased not long ago.
i see people on the forms who hope we can kill why? like why? she fought the tevinters and freed the elves so i don't see where all the hate is coming form
Misdirected anger towards the chantry that gets put on her, unjustly I might add.
i see people on the forms who hope we can kill why? like why? she fought the tevinters and freed the elves so i don't see where all the hate is coming form
Well - if she exists (and still lives - after all the maker called her to his side...or so the story says (according to the chantry, who might be lying!), a story that could be wrong - maybe she just died or ran off or something), then killing her is - at least by some of us - seen as a way to bring down the chantry (or at least show them to be fools - religion does have too much influence in Thedas...most of those thinking along those lines are probably not strong believers or even atheists and think state should be separated from religion (which clearly is not the case...hell in some states (in the USA for example) I would say, it isn't even the case today, which is so wrong!)...)
As for me - I would probably not kill her (unless there's no other option - I would rather question her about the maker (after all - my characters and I are skeptics/non-believers, so I need to know about him)), I would want her to take a look at the chantry that wreaks havoc in the world in her (and the makers) name and take a stand against that!
greetings LAX
What havoc has the Chantry wrought exactly?
Andraste did exist. Her enemies acknowledged her existence, an empire was forever changed by her existence, a major religion was outlawed due to her existence (Hessarian or w/e his name was threatened Old God priests to convert or die, Drakon was later), even those who do not follow her acknowledge her existence (dalish).
There is no one doubting her existence in Thedas. To doubt she existed would be like doubting Charlemagne existed.
People do seem unable to separate Andraste the person from Andraste the icon of the Chantry. Andraste certainly existed as historical fact. Her Exalted March with Maferath was historical fact. Her death on a pyre in Tevinter was historical fact. Beyond that much else is conjecture.
Her sayings were largely written down after her death by her disciples and this is what became the Chant of Light. Since these vary in style and content, they may not actually reflect her sayings but how her disciples interpreted them. There are also versus that seem more a recording of events associated with her or her followers, like the Canticle of Shartan, which the Chantry later ruled as heretical. The core of the Chant of Light seems to be moral guidelines for a just society which I don't have a problem with. I just object to the way the Chantry has twisted certain aspects and interpreted it to suit their own purpose, in particular the lines concerning mages. There is nothing in the Chant of Light that I have read that says Andraste condemned mages. What she condemned was the abuse of magical power, such as that of the Tevinter Magisters she was opposing.
I have noticed people stating that if they were playing elves or dwarves they destroyed the ashes in Origins because they opposed her religion. This strikes me as somewhat odd since you don't have to believe in the Maker for the ashes to work and whilst a dwarf might have no reason to revere Andraste, an elf, even a Dalish elf, should respect her remains because if it had not been for her (and Shartan) there would have been no Dales. If you oppose her religion, why help a mutated cult of that religion? Still that is simply my take on it.
If the shade of Andraste really did appear to you that would seem to confirm her statements about the Maker rather than the opposite, unless of course the shade actually told you that everything the Chantry claimed she spoke was in fact hogwash. If it really was Andraste I think it would be rather unwise trying to kill her because a) you wouldn't be able to and 
it might really annoy her.
Still everyone seems to be assuming that the glowing figure we see in the trailer is meant to be Andraste. I think it is more likely that certain members of the Inquisition interpret what you have seen according to their beliefs. If the spirit really had announced itself as Andraste I think the Inquisitor would be rather less vague about how they survived the big bang at the beginning. So it's more a case of "I saw this shining white being which touched me" and Cassandra/Cullen/Leliana saying "Oh you've been touched by the shade of Andraste".
Yeah, I've always found that odd as well. Here is something that can heal beyond the scope of any other known magic. You don't have to be Andrastean to see that as immensely valuable, and to destroy it in spite of that because you don't like that it's associated with Andrasteanism is petty.I have noticed people stating that if they were playing elves or dwarves they destroyed the ashes in Origins because they opposed her religion. This strikes me as somewhat odd since you don't have to believe in the Maker for the ashes to work and whilst a dwarf might have no reason to revere Andraste, an elf, even a Dalish elf, should respect her remains because if it had not been for her (and Shartan) there would have been no Dales.
That and there are people in the fandom who sympathize with/ secretly think of themselves as, Mages or Dalish Elves or any of the other special-snowflake "oppressed" cultures, and hate the Chantry for being big meanie-heads to "their" people....
It is Chantry law from Andrastes time that a member of any non-human faith is to be killed on sight.....
It is Chantry law from Andrastes time that a member of any non-human faith is to be killed on sight.....
Uhm...... No?
It's easy to blame Andraste for what was done in her name after her death, but she was pretty okay when she was around. I think Rudyard Kipling said it best in his poem The Disciple
Spoilered for size
Organized religion is the cause of so many bad things in this world. Having a personal faith and a strong moral code is great, but forcing it on others is not. I think that's why people hate everything tied to DA religion, it's a reaction to how much religion is shoved in our face in real life. We'd rather just not have to deal with it in our video games. That would be my guess of why Andraste is not going to win any popularity polls anyway.
Myself, I'm okay with her as long as it stays in the background, and it isn't made even more front and center in the games. Even though it really does feel like at this point it might be. "Herald of Andraste" kind of makes me queasy. I'm not gonna lie.
Organized religion is the cause of so many bad things in this world. Having a personal faith and a strong moral code is great, but forcing it on others is not. I think that's why people hate everything tied to DA religion, it's a reaction to how much religion is shoved in our face in real life. We'd rather just not have to deal with it in our video games. That would be my guess of why Andraste is not going to win any popularity polls anyway.
Myself, I'm okay with her as long as it stays in the background, and it isn't made even more front and center in the games. Even though it really does feel like at this point it might be. "Herald of Andraste" kind of makes me queasy. I'm not gonna lie.
Given that we are going to be dealing with a breach between the mortal plane and the reality that is said to have been the home of the most widely worshiped divine figure in modern Thedas, I think it would be odd if there weren't some serious up front and in your face religious themes and discussions going on. We should see faith expressed, both kindled and in crisis, as people ask themselves what it means to have denizens from the slums of Heaven invade reality while the Creator is either conspicuously absent or has sent His Bride to gift Thedas with a savior in its time of need.
Now how much we actually will see remains unknown, but, in my opinion, the fact that people will call you the Herald of Andraste whether you like it or not is a good sign.
Given that we are going to be dealing with a breach between the mortal plane and the reality that is said to have been the home of the most widely worshiped divine figure in modern Thedas, I think it would be odd if there weren't some serious up front and in your face religious themes and discussions going on. We should see faith expressed, both kindled and in crisis, as people ask themselves what it means to have denizens from the slums of Heaven invade reality while the Creator is either conspicuously absent or has sent His Bride to gift Thedas with a savior in its time of need.
Now how much we actually will see remains unknown, but, in my opinion, the fact that people will call you the Herald of Andraste whether you like it or not is a good sign.
I don't think the fade is really all that religious in of itself. Only the Golden/black city are really all that tied to the religion, and there is no evidence that it will be involved in the plot at all. There will be religious discussions no doubt, but I don't see any good reason why it has to be the focus of the game. It should be a small part that can be explored by those that are interested and ignored by those that don't care about it.
Becoming a religious icon is almost never good for anyone. Think back on the history of religious prophets and major religious figures through history. It rarely ever ends well for them. Not to say the Inquisitor would have to meet a terrible fate, but catching the eye of overly religious people is never a good thing. Some will see him/her as a hero of the faith, but many would see him as an affront to the religion would call for his/her head on a platter. I think with demons falling from the sky, a mage and templar war, and who knows what else-we really have our hands a bit full and combating an angry mob of Andrastians would be overkill.
So you might see it as a great thing, but not everyone does.
It is Chantry law from Andrastes time that a member of any non-human faith is to be killed on sight.....
The Chantry didn't rise until over a century after her death, and had been founded by Drakon to help establish the Orlesian Empire.
It simply did not exist when Andraste had. She was never even associated with the Chantry save as an icon used by them.
Kill on sight?
It's a wonder dawrves and Dalish still exist if that were the case.
I'm not sure why people would hate Andraste?
Unless you're a die hard fan of the Old Tevinter Imperium.
She was pretty badass as far as I can tell , beside even if for whatever reason you hate her , well she got betrayed and burned alive.
Now what the Chantry made of Andraste is a whole different matter .But I'm not sure how she's responsible , she's dead.
Nothing against Andraste, just her stupid followers. I mean, if she looked at what the Chant of Light had done to the people she helped free, she'd probably face palm so hard even the Stone would feel it.
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