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why all the hate on andraste


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#276
Shadow Fox

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Well, actually...

 

It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now.

—From The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

 

The rest I agree with. But even a Chantry scholar has to admit that the Chantry was involved in that purge.

 

 

Oh, no, it's sexist. World of Thedas explains the theology behind it:

 

Gender: Gender roles are clearly defined in the Chantry, which sees women as the purer sex. Only women can be priests. Only a woman can be Divine. Men are all judged by Maferath's betrayal, and the Chantry does not permit them to rise to any senior spiritual role. They may be brothers at most, expected to study, serve, but never lead. The exception to this is the Templar Order, where most members, including those in positions of authority, are male.

 

You know, now I realize that the Templars breaking for the Chantry will give them more reasons to justify that theological stance on gender.

Depends, the renegade Templars' leaders could easily say the current crisis started because the divine was too weak to properly deal with the mages.



#277
EmperorSahlertz

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Well, actually...

 

It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now.

—From The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

 

The rest I agree with. But even a Chantry scholar has to admit that the Chantry was involved in that purge.

Even then it specifies it was the RIVAINI Chantry. So not the Chantry as an international organization, solidifying my point even more. The Chantry proper was clearly opposed to this purge.



#278
dragonflight288

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Even then it specifies it was the RIVAINI Chantry. So not the Chantry as an international organization, solidifying my point even more. The Chantry proper was clearly opposed to this purge.

 

Oh?

 

Then I suppose you have a link of some kind that condemns the actions of the Rivaini chantry by the Chantry at large, or by the reigning Divine of the time?



#279
Killdren88

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I assume people project their real life hate towards religion into video games as well. I don't because you just get into arguments with people.



#280
Shadow Fox

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I assume people project their real life hate towards religion into video games as well. I don't because you just get into arguments with people.

TBF some just hate the Chantry.



#281
Master Warder Z_

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TBF some just hate the Chantry.

 

Those poor souls, cannot accept the Maker's love and guidance.

 

Their loss.

 

Of course they must be purged as the heretics they are, but none the less, they have my pity.



#282
dragonflight288

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Those poor souls, cannot accept the Maker's love and guidance.

 

Their loss.

 

Of course they must be purged as the heretics they are, but none the less, they have my pity.

 

Some people don't care for a Maker who obviously doesn't care for them. 

 

I mean, he did abandon humanity twice, tried to seduce and marry an already married woman, and generally ignores the plight of the people. According to Leliana, the Chantry keeps this view because it means if the Maker actually does deign to glance your way and show you favor, that means you are special, above the others, and thus they rejected her beliefs in the Maker having love for all. 

 

This is how it's described by in-game characters. Even Aveline points out how she doesn't buy how the Chantry preaches "the less the Maker does, the more he's proven" or something like that. 


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#283
Guest_Doctor Whom_*

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I assume people project their real life hate towards religion into video games as well. I don't because you just get into arguments with people.

 

I haven't denied that as someone who considers themself secular in real life, I play my characters like that in the game too. If the games had already established these things as fact it wouldn't be such an issue, but BioWare went out of their way to at least leave the Maker ambiguous and I think that's what's best for both sides. Andraste, fine, whatever. As long as she's depicted as some sort of mage I won't mind if she's somehow in the game. But, if the Maker shows up and starts zapping people  and telling my Dwarf to convert, I'm going to be pissed and I think that's justifiable.



#284
EmperorSahlertz

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Oh?

 

Then I suppose you have a link of some kind that condemns the actions of the Rivaini chantry by the Chantry at large, or by the reigning Divine of the time?

Considering that the purge broke the peace treaty the Chantry had JUST established and Petrine specifies it was the Rivaini Chantry (ie. Not the Chantry proper) which did the purge, I'd say the evidence is already on the table. They do not have to condemn to not support.



#285
LobselVith8

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I assume people project their real life hate towards religion into video games as well. I don't because you just get into arguments with people.

 

You would assume incorrectly, because a number of people take issue with the Chantry for a number of reasons. The Dalish historical account condemns the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert, there's the prohibition against the elven religion and the refusal of the Chantry to publicly address that elves are just as deserving as humans of the Maker's grace (as addressed by Celene to Leliana in "The Masked Empire"), the Chantry controlled Circles are strongly opposed by some people, and what the Chantry preaches about magic is another issue that has some people look at the organization with disdain. I know people differ in their views on the Chantry, magic, and elves, but I don't see how anyone can seriously disregard the grievances that some people have about the Chantry and dismiss it as simply hating all religion. It's completely absurd.


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#286
The Hierophant

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It wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the Rivaini branch's slaughter had probably made Val Royeaux issue an apology or statement denouncing the genocide out of fear of war.

Plus the Rivaini branch being so gung ho about converting people to Andrastianism that they'd commit genocide seems shady, especially after reading Brother Genetivi's codex about his experience in Rivain. The modern day Rivaini should've been the most devout Andrastians with that level of zeal, but they are not.

If this isn't a lore inconsistency and is instead intentional, then the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that the nationalists used Andrastianism as a cover to kill the converts for not following the old ways.
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#287
Master Warder Z_

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Some people don't care for a Maker who obviously doesn't care for them. 

 

I really like that i have a quote that explains my view here.

 

"Whom are you to know the mind of god? You but flesh,blood and pain and i am something beyond mortality."-Nagato 



#288
Hellion Rex

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I really like that i have a quote that explains my view here.

 

"Whom are you to know the mind of god? You but flesh,blood and pain and i am something beyond mortality."-Nagato 

In all honesty, I kinda agree. If the Maker is real, and I think he kinda is in some form or fashion, he's an entity that isn't human and can't be bound by the social constraints that we ourselves would follow in Thedas. I think he's just one hell of a powerful spirit, and their (spirits and demons) way of thinking is so...alien to mortals.



#289
AresKeith

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In all honesty, I kinda agree. If the Maker is real, and I think he kinda is in some form or fashion, he's an entity that isn't human and can't be bound by the social constraints that we ourselves would follow in Thedas. I think he's just one hell of a powerful spirit, and their (spirits and demons) way of thinking is so...alien to mortals.

 

Like a spirit on Par with the Dalish Gods and the Old Gods?



#290
Hellion Rex

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Like a spirit on Par with the Dalish Gods and the Old Gods?

Perhaps. At the very least, on the same power level as the other two pantheons. Well, maybe stronger than the Old Gods, if He truly trapped them all in those prisons.



#291
dragonflight288

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I really like that i have a quote that explains my view here.

 

"Whom are you to know the mind of god? You but flesh,blood and pain and i am something beyond mortality."-Nagato 

 

I don't understand the reference, but let me ask a question.

 

Did Nagato abandon his creations twice, try to marry an already married woman, and ignores his followers by their own doctrine?



#292
Hellion Rex

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I don't understand the reference, but let me ask a question.

 

Did Nagato abandon his creations twice, try to marry an already married woman, and ignores his followers by their own doctrine?

Ummm, no. Nagato killed a metric crap ton of people...he was known to his village as "God". And he's from Naruto.

 

Z's point was that the Maker may not play by the same rules or even think in the same ways mortals do. So perhaps this is him caring, letting people live their lives as they choose.



#293
Daerog

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Try to marry? He did marry her. It was a spiritual union, while Maferath was just a physical one.

 

That is if we are taking the Chantry's beliefs as canon. After all, Leliana could be right, or the Imperial Chantry could be right. Different forms of Andrastianism.



#294
dragonflight288

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Ummm, no. Nagato killed a metric crap ton of people...he was known to his village as "God". And he's from Naruto.

 

Z's point was that the Maker may not play by the same rules or even think in the same ways mortals do. So perhaps this is him caring, letting people live their lives as they choose.

 

Oh. 

 

I've never actually watched Naruto, so that's why I never got the reference. 

 

Well, if that's Z's point, and what he believes about the Maker, he is pretty much claiming the entire Chantry doctrine is wrong. 



#295
AresKeith

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Oh. 

 

I've never actually watched Naruto, so that's why I never got the reference. 

 

Well, if that's Z's point, and what he believes about the Maker, he is pretty much claiming the entire Chantry doctrine is wrong. 

 

They wouldn't be the first to misinterpret things



#296
dragonflight288

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They wouldn't be the first to misinterpret things

 

No, they wouldn't. I'm sure every group does to some extent, and every group does so deliberately sometimes as well as it's easier to pretend something is the way it is because of some other force and not acknowledge the flaw may be with yourself or the group you align yourself with. 

 

The elves have the oral tradition and writings, but how much has been lost over time through the telling? 

 

The dwarves have the memories, but the dwarven noble origin and the elves of Cadhalash prove that those aren't always reliable either as information that makes the dwarves look bad is sometimes taken out and forgotten. 

 

The Chantry has the Dissonent Verses, parts of the Chant of Light they have removed for being too heretical or politically inconvenient.



#297
Inquisitor Julianos

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If Fen'Harel trapped all the gods, becoming the Singular God. Than the Maker is Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf, because he finds this all Entertaining... and Funny.



#298
Darkly Tranquil

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and the Black Chantry is the same for Tevinter.

At least the White Chantry also has support in other nations, at least theological support

Oh, I agree completely. I almost mentioned in my first comment. The Tevinter Chantry is actually worse, because they almost invert the meaning of the things Andraste's preached to justify their political/social structure; they are even greater hypocrites than the White Chantry, which is quite an achievement in itself.

Nonetheless, the White Chantry is still a sock puppet for Orlais. Were it not for the threat of an Exalted March of the pious and stupid, I'm sure most other nations in Thedas (Ferelden especially; they have not forgotten the Chantry's support for the tyrannical rule of Meghren) would happy to be rid of the nest of vipers in their midst.

#299
Helios969

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I assume people project their real life hate towards religion into video games as well. I don't because you just get into arguments with people.


Yeah, I tend to agree and it's unfortunate because it is not religions and the dogmas that are the problem but some of the people within who are incapable of rational thought outside the teachings. The irony is that agnostics and atheists are operating from the same place of ignorance as their religious counterparts.
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#300
Spicen

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-Forgot about Rivain thing.

-Good to know about Divine thing. The way they have it set up, they are saying women are better than men, not just different.

Thanks Mistic.


Women are better than men that why andraste was chosen not a guy......


Atleast thats what the chantry thinks :D