123 réponses à ce sujet

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I was wondering when massively would show up; took longer than I expected.

 

I was here long before you were.

 

Here to encourage the good fight of Cerberus.

[Display Name Owner]

I'd forgot about Cord-Hislop. I like the point about hiding in plain sight because that's exactly what they did as Cord-Hislop.

I always assumed the Cerberus logo we've seen plastered everywhere to have been shared with the aerospace company but cant remember if this has ever been confirmed officially.

 

Cord-Hislop would be a major part of the Alliance Military Industrial complex so I think using them as a front makes sense as no one would dare challenge them given their links with the military and being such a powerful corporation. Rather than advertising their presence as Cerberus the logo probably deters investigation and creates the impression of official Alliance sanction.

 

I think Dale was onto something earlier with Exo-Geni being a Cerberus front also. I wish the game had have delved into this stuff like the Citadel Coup could have been all about intrigue and corruption instead of just another shooting gallery.   

 

The Cord-Hislop logo thing was just a fan theory I think. And even if not, it kind of falls flat when Cerberus plaster the logo of their front company no one is supposed to know they're connected to all over the walls of their Biotic concentration camps and illegal laboratories and the uniforms of the personnel working in those places.

[100k]

I also can accept that they speedily indoctrinated civilians over a period of 6 months, even if I don't like it. But what I can't accept is just how well rooted they are throughout ME3. If you look at the bases Shepard fights Cerberus in, these structures are massive! Each one is easily capable of housing at least 100 personnel. And there are dozens of these buildings, bases, stations, etc. I fail to see how they were constructed in 6 months to 2 years.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You overlooked Cord-Hislop, OP. That Cerberus front company, which is also the single most influential human aerospace company in the galaxy AND the company that was contracted by the Alliance to construct the SR-1 - is how TIM likely acquired his massive capital and fleet. They are sort of like a 22nd century version of Boeing.

Cerberus hid in plain sight for literally the entire duration of their existence. Yes, they had infiltrated the Alliance to a great degree and they carried out terrorist acts, but it isn't exactly a stretch of the imagination to understand how TIM could acquire the resources he had, in secret, over several decades, while running one of the most influential corporations in the entire galaxy.

 

The size of Cerberus we see in ME2 and ME3 greatly exceeds what we would expect of a corporation or even a fleet of them. The military, bases, research, personnel, not to mention the supplies it takes to run everything really strains credibility. How can an organization with so many personnel, rogue cells, plastered logos (which pretty much every government and every other warlord seems to know about), and experiments where something breaks loose and kills all all their guys keep quiet for so long? How does something like SR-2 never raise attention?

 

Their size isn't even the worst part about them.

[Geoff Pinkerton]

Further reply to Hello I'm the Doctor.

 

On Normandy Cerberus new recruits. This is substantiated in game based on what Jacob, Ken, Gabby, Joker and Chakwas tell you. I'll admit to making assumptions about Kelly and Gardner.

 

I take you're point that anonymity isn't the goal of a terrorist group who if anything crave the opposite. Technically you're also correct that Cerberus actions aren't designed to overthrow a particular government (although they have been involved with Terra Firma). Most of their questionable actions have had a scientific rationale but these have in turn had a political purpose. I suppose what I'm suggesting is a moral equivalence with terrorism. 

 

Terrorists terrorize to achieve a political aim, Cerberus pursues science to achieve a political aim but in the process terrorises people. Morally I don't see much of a distinction so I would probably agree with Jacob. Terror has been an accepted bi product of Cerberus actions but I agree it wasn't the actual goal. 

 

I'm guessing we role played Shepard quite differently in ME2.  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Normandy was co-developed with the Alliance, Cerberus, and the Turians. EDI says so.

[von uber]

Here to encourage the good fight of Cerberus.

.... as long as it doesn't involve your loved ones eh.

[ZipZap2000]

@HelloI'mTheDoctor

 

The desire for one race to be held above all others and to dominate other races (stated several times by TIM he uses the word dominate) creating a hierarchy where one race sits at the top is supremacist. 

 

Discrimination against other races based on the idea that they are not of the same race as you (Omega only humans are allowed to carry guns other races are shot on sight) is racism. Using discrimination to violently supress other races in order to dominate them and impose your hierarchy (again omega) is therefore without doubt racism entrenched in supremacist ideology.

 

The fact that they are non sanctioned ungoverned para-military outfit who openly target civilians to further their political goals and advance their supremacist ideology through intimidation of civilian populations using violence makes them terrorists.

 

Cerberus is a racist organisation dedicated to human supremacy through violent suppression of their opponents often civilians both human and alien. No opposition to their ideology will be tolerated and dissent is quashed through violent means this makes them totalitarian in nature.

 

The running of death camps (sanctuary) for the express purposes of experimentation and furthering their overall goals (violently) combined with the above points could almost give you the right to use the words "Space Nazi's from the distant future" but the real world comparison and the overuse of the analogy don't really allow for that.

 

Cerberus is a racist, human supremacist, totalitarian, terrorist organisation. It's sole purpose is not to advance the cause of humanity it's goal is to give the illusive man warm fuzzies when he thinks about all the people he's killed.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

.... as long as it doesn't involve your loved ones eh.

 

Nope. They're who I'm acting for.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

Before I proceed to coolly, logically, and efficiently proceed to dismantle your argument, I just want to express my feelings to having a new person to play with in regards to Cerberus.

 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

@HelloI'mTheDoctor

 

 

The desire for one race to be held above all others and to dominate other races (stated several times by TIM he uses the word dominate) creating a hierarchy where one race sits at the top is supremacist. 

 

 

No, it's really not. Especially when TIM also has demonstrated repeatedly that he's not out to completely dominate the entire galaxy. He's out to make sure that humanity is secure and strengthened beyond the simple means given by the alliance that end up kowtowed and retarded to the whims of the Council, who themselves enforce their own dominance and supremacy. TIM wants an independently powerful humanity that is capable of taking care of itself. TIM never once stated an explicit desire to see humanity held above all others and physically dominating them via force as you have claimed. 

 

Discrimination against other races based on the idea that they are not of the same race as you (Omega only humans are allowed to carry guns other races are shot on sight) is racism. Using discrimination to violently supress other races in order to dominate them and impose your hierarchy (again omega) is therefore without doubt racism entrenched in supremacist ideology.

 

Well that's a good thing that discrimination isn't on Cerberus' menu. If you look at the statements at all in the Omega DLC, Cerberus doesn't allow anyone to hold firearms. That said, while they do give humans the benefit of the doubt, their primary purpose isn't to put down the people of Omega and keep them from ever threatening humanity: as it is, all other humans are under just as much subject and limitation on Omega as everybody else. And your claim about discrimination, domination, and imposition of race hierarchy is completely unsubstantiated: I don't think you quite understand the concept of pacification vs. dominance and discrimination. Cerberus is trying to keep everyone from being a threat. As well, do you really think Petrovsky, who was in charge of the entire occupation, would care that Shepard might disable the life support system of key wards on Omega that could potentially kill hundreds of thousand of station residents? He's averse to the people suffering any more than they need too. As well, do you think he'd show remorse and respect for both Nyreen's death and Aria as a person respectively? Or garner the praise from Nyreen, who is a stickler for the kind of morality I sense that you swallow in tremendous gulps? He never once has any moment given (or anyone in Cerberus really) any indication that he is at all anti-alien. Hell, the lengths he goes to protect the entire population of Omega by barring rampant and uncontrolled adjutants (even if there is the practical purpose of containment) in the zones they are located in should serve to show that he has more respect for life from senseless death and carnage than you seem to be capable of giving him.

 

The fact that they are non sanctioned ungoverned para-military outfit who openly target civilians to further their political goals and advance their supremacist ideology through intimidation of civilian populations using violence makes them terrorists.

 

 

Non-sanctioned? When did that happen? Last I checked, they were an off-shoot of the alliance. Hell, any galactic mercenary group is 'unsanctioned'. Or any colonial militia. And openly targeting civilians? To further what goals? By that point it's open war, and they're trying to create a means to stop and control the Reapers. You're throwing 'supremacist' around like the words about to go out of fashion. I thought (and it's more than thinking but knowing) that their entire purpose was to create a means to protect and defend humanity from the trials of being a space faring race in a dangerous universe. And the use of certain methods for scientific purposes does not equate to the means used by a terrorist organization for stated terrorist agenda's. Cerberus isn't trying to make a political statement, they're trying to achieve a scientific progression. Your definition of terrorism is incorrect. Speaking from experience fighting terrorists first-hand, Cerberus aren't terrorists by any sense of the word.

 

Cerberus is a racist organisation dedicated to human supremacy through violent suppression of their opponents often civilians both human and alien. No opposition to their ideology will be tolerated and dissent is quashed through violent means this makes them totalitarian in nature.

 

 

 

Are you a broken record or something? You've repeated yourself three times now. Are you capable of coming up with more points in an argument? And simply put, that isn't the case. What evidence do I give you? Their entire history prior to the Reaper war. If Cerberus was to act the way you described, they'd 1) have to be in power, 2) have taken the very actions you accused them of on Shepard, the Council, the alliance, or any group at all involved against them. In fact, they clearly acknowledge that not many people agree with them in any case. You think TIM would have tolerated dissent from Shepard, or Jacob, or any other person on the crew if he felt this way in ME2? 

 

The running of death camps (sanctuary) for the express purposes of experimentation and furthering their overall goals (violently) combined with the above points could almost give you the right to use the words "Space Nazi's from the distant future" but the real world comparison and the overuse of the analogy don't really allow for that.

 

 

The use of said methods is actually quite an acute estimation of how to conduct an experiment on a budget and when pressed for time. The experimentation on living subjects gets them viable results which actually work. For that I commend them. Plus, it eliminates fluff and excess population that would otherwise be a drain on resources that could be going to more useful endeavors. Plus, you seem to be forgetting that by the point in the game that violence becomes a calling card, TIM himself has already long since been indoctrinated. But regardless, 'Space Nazi's' is simply an extension of Godwin's Law. I could argue the point further, but I don't need too: you've already defeated it by making said analogue to Nazi Germany. 

 

 

 Cerberus is a racist, human supremacist, totalitarian, terrorist organisation. It's sole purpose is not to advance the cause of humanity it's goal is to give the illusive man warm fuzzies when he thinks about all the people he's killed.

 

 

 

That's a fabrication on your part, considering that TIM's goals and methods do very much help advance humanity and further their goals, and your characterization of him personally is completely inconsistent with any portrayal or mention of his psychology by any person in the game. It's a petulant, self-righteous, morally myopic ignoramus that tries to claim otherwise. As you do. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Cerberus is an idea. You can't kill an idea. It stands for the advancement of humanity, nothing less, nothing more.

 

The Illusive Man became indoctrinated. That much is obvious. What needed to be done was to root out the indoctrinated part of Cerberus and put someone like Miranda Lawson in charge of the organization. Miranda was no goodie two shoes. She was ruthless, calculating, and highly intelligent.

 

I think the indoctrinaton made TIM short sighted. He could have shown Shepard a bit more trust on the missions. I seriously doubt the Collectors would have been tipped off, unless we're really dealing with the Shepard who thought Asari needed other species to reproduce. I think that if he'd done that given all of the resources he invested, he might have had Shepard around for investigating the Mars Archives, and other important missions. He may even have gotten Shepard to buy into the idea of controlling the reapers.

[ZipZap2000]

@helloi'mthedoctor

 

Your assertion has no basis or explanation it simply is. The rest is simply justifying their actions while keeping them separate to their motivations.

 

As far as TIM and his methods you state them without mentioning true motivations behind his actions. For example if Cerberus exists to advance to the cause of humanity why? What is the purpose of advancing humanity AT THE EXPENSE of the other species?

 

We clearly see that TIM is a dictator and he only wishes to find a 'means to an end' what end? The answer is revealed to be power (ME2 collector base. ME3 control)  "I've dedicated my life to understanding the reapers" he was on a solo mission to make himself as much like a god as possible using others as cannon fodder. Cerberus was the means, division the method, utilising xenophobia as the message.

 

There's no denying it. Racist, supremacist, terrorist, totalitarian.

 

@Alleyd it's not they are disarming them it's they are only shooting non humans. You can't look past that part, 'Human? Fine you can go. Batarian?' *double tapped for being Batarian*

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But why wouldn't you want to keep the Collector Base? Why wouldn't you want to study the technology within it? Learn something from it about how Reapers were made and perhaps find a weakness instead of throwing it away? Waste that opportunity? Never. But you needed Shepard. Shepard had the IFF... unless you didn't need the IFF because it only the software inside the IFF you needed, and your team on the derelict reaper got that for you along with enough scans of the device that you were able to build one or several.

 

Of course Cerberus was supremacist.

 

From "The Killing Star":

 

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.


2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.


3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

 

And when it came to the Council.... "The cold hard truth is this, Commander. While the reapers focus on Earth it gives the rest of us time to regroup."

 

Attitudes like that made Cerberus seem like a good idea.
 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

@helloi'mthedoctor

 

Your assertion has no basis or explanation it simply is. The rest is simply justifying their actions while keeping them separate to their motivations.

 

 

Oh I beg to differ. I take it you're not very familiar with arguments. You've just re-emphasized the points I already dismantled. You're going to have to do a bit better than that. My claims are based on the actions and implications of those actions performed by Cerberus, the personnel, and the stated goals of those personnel rather than the scant dismissal as 'terrorist totalitarians'. The next part of your statement doesn't make sense; how is justifying their action separate from their motivation? I'd have to incorporate the motivation to achieve the will to justify the action in the first place. This point is a non-sequiter, and it tells me that you aren't entirely certain to what you're talking about.

 

As far as TIM and his methods you state them without mentioning true motivations behind his actions. For example if Cerberus exists to advance to the cause of humanity why? What is the purpose of advancing humanity AT THE EXPENSE of the other species?

 

 

 

The motivations behind his actions? Simply put, the advancement, protection, and progress of the human race. Nothing less. Why does Cerberus exist to advance the cause of humanity? You're making an assumption based on a bias to say that it's immediately at the expense of everyone else, which is demonstrably untrue in the game. Cerberus is willing to advance humanity at the sake of everyone else, but that's not their purpose or stated goal. You're making a statement and not providing a reasonable view as to how or why you've concluded this, just again reiterating what you think Cerberus is doing. What you think and what is are two very different outcomes.

 

We clearly see that TIM is a dictator and he only wishes to find a 'means to an end' what end? The answer is revealed to be power (ME2 collector base. ME3 control)  "I've dedicated my life to understanding the reapers" he was on a solo mission to make himself as much like a god as possible using others as cannon fodder. Cerberus was the means, division the method, utilising xenophobia as the message.

 

 

 

 

Do we ever see TIM as a dictator? The answer to that is no. He was never in a position of power to be a dictator for starters. And he never behaved in a manner at all recognizant of any dictator I know. Or are you changing the word to mean what you want it to mean? I think you are. The end to which TIM is working towards? The advancement of humanity. In fact there aren't very many notions of collecting personal power for himself in the games. And there are certainly no personal aspirations or recognition or declaration on either his part or any other character in any material about wanting to be a god. He wants to control the Reapers to bring about an advancement and new renaissance of human (and galactic, since he was never indicated in any material to be so petty to other species as to put them down) achievement. Otherwise, your statements of means, methods, and message are fabrications on your part. I don't know if it's a desperate lie or blatant ignorance of reality, but in game and out in other material, TIM was never acknowledged to be a racist human fundamentalist dictator hell bent on becoming a god. At any point.

 

There's no denying it. Racist, supremacist, terrorist, totalitarian.

 

 

 

 

Considering how I once more tore it down, yes, there is. TIM isn't racist. He certainly isn't a supremacist given his statements and actions surrounding non-humans (why recruit or bother to ask for help if he was a supremacist?), a terrorist, or a totalitarian. Those are fabricated distortions of your own creation. Dismissed and lawyered.

 

@Alleyd it's not they are disarming them it's they are only shooting non humans. You can't look past that part, 'Human? Fine you can go. Batarian?' *double tapped for being Batarian*

 

 

 

 There is absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever in the game. You're creating a fabrication. Lying. You've just outed yourself to the BSN as a liar. And deluded. Congratulations.

[ZipZap2000]

And now that the name calling has begun I'll take my leave. Thanks for the chat.

[ImaginaryMatter]

At the risk of sounding like a Cerberus apologist; I'd like to make some points on some of the mission threads from the franchise that seem to justify the labels Terrorist. Many accusations are levied at the door of Cerberus, but what were they actually guilty of; and were their actions "evil" or unjustifiable.

 

Akuze

This investigation was initiated when the pioneer team on the colony disappeared. Admiral Kohaku despatched a force of Marines to investigate and they were virtually wiped out by a thresher maw attack; a being unknown to humanity prior to the attempts to colonise Akuze. Shep's side mission reveals the presence of Cerberus; an alliance black ops unit gone "rogue".

 

I would think in the situation of a colony disappearance that it was an imperative to establish a cause; both from a military and scientific perspective. Both sets of investigative team would be most effective operating in a co-ordinated manner, but it is easy to infer that this was not the case. Cerberus machinations? Maybe not, it wouldn't be the first time that a large Human military bureaucracy like the Alliance would suffer from having different chains of command and mission parameters. The failure to coordinate the mission teams lies with the commanding officer, Admiral Kohaku.

 

Then you have the attack itself. The WIKI states that the marine force camped at the site of the original attack on the colony. This seems a very bad tactical choice of site for a base of operations by the ground force commander. There was something in the locality that was dangerous, better call would have been to despatch probes and retire to ship and observe. Who made this decision is not indicated, but I would think that the ground force commander sought authorization from his strategic command.

 

Kohaku was incompetent in his actions regarding Akuze. He did not co-ordinate both sides of the investigation effectively. The decision for deploying the force on the ground in hostile territory was tactically in error and a force commander assumes responsibility for his officers tactical awareness. Unfortunately he didn't accept that his own actions were at fault anywhere near enough for me to ignore.

 

Then you have Corporal Toombs and he is making an accusation that Cerberus had been "running tests on the Thresher Maws. They let those things hit us just to watch and study"

 

Here's the question. What could they do to help the marines during the attack? If a large group of highly trained, well armed military professionals could not withstand the assault, the scientist would only meet the same fate. They did what they could after the assault; recovering the survivors and nursing them back to health. Shepard having the strength of will to overcome the traumas of the attack. The unfortunate Toombs didn't recover as well.

 

Toombs exhibited many of the symptoms of a psychologically damaged and traumatised individual. Unable to escape the horror of his memories and transposing his fear and anxiety on any target in his sights. He was a danger to himself and to anyone that crossed him. It is sadly no real alternative but to incarcerate him into a guarded therapy regime; as was the case. He resented this and turned against aside the therapeutic effects available. He never confronted his internal fears; he did the opposite. He let fear consume him and his delusional paranoia saw everyone with the least association to his ordeal on Akuze as a threat. This unfortunate soul then went on a killing spree,; wiping out some of the most valuable Xeno-scientists in humanity and I found him with a gun to the head of another "target".

 

So the accusation of Cerberus being any way responsible for the folly on Akuze was pretty ludicrous to me. I had the word of an honour bound fool that could not accept responsibility for his strategic and tactical incompetence that cost the lives of nearly 50 of the Alliance's premier infantry force. He was fortunate he wasn't in the 18th/19th century British Royal Navy. They hung incompetent admirals from the yardarm of their ship as an example to the rest. And the testimony of a mentally deranged serial killer who patterns some of the best scientific minds in my species.

 

I think you're getting your lore a little mixed up. Kahaku was never involved with Akuze, his missing marines went to Edolus (his only stated actions before then were the Skyllian Blitz and searching for Armistan Banes). They were down on the surface to investigate a false Alliance beacon that had been set up there by Cerberus.

 

As for Akuze, the Thresher Maws were indeed set up by Cerberus for both the colonists and the marines. Not only Toombs but Tela Vasir as well confirms this. I don't have much to say about whatever military decision except for the game doesn't really adhere too closely to that kind of stuff anyway.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

And now that the name calling has begun I'll take my leave. Thanks for the chat.

 

Well, Zippo, you shouldn't have outright lied. Then you wouldn't have gotten called a liar.

[ZipZap2000]

@Alleyd not a meme there's a holo on Omega DLC says outright armed non humans will be shot.....