519 réponses à ce sujet

[Kantr]

Bioware seem to have removed that section. I cant find out about each of the races and classes anymore.

[Mirrman70]

I think it's because it was super buggy.

[Sylentmana]

The thing that people seem to forget is that the Qunari aren't just tall humans. They are a larger race of beings. They wouldn't have weaker joints like a tall human because they are normal for their race. A Qunari who is tall by Qunari standards may have joint problems and therefor easier to knock down, but not Qunari of average height, which would still be head and shoulders taller than a human. Therefore, they should have a greater resistance to being knocked down.

[Magdalena11]

Ability means a talent or a spell, like Mighty Blow or Fireball, not an attribure like CON or STR

Thank you for the clarification.  I thought that sounded pretty cheesy and am glad to see my interpretation was wrong.

[Icy Magebane]

I think the best way to go with the Qunari bonus is +Damage Resistance once Health is below 50%. 

That would make Qunari Reavers pretty powerful, assuming the spec works the way it did in DA2...  they'd be able so maintain their damage bonus for much longer without the risk of dying from a powerful attack.  Well, it would depend on how strong the DR bonus is, of course... still, I could see this being really useful for that spec.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If you are talking about Oblivion - no you don't:D

...which you dont. You mean the auto-dialogue in party banter? i read on these forums that this time we will be given the choice how to respond(or dont). I hope it turns out to be true. I hated that I was just silent when Fenris insulted Merrill....especially in romance...
....actually give us ways to respond physically in such instances:)

Actually I was talking about all of the DA2 dialogue. Because of the paraphrases, I never knew what it was I was choosing. Hawke (and Shepard) routinely said things I actively wanted her not to say.

That never happened with a silent protagonist, because I got to choose based on complete information.

[dutch_gamer]

I think it's because it was super buggy.

The whole site is a mess. I can't even properly view the site on a tablet without having only a tiny part of my browser contain the important bits of any particular page. The bottom and top bar takes up way too much space, obscuring the text on the buttons (Trailer, Latest News, etc). Not to mention the site can take some time to load.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Two things: no, they didn't. NPC's actually react to what you say now, whereas in KOTOR they pretty much ignore you until you hit the LS/DS options. That's not a dialogue, that's being read to.

There is no discernible difference between the NPCs reacting to you and them simply acting after you.

I thought they reacted just fine. I said whatever I said and then they said whatever they said. Just like real-world conversations.

Secondly, you've just proven my point. Your subsituting your headcanon for what's actually in the game. Your playing half a character.

Without the headcanon, that's all they can ever be. If we don't kbow their thoughts, then they're NPCs. They're putting on a play for us, and there's nothing left for us to do but watch.

How can you roleplay like that?

It would be fine if this were a pen-and-paper, where you literally speak for your character, but it isn't. We are playing somebody else's character, and it is the game developer's responsibility to make sure we actually have a character to play.

The job of this entire CRPG genre is to emulatr tabletop play.

The instant I think I'm not allowed to create my own character, I stop playing these games (as I did with ME when Casey Hudson explained to me the reasoning behind the interrupts).

Two things: one, if the dialogue does not provide characterization, it is poor dialogue. It's that simple. And pre-voiced game dialogue does not provide characterization.

I actually think it was a mistake for the genre to move away from straight keywords. NAME. JOB. That allowed more space for roleplaying.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes it did. And they did not respond to your character's dialogue very often. You had five or six lines that produced the exact same reaction.

That's not discernible from an in-character perspective. Therefore, it doesn't matter.

No offence to BioWare (or GameFreak, which is even worse) but that's terrible fiction.

Telling us a story should not be their primary objective.

They should be giving us a world in which we can tell our own. The authoed narrative is important background that fleshes out the setting, but it's still background.

The core story is the emergent narrative, and the player is partly responsible for constructing it.

[lyin321]

I actually think it was a mistake for the genre to move away from straight keywords. NAME. JOB. That allowed more space for roleplaying.

 

 And hopefully games like Pillar of Eternity(I hope that was its name) and Original Sin will bring enough profits so studios will continue making such games. 

 

...but Imo that is personal preferences...as much as I liked Morrowind (or Wizardry for that matter) I will never place them above baldur's gate 2 or even Dragon age 2.

If you do that's great, but the industry is big enough for multiple kinds of RPGs.

[Sylentmana]

That's not discernible from an in-character perspective. Therefore, it doesn't matter.
Telling us a story should not be their primary objective.

They should be giving us a world in which we can tell our own. The authoed narrative is important background that fleshes out the setting, but it's still background.

The core story is the emergent narrative, and the player is partly responsible for constructing it.

If that's the case then you should be playing the Elder Scrolls games. Dragon Age doesn't seem to be that kind of game. It's more about story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If that's the case then you should be playing the Elder Scrolls games. Dragon Age doesn't seem to be that kind of game. It's more about story.

BioWare historically has written much better settings, and offered much better combat gameplay. Even ME and ME2 had good combat, with that excellent pausable aiming system.

I hate action combat. What Skyrim needed was VATS.

Up until DA2, I would have happily played BioWare games just for the combat.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

BioWare historically has written much better settings, and offered much better combat gameplay. Even ME and ME2 had good combat, with that excellent pausable aiming system.

I hate action combat. What Skyrim needed was VATS.

Up until DA2, I would have happily played BioWare games just for the combat.

Im not sure why you still play BW RPG's, you always seem to dislike their modern games since they don't play exactly like BG1 & 2

[Sylvius the Mad]

Im not sure why you still play BW RPG's, you always seem to dislike their modern games since they don't play exactly like BG1 & 2

I didn't really like BG2.

And more and more I think NWN was their best game. KotOR was also excellent. As was DAO, in some ways. And the ME games have some good features (especially the first one).

The only BioWare game that has really disappointed me was DA2. But even there, they made some good choices. I really liked that narrative structure, for example. I like that there's no obvious game-spanning big bad.

[falconlord5]

There is no discernible difference between the NPCs reacting to you and them simply acting after you.

I thought they reacted just fine. I said whatever I said and then they said whatever they said. Just like real-world conversations.

 

 

Yes, there is. The NPC dialogue rarely if ever had anything to do with what you said. They continued on their predefined conversations as though nothing happened. It was like talking to tape recorder.

 

That's not reacting, nor does it resemble a real world conversation.

 

 

Without the headcanon, that's all they can ever be. If we don't kbow their thoughts, then they're NPCs. They're putting on a play for us, and there's nothing left for us to do but watch.

How can you roleplay like that?

 

Easily, given that their thoughts are revealed in the dialogue. It doesn't require headcanon. You pick the dialogue, which determines the thoughts and motivations of the character. You thus choose between several characters that are pre-defined.

 

 

The job of this entire CRPG genre is to emulatr tabletop play.

 

No, it isn't. That's not possible for one thing (although V:tmB comes really close), given the vast disparity in what the authors have to work with. A GM in a tabletop game is limited only by their imagination, a video game designer is limited by what the resources he has. A CRPG is always going to be limited in what they can do, simply because of the limitations of their medium.

 

The CRPG, be it W or J, is a radically different genre than the TRPG.

 

 

The instant I think I'm not allowed to create my own character, I stop playing these games (as I did with ME when Casey Hudson explained to me the reasoning behind the interrupts).

 

Have I got some bad news for you...

 

 

I actually think it was a mistake for the genre to move away from straight keywords. NAME. JOB. That allowed more space for roleplaying.

 

Perhaps. But ultimately irrelevant. The CRPG has moved way past that point, and we need to deal with the way it is now.

 

 

 

That's not discernible from an in-character perspective. Therefore, it doesn't matter.
 

 

Yes, it is, and yes it does. When the cruel and violent option merits the exact same response as the compassionate and peaceful option, it is jarring. And gives you the sense that you're not playing a character, but acting out the pre-ordered steps in a script.

 

Which is what video games are, but they aren't supposed to be that obvious about it.

 

 

Telling us a story should not be their primary objective.

They should be giving us a world in which we can tell our own. The authoed narrative is important background that fleshes out the setting, but it's still background.

The core story is the emergent narrative, and the player is partly responsible for constructing i

 

Telling us a story is not only their primary objective, it is their only objective. Everything, from the background details to the colour on our clothes to player participation, exists to tell this story. Granted, because it is a BioWare game there is a lot of detail variation in that story, but it's still their story.

 

We don't construct anything. BioWare does. We play in their world. We play their characters. It's that simple.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, there is. The NPC dialogue rarely if ever had anything to do with what you said. They continued on their predefined conversations as though nothing happened. It was like talking to tape recorder.

That's not reacting, nor does it resemble a real world conversation.

I think it mimics real world conversations just about perfectly.

I can't read NPC minds, just as I can't read yours.

And in real world conversations (or tabletop gaming), there are a great many things I might say, but I can't possibly examine all of them to see which I would like to use. So I consider a smaller set, and choose the best. Just like CRPG dialogue.

Easily, given that their thoughts are revealed in the dialogue. It doesn't require headcanon. You pick the dialogue, which determines the thoughts and motivations of the character. You thus choose between several characters that are pre-defined.

The thoughts and motivations inform the choice. You need to know those in advance.

That's the biggest problem with the paraphrases: they don't give us enough information about the option we're selecting. We can't know which mental states are compatible with that option until we've already selected that, and then it's too late.

If I choose anything on behalf of the PC - what to say, what quests to accept, what skills to learn, where to travel - I need to know everything about the contents of the PC's mind in order to do so. And the only way I can know that is if I've populated that mind myself.

No, it isn't. That's not possible for one thing (although V:tmB comes really close), given the vast disparity in what the authors have to work with. A GM in a tabletop game is limited only by their imagination, a video game designer is limited by what the resources he has. A CRPG is always going to be limited in what they can do, simply because of the limitations of their medium.

I'm well aware of the mediums limitations (and its advantages). I think you are overstating them.

I also think you're underestimating the preparation required to be a competent tabletop GM. You can't just make stuff up as you go.

The CRPG, be it W or J, is a radically different genre than the TRPG.

There are only RPGs. The definition of roleplaying doesn't change based on the medium.

[falconlord5]

I think it mimics real world conversations just about perfectly.

I can't read NPC minds, just as I can't read yours.

And in real world conversations (or tabletop gaming), there are a great many things I might say, but I can't possibly examine all of them to see which I would like to use. So I consider a smaller set, and choose the best. Just like CRPG dialogue.
 

 

But in a real-world conversation (like this one), I'm actually reacting to what you say, not just repeating a pre-recorded line regardless of what you say.

 

The NPCs did not react. And that is not dialogue.

 

 

The thoughts and motivations inform the choice. You need to know those in advance.

 

And you do. In the lines of NPC's, in the prologue, in the previous choices you have already made, in lines of dialogue where you have no control, in you background information...

 

Sylvius, you're smarter than me, and probably most every one else on this forum. I can do this with ease, how is it you cannot?

 

 

That's the biggest problem with the paraphrases: they don't give us enough information about the option we're selecting. We can't know which mental states are compatible with that option until we've already selected that, and then it's too late.

 

Actually, they do (for the most part, SWTOR's efforts in this leave much to be desired, though you can save-scum the conversation). And not just in the dialogue choices, but in the preceding dialogue and character interactions.

 

None of this is made in a vaccuum. It's all there. You just have to pay attention.

 

 

If I choose anything on behalf of the PC - what to say, what quests to accept, what skills to learn, where to travel - I need to know everything about the contents of the PC's mind in order to do so. And the only way I can know that is if I've populated that mind myself.

 

Yes, you do. If you've paid attention to the cues the developers have given you.

 

It's all there, Sylvius. In the NPC dialogue, in the background information, in your character's backstories... this is why pre-voiced dialogue is so bad, because it doesn't give you that.

 

 

I'm well aware of the mediums limitations (and its advantages). I think you are overstating them.
 

 

Objectively, you are not. You have repeatedly requested features and a gameplay design that isn't going to happen, ignoring the medium's limitations.

 

 

I also think you're underestimating the preparation required to be a competent tabletop GM. You can't just make stuff up as you go.

 

Nor did I say that. But a GM doesn't have to worry about budget, deadlines, marketing, audience reception, or anything else a video game dev does.

 

 

There are only RPGs. The definition of roleplaying doesn't change based on the medium.

 

Objectively, it does. A JRPG (Pokémon, for example) is nothing like a WRPG (Dragon Age) which is nothing like an MMORPG. And that's just within one medium!

 

Face it, Sylvius. A CRPG is fundamentally different than the TRPG's they evolved from. Not better, not worse, but different.

[The Night Haunter]

But in a real-world conversation (like this one), I'm actually reacting to what you say, not just repeating a pre-recorded line regardless of what you say.

 

The NPCs did not react. And that is not dialogue.

Sylvius' point is that the in game PC is not aware the NPC would have reacted identically to different dialogue choices. Thus it has no effect on the Role Playing ability of the player, as a 'hard core' Role Player would limit his knowledge to the same level of knowledge possessed by his in game representation (the PC).

 

I have no real opinion on this issue, just clarifying a point.

[n7stormrunner]

\And you do. In the lines of NPC's, in the prologue, in the previous choices you have already made, in lines of dialogue where you have no control, in you background information...

 

Sylvius, you're smarter than me, and probably most every one else on this forum. I can do this with ease, how is it you cannot?

 

 

 

I think I have the answer to this sylvius is too smart for his own good. he is too used to "logically" making a given line meaning what ever he want he can't/will not adept to the fact it doesn't and in all likely hood never did.

[falconlord5]

Sylvius' point is that the in game PC is not aware the NPC would have reacted identically to different dialogue choices. Thus it has no effect on the Role Playing ability of the player, as a 'hard core' Role Player would limit his knowledge to the same level of knowledge possessed by his in game representation (the PC).

 

I have no real opinion on this issue, just clarifying a point.

 

I know what is point is, and he's wrong.

 

The NPC did not react in a way that addressed your dialogue. At all. And a character (or even random response generators, like those of us on the 'net) would immediately pick up on that.

[Gamemako]

It looks like 50 extra health is a pretty sweet bonus, if you consider that the human gets an extra ability point to spend, which would be 5-10 hp if applied to constitution.

This is actually not as wrong as others have suggested. Console players at least are limited to 8 abilities on your bar and no radial menu, so you're at best picking another passive. There's no value to getting 15 active skills when 7 of them are unused most of the time and likely 5 are unused all of the time. Attribute passives we've seen are things like +3 to Willpower, which means that unless the constitution bonus is more than +10 HP per point, the qunari is likely slightly better off for HP than the human.

[The Night Haunter]

This is actually not as wrong as others have suggested. Console players at least are limited to 8 abilities on your bar and no radial menu, so you're at best picking another passive. There's no value to getting 15 active skills when 7 of them are unused most of the time and likely 5 are unused all of the time. Attribute passives we've seen are things like +3 to Willpower, which means that unless the constitution bonus is more than +10 HP per point, the qunari is likely slightly better off for HP than the human.

Its actually +3 to willpower + a spell buff.

 

Like 25% duration on fear effects for Inferno. So it evens out a bit. 30 HP + 25% spell/ability buff could be better than straight 50hp.

 

Hopefully they'll release more info soon and we'll get a better idea about how these all stack up.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But in a real-world conversation (like this one), I'm actually reacting to what you say, not just repeating a pre-recorded line regardless of what you say.

You appear to be, yes. And that's often the case in-game, as well.

But not always, I'll grant. But I think the same is true of real world conversations. People often respond to me as if I said something entirely different from what I actually said. And since I don't know how their brains work, I can't explain why.

But I certainly don't start claiming that they're not real (I'll concede they might not be, however).

And you do. In the lines of NPC's, in the prologue, in the previous choices you have already made, in lines of dialogue where you have no control, in you background information...

Then perhaps I require a tutorial.

Sylvius, you're smarter than me, and probably most every one else on this forum. I can do this with ease, how is it you cannot?

I don't think you can. I think you're all just guessing, but because your brains all work fundamentally the same way, you all reach the same conclusion, which you take as verification that your method was sound.

As long as everyone involved is relevantly similar, your synchronized guessing approach works fine. You might make mistakes, but as long as you all make the same mistakes you wouldn't see them.

Actually, they do (for the most part, SWTOR's efforts in this leave much to be desired, though you can save-scum the conversation). And not just in the dialogue choices, but in the preceding dialogue and character interactions.

None of this is made in a vaccuum. It's all there. You just have to pay attention.

Remember the beginning of DA2, after Bethany (or Carver) dies, there's a paraphrase available that says something like "She won't be alone."?

The corresponding spoken line is something like "At least she'll be with father now." But when I selected the option, I intended it as vengeful. She won't be alone in death because I'm going to kill all these mf darkspawn. That's what I thought the line meant. Why did I get that wrong?

Yes, you do. If you've paid attention to the cues the developers have given you.

It's all there, Sylvius. In the NPC dialogue, in the background information, in your character's backstories... this is why pre-voiced dialogue is so bad, because it doesn't give you that.

That lack is partly why I think the silent protagonist was good.

Objectively, you are not. You have repeatedly requested features and a gameplay design that isn't going to happen, ignoring the medium's limitations.

When have I ignored the medium's limitations?

There's a reason I tend to request only features that I've seen before.

Objectively, it does. A JRPG (Pokémon, for example) is nothing like a WRPG (Dragon Age) which is nothing like an MMORPG. And that's just within one medium!

Face it, Sylvius. A CRPG is fundamentally different than the TRPG's they evolved from. Not better, not worse, but different.

But all still RRPGs, and that's all that matters. Whatever makes a tabletop game an RPG is exactly the same thing that makes a CRPG an RPG.

For the record, though, I've seen a JRPG that permitted roleplaying.

[Lady Luminous]

Remember the beginning of DA2, after Bethany (or Carver) dies, there's a paraphrase available that says something like "She won't be alone."?

The corresponding spoken line is something like "At least she'll be with father now." But when I selected the option, I intended it as vengeful. She won't be alone in death because I'm going to kill all these mf darkspawn. That's what I thought the line meant. Why did I get that wrong?
 

 

This issue is having to have knowledge of common phrasing, and it can be difficult if you've never been in that situation. 

 

But at funerals, typically when someone is trying to be comforting and saying that the deceased won't be alone, it's because the deceased is in the afterlife  with their previously deceased loved ones. In this case, Bethany's father.