519 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Luminous]

Actually they aren't wedding symbols because they are pretty (emerald fulfill that better in my opinion, but I was born in May so I'm biased, lol), they are symbols of marriage because they are the most expensive gemstone, they represent great value and commitment (as in I'm going to blow 10k on a ring as a promise to love you forever). Their hardness is actually related to that (being a unique gemstone, the hardest known natural substance to man. In terms of cutting force anyway, they shatter easily enough).

 

I could see how Sylvius could have been confused, but I myself knew that middle always meant funny, top always meant goody-two-shows, and bottom was 'bad', because I was very familiar with Mass Effect, and the system was the same (substitute neutral for funny).

Thank you for the lesson, that is actually quite interesting! I do hope my comment was clear enough without that prior knowledge...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Actually they aren't wedding symbols because they are pretty (emerald fulfill that better in my opinion, but I was born in May so I'm biased, lol), they are symbols of marriage because they are the most expensive gemstone, they represent great value and commitment (as in I'm going to blow 10k on a ring as a promise to love you forever). Their hardness is actually related to that (being a unique gemstone, the hardest known natural substance to man. In terms of cutting force anyway, they shatter easily enough).

I could see how Sylvius could have been confused, but I myself knew that middle always meant funny, top always meant goody-two-shows, and bottom was 'bad', because I was very familiar with Mass Effect, and the system was the same (substitute neutral for funny).

In ME2, I had no idea what those options meant. Throughout the first game, the top option was polite, but when I tried to use it to be polite in ME2, Shepard was a huge dick to TIM. He's a notorious crime lord who has taken me captive - I want to stay on his good side.

So I arrived in DA2 already confused by the wheel.

[The Night Haunter]

In ME2, I had no idea what those options meant. Throughout the first game, the top option was polite, but when I tried to use it to be polite in ME2, Shepard was a huge dick to TIM. He's a notorious crime lord who has taken me captive - I want to stay on his good side.

So I arrived in DA2 already confused by the wheel.

Lol, that's true. Upper option is nice to nice guys, and douche to the guy who saved your life (just cause he's cereberus). Bottom is being mean to aliens and most people in the normal hierarchy, while being nice to Cerberus dudes. ME's system had some twists and turns (Paragon meant good soldier, save everyone. Renegade meant you knew best, aliens sucked, humans are the master race, and kill civilians rather than deal with hostage situations).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lol, that's true. Upper option is nice to nice guys, and douche to the guy who saved your life (just cause he's cereberus). Bottom is being mean to aliens and most people in the normal hierarchy, while being nice to Cerberus dudes. ME's system had some twists and turns (Paragon meant good soldier, save everyone. Renegade meant you knew best, aliens sucked, humans are the master race, and kill civilians rather than deal with hostage situations).

But these nuances weren't documented, and they should have been.

The design objective should be that the player, by combining information from the icon and paraphrase, will know exactly what the corresponding line will say (and what it will not say).

That's the level of information the full-text options provided, and I will not consider the paraphrases a success until they match that.

[Mirrman70]

y'all just need to stop arguing with Sylvius. You will get nowhere, trust me I have tried. In the end nothing productive will come of it.

[Altima Darkspells]

But these nuances weren't documented, and they should have been.

The design objective should be that the player, by combining information from the icon and paraphrase, will know exactly what the corresponding line will say (and what it will not say).

That's the level of information the full-text options provided, and I will not consider the paraphrases a success until they match that.

Out of curiosity, do you prefer a wheel like what is in ME/DA2 where you have a few words that may or may not be indicative of the overall feel of the choice, or a wheel akin to Alpha Protocol where all you chose was tone (Professional, etc.) and the dialogue was mostly a mystery?

[LPPrince]

y'all just need to stop arguing with Sylvius. You will get nowhere, trust me I have tried. In the end nothing productive will come of it.

 

I don't know what the current discussion is with Sylvius but I've found over the years that I enjoy discussing things with him. He offers an interesting perspective on minute and major elements of the games he plays that offer a good point for discussion. Shouldn't be about winning and losing an argument or even convincing someone to feel otherwise, just hearing someone out and thinking about their side is great.

 

There are many I'd ignore the sides of given reputations, but he's good.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Out of curiosity, do you prefer a wheel like what is in ME/DA2 where you have a few words that may or may not be indicative of the overall feel of the choice, or a wheel akin to Alpha Protocol where all you chose was tone (Professional, etc.) and the dialogue was mostly a mystery?

I don't think either approach, as you describe them, is even vaguely adequate.  The "feel" of the choice doesn't matter.  I'm not even sure what that means.

 

The literal content.  So I would prefer whichever approach does a better job of telling me that.

 

I have not tried Alpha Protocol (I bought the game twice, but I never got around to installing it).

[aTigerslunch]

@Gamemako, actually martial artists in Tae Kwon Do focus on feet placements, first ideal strike is a swift movement of front leg to take out the opponents knee. Some styles are set where balance on both legs, or front, TKD has weight to the back, that kick actually does have enough of a reach. Yes, what your saying as just diving for the legs is silly and absurd.

 

I didn't say that did I?  I just said take out the knees, not how to take them out. There are other multiple ways, that is one of the styles I did learn, and I know what to do in that aspect.

[omnitremere]

I don't think either approach, as you describe them, is even vaguely adequate.  The "feel" of the choice doesn't matter.  I'm not even sure what that means.

 

The literal content.  So I would prefer whichever approach does a better job of telling me that.

 

I have not tried Alpha Protocol (I bought the game twice, but I never got around to installing it).

 

So out of curiosity what's a game that you feel handled dialogue and conversations perfectly or at least as close to perfection as you've seen?

[Sylvius the Mad]

So out of curiosity what's a game that you feel handled dialogue and conversations perfectly or at least as close to perfection as you've seen?

BioWare's silent protagonist games: DAO. KotOR. NWN.

But if I can't have well done proper full-text dialogue, I would rather just have keywords, like Morrowind, Wizardry 8, or even Ultima IV.

This voice+paraphrase thing seems like the worst possible option, though I'll admit that Alpha Protocol's might be even worse.

[Kidd]

BioWare's silent protagonist games: DAO. KotOR. NWN.

No Baldur's Gate in there? I'm shocked, honestly. Would have thought that would have been right up your alley =)

[TurretSyndrome]

This voice+paraphrase thing seems like the worst possible option, though I'll admit that Alpha Protocol's might be even worse.

 

The sad part is, they actually have the means to give us the option to see the full text now(the caption that comes up above the wheel confirming your decision), they just chose not to because according to them, it "doesn't feel right".

[Sylvius the Mad]

No Baldur's Gate in there? I'm shocked, honestly. Would have thought that would have been right up your alley =)

Actually, you're right.

BG has one dialogue feature that places it above the others: the option to use any party member as party spokesperson.

While I think the subsequent games were better written, they can't overcome BG's mechanical advantage.

So BG's dialogue system would be my first choice, yes.

Another reason I like unvoiced NPCs, incidentally, is it allows them to use the PC's name in conversation using %charname% variables. I'd like to see that return, as well. And as NWN demonstrated, that's even compatible with voiced NPCs as long as we don't insist that the subtitles match the spoken lines verbatim (NWN's didn't).

[Icy Magebane]

BioWare's silent protagonist games: DAO. KotOR. NWN.

But if I can't have well done proper full-text dialogue, I would rather just have keywords, like Morrowind, Wizardry 8, or even Ultima IV.

This voice+paraphrase thing seems like the worst possible option, though I'll admit that Alpha Protocol's might be even worse.

I could be wrong, but you would probably hate Alpha Protocol's system.  You are never told in advance what Agent Thorton will say, and there is a timer that counts down so that you only have a few seconds to decide each time.  Unless you have a transcript in front of you or have memorized the dialogue from previous playthroughs, you must decide based on a one word description of tone that is some variation of Professional, Aggressive, or Suave.

 

I also prefer non-voiced because I cannot accept the same voice coming from different faces.  Once I decided on a look for Shepard, I had to use the same one for all playthroughs, and skipped ME3 entirely because a bug prevented me from importing that face (it also could not be replicated in CC for some reason... the preset I based him on seems to have be removed).  At most I will be able to play as 2 male and 2 female Inquisitors, and even then they will always look the same (1 face per VA).

 

That said, I am hoping that each character's race, class, and background are heavily referenced during dialogue, but of course there are only so many options that can be made available if we have a voiced PC.   I don't dislike the voiced PC exactly, but I prefer the more flexible non-voiced implementation of other game series.

[omnitremere]

Actually, you're right.

BG has one dialogue feature that places it above the others: the option to use any party member as party spokesperson.

While I think the subsequent games were better written, they can't overcome BG's mechanical advantage.

So BG's dialogue system would be my first choice, yes.

Another reason I like unvoiced NPCs, incidentally, is it allows them to use the PC's name in conversation using %charname% variables. I'd like to see that return, as well. And as NWN demonstrated, that's even compatible with voiced NPCs as long as we don't insist that the subtitles match the spoken lines verbatim (NWN's didn't).

 

Wow I didn't know BG had that.  That actually sounds pretty cool if a bit messy.  Okay so then out of the voice games(ME, DA2 or even Witcher) which one have you disliked the least? Or have they all disappointed you equally? I'm curious if there's a middle ground that you would find satisfactory or if it needs to just be flipped all the way back to BG's state.

[pengwin21]

It wasn't actually that cool, the dialogue was entirely identical for each character and often made no sense for anyone other than PC to be saying the line. I have no idea why people are pretending it was some great feature.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It wasn't actually that cool, the dialogue was entirely identical for each character and often made no sense for anyone other than PC to be saying the line. I have no idea why people are pretending it was some great feature.

People often remember the poor implementation of the feature in BG2 (where the mechanics still existed, but the writers were actually unaware of it).

I think BG worked really well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wow I didn't know BG had that. That actually sounds pretty cool if a bit messy.

It meant that could actually play a low Charisma PC without the rest of the party nonsensically insisting that he lead.

Okay so then out of the voice games(ME, DA2 or even Witcher) which one have you disliked the least?

Of the voiced protagonist games I have played eniugh to judge, I would rank them ME, DA2, and then ME2 last.

I think ME's dialogue worked better because there were fewer decisions to be made during the game, so that actually made the game worse overall, but the dialogue system was less irritating.

ME2's was worst because the presence of the abysmal interrupt system changed how the ordinary dialogue was written.

I couldn't tolerate The Witcher's combat system long enough to see much dialogue.

Or have they all disappointed you equally?

They all disappointed me sufficently that I question whether it's possible for anyone to roleplay using them.

I'm curious if there's a middle ground that you would find satisfactory or if it needs to just be flipped all the way back to BG's state.

I select dialogue options based not on what they say, but on what they don't say. I know my character's mental state, so I examine the available options and discard those which are incompatible with that mental state.

But I don't find that negative approach works with the paraphrase, because I can't tell whether the spoken line will break my character. If there's something I actively want my character not to say, how can I tell which spoken line says it (so I can not choose it).

I'm not sure how to fix it without narrowing the gap in content between the spoken line and paraphrase.