69 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

Yes. Even though the relays are damged, it didn't get rid of the reapers since we were led to believe it would. They build another one and fine tune it so it does damage the reapers and not just the relays. We have no idea why the reapers would help with rebuilding. They're still around. They're still a threat. No one knows the Sheplyst is in charge. For all we know they could start the harvest again.

Shields: Master, the organics still live in fear that we will destroy them. How will we turn this around?

 

shepalyst: Let's make the reapers popular. Big propaganda campaign, like I'm running for despot... I mean tyrant... Uh, that is president. Repairing relays, re-establishing communications and economy, shaking hands.

 

Shields: Kissing babes? 

 

Harbinger: I believe the expression is "kissing babies." 

 

Shields: I know what I said.

 

shepalyst: I like this guy. 

 

Harbinger: Hmph. 

 

Shields: You know, I miss the days when the reapers were just hilariously incompetent. You know, when Harbinger was in charge.

 

Harbinger: Excuse me? What specific time period are you referring to, Shields? 

 

Shields *mocking* : Hey catalyst, this is Harbinger. We were harvesting the colony on Horizon just like you asked, when Shepard showed up and killed all our guys. 

 

Harbinger: If I must tear you apart, Shields, I will. 

 

shepalyst *assuming direct control*: Settle down, big guy. 

 

Harbinger: That little weasel is making me look bad!

 

shepalyst: That little weasel is making me look bad....

 

Harbinger: ... master. 

 

shepalyst: Was that so tough? 

 

Shields: I am the Harbinger of your perfection. *snorts* 

 

Seriously though, there's no reason shepalyst can't communicate with the survivors after things are up and running again. 

[themikefest]

Seriously though, there's no reason shepalyst can't communicate with the survivors after things are up and running again. 

Who would it talk to? Hackett?  And if Hackett believes the thing, how would he go about convincing all the other species that the reapers are no longer a threat and that Shepard is controlling them? I wouldn't be suprised if some try to throw him in a rubber room.

[SporkFu]

Who would it talk to? Hackett?  And if Hackett believes the thing, how would he go about convincing all the other species that the reapers are no longer a threat and that Shepard is controlling them? I wouldn't be suprised if some try to throw him in a rubber room.

I'm guessing shep could communicate with everyone if he chose to, through the reapers themselves...and then back it up by repairing everything. In fact, all shep's gotta do is send the reapers back to dark space forever. Then it won't matter if the organics build the crucible. 

[Iakus]

 

I think you're underestimating what the Shepalyst would be able to do with Shepard's thoughts and memories, which translates into an organic perspective. 

 

Losing a direct connection with what you were doesn't mean you've completely lost what you are. 

 

Now, what that means for the Shepalyst in the future, after further observation and context of the galaxy's numerous problems, is entirely unclear. That's where the problems could arise.

 

Except we have constantly seen that synthetics do not have an organic perspective.  Not even the Catalyst.

 

Yes, yes I think it does mean that.  It means the Shepalyst=/=SHepard.  Its something else.  Something synthetic, with Shepard's memories with with a different perspective.

[themikefest]

I'm guessing shep could communicate with everyone if he chose to, through the reapers themselves...and then back it up by repairing everything. In fact, all shep's gotta do is send the reapers back to dark space forever. Then it won't matter if the organics build the crucible. 

Even if the reapers go back to dark space, there's no guarantee they won't return.

 

For me to pick control I would have the Sheplyst say in its speech, that after the galaxy is rebuilt, that it will send the reapers into the nearest sun destroying them and having a slide showing  them doing exactly that.

[dreamgazer]

Except we have constantly seen that synthetics do not have an organic perspective.  Not even the Catalyst.

Other synthetic processes aren't born from the direct translation of thoughts and memories from an individual, though, especially not one as integral to the galaxy's survival as Shepard.
 

Yes, yes I think it does mean that.  It means the Shepalyst=/=SHepard.  Its something else.  Something synthetic, with Shepard's memories with with a different perspective.

"Something else" doesn't mean it's devoid of Shepard. You're ignoring the gray area that the game asserts. At the very least, the Paragon and Renegade variations of Control in the EC prove that it's partially shaped and compliant to who Shepard was, though not entirely shaped. The Shepalyst makes its own decisions, which could become untrustworthy in the future, but it's working from an organic's context and perspective.

It's "Shepard", not Shepard.

[SporkFu]

Even if the reapers go back to dark space, there's no guarantee they won't return.

 

For me to pick control I would have the Sheplyst say in its speech, that after the galaxy is rebuilt, that it will send the reapers into the nearest sun destroying them and having a slide showing  them doing exactly that.

You're right, there is no guarantee that the reapers would never return, so organics build another crucible and they never have to use it. Shep has no need to stop them from making one if it makes them feel safe.

 

Everyone calms down and gets back to the business of co-existing in peace, and the crucible becomes a giant memorial. Then, if shepalyst goes insane in a million years and the reapers become a threat again, the organics can dust off the memorial and zap them into oblivion.  

[dreamgazer]

I'm not the same person I was ten years ago, yet I also am.

[Iakus]

Other synthetic processes aren't born from the direct translation of thoughts and memories from an individual, though, especially not one as integral to the galaxy's survival as Shepard.
 

Umm, the Reapers' process are born from uploaded organic minds.  Isn't that how Legion describes them?

 

Transcended flesh.  Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies.  “Each a nation”

 

Sure it's many rather than one.  But what difference would that make, wehn you're talkingabout the loss of organic perspective?

 

 

"Something else" doesn't mean it's devoid of Shepard. You're ignoring the gray area that the game asserts. At the very least, the Paragon and Renegade variations of Control in the EC prove that it's partially shaped and compliant to who Shepard was, though not entirely shaped. The Shepalyst makes its own decisions, which could become untrustworthy in the future, but it's working from an organic's context and perspective.

It's "Shepard", not Shepard.

 

The game is quite clear in this regard.  Organics and synthetics think in fundaentaly different ways.  They approach problems differently.  they experience things differently, thy value things differently.  EDI's concept of fear, disgust, and enjoyment are differnt from a human's, for exmple.

 

Heck it' was also shown that different kinds of organics and different kinds of synthetics can even be different from each other!  A krogan and a salarian, for example. 

[dreamgazer]

Umm, the Reapers' process are born from uploaded organic minds.  Isn't that how Legion describes them?

That is, but it's clearly not the same thing. It's much closer to a hybrid of the Virtual Aliens and David Archer, which preserves at least some individuality.
 

The game is quite clear in this regard.  Organics and synthetics think in fundaentaly different ways.  They approach problems differently.  they experience things differently, thy value things differently.  EDI's concept of fear, disgust, and enjoyment are differnt from a human's, for exmple.

You're not disproving anything I claimed with this, since the Shepalyst would use Shepard's specific organic perspective as its programming and its shackling.

[Iakus]

That is, but it's clearly not the same thing. It's much closer to a hybrid of the Virtual Aliens and David Archer, which preserves at least some individuality.
 

 

But again, they are organic minds.  Organic minds uploaded into a synthetic system.  By that very process, shouldn't they stil have a connection to organics?

 

 

You're not disproving anything I claimed with this, since the Shepalyst would use Shepard's specific organic perspective as its programming and its shackling.

 

Except that organic perspective is lost.  only the memories remain.  And shackling never entered the conversation.

[dreamgazer]

But again, they are organic minds.  Organic minds uploaded into a synthetic system.  By that very process, shouldn't they stil have a connection to organics?

In different ways, whether it's physical or experiential, both lose their connection to organics.
 
 

Except that organic perspective is lost.  only the memories remain.  And shackling never entered the conversation.

Why is it lost? Perspective wasn't lost in the creation of the Prothean cipher.

The parameters Shepard's consciousness created for the Shepalyst are, in essence, a form of shackling. How the Shepalyst works within those parameters and interprets them is the variable, but Shepard's still there.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Billions of organic minds uploaded with their last thought screaming in pain and fear as their fleshy forms get liquified into goo. Yeah, that's something that's going to be sane. No PTSD there. That's going to be PTSD times billions. Destroying a reaper is a mercy killing.

[Iakus]

In different ways, whether it's physical or experiential, both lose their connection to organics.
 

So how is uploading to become a Shepalyst different?

 

 

Why is it lost? Perspective wasn't lost in the creation of the Prothean cipher.

 

The parameters Shepard's consciousness created for the Shepalyst are, in essence, a form of shackling. How the Shepalyst works within those parameters and interprets them is the variable, but Shepard's still there.

 

But Shepard doesn't present parameters, only data.  Thoughts and memories.  but no connection to them. 

[Iakus]

Billions of organic minds uploaded with their last thought screaming in pain and fear as their fleshy forms get liquified into goo. Yeah, that's something that's going to be sane. No PTSD there. That's going to be PTSD times billions. Destroying a reaper is a mercy killing.

Looking at teh Control ending, I think Shepard's last thoughts would be pain and fear as his/her fleshy form is electrocuted...

[SporkFu]

Looking at teh Control ending, I think Shepard's last thoughts would be pain and fear as his/her fleshy form is electrocuted...

Remember how in Jack's LM, she talked about the scientists using pain to break down barriers so she could be even more powerful? I think Shep's ending would be something similar: Momentary pain then his mind is free.

[dreamgazer]

So how is uploading to become a Shepalyst different?

In that regard, it isn't. Doesn't mean the essence of who and what they are is lost, though. Just what they were.
 

But Shepard doesn't present parameters, only data.  Thoughts and memories.  but no connection to them.

You don't see how the data, thought and memories, translates to experiential parameters and a workable perspective?

[Iakus]

In that regard, it isn't. Doesn't mean the essence of who and what they are is lost, though. Just what they were.
 

Unless you can explain to me what "essence of a species" is in a way that makes sense, you have completely lost me

 

 

You don't see how the data, thought and memories, translates to experiential parameters and a workable perspective?

Without the personal and emotional context that goes into those memories, no.  It's just raw data.

 

Think of it this way.  Imagine you're going through a closet and find an old toy.  You recall you used to love this toy.  it was your favorite.  You have a lot of memories with it.  But now it's just a piece of wood and plastic.  You feel nothing for it, it's just taking up space in your closet.  Even the memories you have are devoid of any real connection or emotion.  It's just stuff you did as a kid.  No more.  No less.

 

What do you do with this toy now?

[dreamgazer]

Unless you can explain to me what "essence of a species" is in a way that makes sense, you have completely lost me

It means about the same thing Shiala meant in ME1: perspective.
 

Without the personal and emotional context that goes into those memories, no. It's just raw data.

Think of it this way. Imagine you're going through a closet and find an old toy. You recall you used to love this toy. it was your favorite. You have a lot of memories with it. But now it's just a piece of wood and plastic. You feel nothing for it, it's just taking up space in your closet. Even the memories you have are devoid of any real connection or emotion. It's just stuff you did as a kid. No more. No less.

What do you do with this toy now?

Your analogy doesn't really work. It'd be more like flipping through a lifetime's worth of home videos and photo albums of a family you don't really know. And you could absolutely connect dots and build a perspective from that.

[fhs33721]

Who would it talk to? Hackett?  And if Hackett believes the thing, how would he go about convincing all the other species that the reapers are no longer a threat and that Shepard is controlling them? I wouldn't be suprised if some try to throw him in a rubber room.

Seriously in control Shepard controls the Reapers and with them a Race that is technologically superior to everything else in the galaxy. I think it's save to assume s/he can indeed communicate with everyone s/he wants to.

 

And even if Shepard couldn't communicate at all in Control:

If the Reapers suddenly stopped utterly anihilating everybody in their reach and instead started rebuilding all the stuff they destroyed who the hell would be stupid enough to try attack them again after they completely wiped the floor with everyone until now? Anyone promoting to continue attacking the Reapers after they ceased fire should get a Darwin award.

 

"Admiral, the Reapers have ceased fire and want to help us rebuild. What are your orders?"

"Well the best course of action would be to attack them and possibly provoke them into wiping us out again:"

Genuis.

 

 

Also from the perspective of everyone that wasn't on the citadel during the control ending, the crubcile apparently rendered the Repers more peaceful but did nothing to damage them at all.

So why should they build a new one as it seemingly does not harm Reapers?

 

 

 

Without the personal and emotional context that goes into those memories, no.  It's just raw data.

 

Think of it this way.  Imagine you're going through a closet and find an old toy.  You recall you used to love this toy.  it was your favorite.  You have a lot of memories with it.  But now it's just a piece of wood and plastic.  You feel nothing for it, it's just taking up space in your closet.  Even the memories you have are devoid of any real connection or emotion.  It's just stuff you did as a kid.  No more.  No less.

 

What do you do with this toy now?

The most logical conclusion to your poorly chosen analogy:

Give it to some child who wants it or to some sort of charity  because it wastes my space but will give enjoiment to its new owner. Thus I am satisfied because I have more space and the toy now serves it's purpose (bring fun) for somebody else.

 

Oh no the horror of this nightmarish scenario .

[themikefest]

Seriously in control Shepard controls the Reapers and with them a Race that is technologically superior to everything else in the galaxy. I think it's save to assume s/he can indeed communicate with everyone s/he wants to.

Its still an assumption and no guarantee that it can.

 

And even if Shepard couldn't communicate at all in Control:

If the Reapers suddenly stopped utterly anihilating everybody in their reach and instead started rebuilding all the stuff they destroyed who the hell would be stupid enough to try attack them again after they completely wiped the floor with everyone until now? Anyone promoting to continue attacking the Reapers after they ceased fire should get a Darwin award.

Just becasue they stopped firing and helping  rebuild doesn't mean its permanent.  As long as the reapers are still around they remain a threat. And as long as they remain there will always be a possibility that the harvesting can happen again

 

 

[fhs33721]

Its still an assumption and no guarantee that it can.

But the opposite would be just  absurd. A race that can mind-control people, reanimate dead corpses to do their bidding, turn entire civilisations to ashes without much effort and has built a relay network that enables people to travel through the entire galaxy in the time its takes us to fly to another continent can't project a hologram of their leader somewhere? No that seems unlikely.

Just becasue they stopped firing and helping  rebuild doesn't mean its permanent.  As long as the reapers are still around they remain a threat. And as long as they remain there will always be a possibility that the harvesting can happen again

Yes the possibility exists, but the Reapers have already proven that they are the clearly superior force in this war so It would be nothing but suicidal to attack them. While they still reamin a threat it would not be wise to actively provoke them to start the harvest again. In this scenario you should try  to stay on friendly terms with them as long as possible so you have more time to actually get closer to their level of technology.

[Excella Gionne]

We should take the reapers to court and decide who gets what.

[themikefest]

Yes the possibility exists, but the Reapers have already proven that they are the clearly superior force in this war so It would be nothing but suicidal to attack them. While they still reamin a threat it would not be wise to actively provoke them to start the harvest again. In this scenario you should try  to stay on friendly terms with them as long as possible so you have more time to actually get closer to their level of technology.

I don't give a crap if they're the superior force. If Shepalyst is true to its word about protecting the many then it knows the best way to protect the many is to fly the things into the nearest sun.

 

As long as they're still around they remain a threat and there will always be a possiblity that the harvest could start again whether they are provoked  or not.

 

I should not be friendly with them, nor would I want to be.

[fhs33721]

I don't give a crap if they're the superior force. If Shepalyst is true to its word about protecting the many then it knows the best way to protect the many is to fly the things into the nearest sun.

 

As long as they're still around they remain a threat and there will always be a possiblity that the harvest could start again whether they are provoked  or not.

 

I should not be friendly with them, nor would I want to be.

I was more refering to how the situation would look like to the rest of the galaxy. If Shepard really couldn't communicate with them after control (like you said) all they'd see would be the Reapers being peaceful and rebuilding stuff. From their perspective it would be outright stupid to attack the Reapers in this situation.

 

Shepard driving them into the sun wouldn't be stupid.