494 réponses à ce sujet

[Uirebhiril]

 The Dalish heritage must be completely rejected, but the clan is still supposed to take care of the PC, tolerate their disrespectful attitudes, and entrust them with a task that could have some lasting impact on the elves as a whole.  I just don't see that happening.

 

That right there is probably the best point made. If you hate your people and their ways so much, you'd have left already. If you have no use for them, they surely have no need to keep you fed and cared for.

 

I still don't get why play an elf and then want to reject everything about them. Are people just going for the pointy ears and slight frame? If you want to be special and not follow the Creators, you can still do that - but you were still born to that clan and presumably lived with them long enough to come of age and help care for the clan as a whole such that you were trusted to be sent on a mission. Or spin it that they sent you to spy to get rid of your blasphemous grumbling. Either you'd die on the way there, or would join up with some servant elves and go to your new alienage home. Or whatever. Lots of options that make the tattoo issue pretty minor.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"All or nothing" is actually the antithesis of compromise.

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, since having to have tattoos is an "All or nothing" situation.

You either have to wear the tattoos, or not play as an elf. Some compromise. 

[TheEternalStudent]

No, they still literally have it in their face.

But in seriousness, that isn't a compromise. A compromise would be giving the option to not have them. 

... A compromise is not 'here, have exactly what you want'. It's a middle ground. You don't want tattos, not making you have them is letting you have what you want. Compromising is not making it a major portion of your character's design.

 

 

You said the Dalish were outlaws when their not, is their own choice to mostly keep away from civilisation, a Dalish elf can easily live in a city without getting arrested for having the wrong tattoo

The Dalish are the people who stay outside the Chantry's control, you can either live in an alienage or wander outside Chantry influence. So yes, the Dalish are outlaws, if they choose to stop being Dalish they are free to be any other elf.

[Icy Magebane]

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, since having to have tattoos is an "All or nothing" situation.

You either have to wear the tattoos, or not play as an elf. Some compromise. 

The compromise is allowing the PC to have tattoos so light that they are barely visible, while still maintaining a connection to the Dalish that is clear for NPCs in the game to potentially recognize.

[Sylvius the Mad]

By that reasoning, I could just as easily wonder why Abin Sur can't crash into the Dalish camp and give me his Green Lantern ring.

If you can headcanon that, why not?

If the story and characters do not follow logic, then literally anything could happen so long as it sounds like fun... this is not a desirable outcome.

If you don't think it's desirable, then you probably shouldn't do it.

A realistic fictional world is based on rules and does not arbitrarily deviate from those rules. The game is called "Dragon Age," so why can't the PC can shout like the Dragonborn? Why can't I be a time traveler? Why can't I be a half-qunari, half-dwarf raised by the Dalish if I choose the Dalish background? It's still technically Dalish, right?

Do you have answers to those questions? You should, given that you apparently think players shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Do you honestly see no value in logic and consistency in storytelling?

It doesn't matter whether I do or whether you do or whether the majority does. What's important here is that we can't be sure that every possible player does.

The goal should be to make the game fun for each individual player. That means providing options.

No game provides limitless freedom, therefore I don't see a justification for expecting this of Dragon Age.

No one is asking for limitless freedom. I'm asking why, among a bunch of optional face textures, we're forced to choose 1 rather than possibly 0.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Yeah, and according to my parents there's nothing wrong about being unable to drive. Guess what's the single most thing they harass me about?

 

The vallaslin are a mark of adulthood. Waiting two years (and it has to be at least two years, because we know that the inquisitor is between twenty and forty, and the minimum age for the vallaslin is eighteen) will mark you. It will mark you as being unable or unwilling to accept the responsibilities of adulthood, much like being unable to drive marks me.

 

Whatever the culture may officially say about it, that stigma will not go away.

Then the Dalish are even bigger jerks than I previously thought, and adds credence to my theory that they will never live with the City Elves as equals. After all, how can they be equal to children? 

 

 

... A compromise is not 'here, have exactly what you want'. It's a middle ground. You don't want tattos, not making you have them is letting you have what you want. Compromising is not making it a major portion of your character's design.

The compromise is allowing the PC to have tattoos so light that they are barely visible, while still maintaining a connection to the Dalish that is clear for NPCs in the game to potentially recognize.

 

No, a compromise is something that appeases both sides. So those who want tattoos, here you go. Those who don't, here you go. There, everyone gets what they want. 

 

 

[Shadow Fox]

"All or nothing" is actually the antithesis of compromise.

Unless you're Anders.

[falconlord5]

That design is impossible. How could you choose dialogue options without knowing the character's mind? Since the game doesn't provide detailed sets of motivations behind each possible combination of choices, the character's mind must therefore be yours to populate.

 

Easily. By paying attention to dialogue markers, hints of background information from NPC's, lore and official game-play releases, previous dialogue choices and more. The motivations are right there, laid out in the dialogue you choose. If you cannot read/listen to the dialogue provided, then I cannot help you.

 

 

I completely disagree, and I'm still wondering why it's so important to anyone to tell others how to play.

 

Does the phrase 'finite resources' mean anything to you? This isn't a TRPG, where we populate the GM's world with our own characters. This is a CRPG, where we play somebody else's characters in somebody else's world.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish are the people who stay outside the Chantry's control, you can either live in an alienage or wander outside Chantry influence. So yes, the Dalish are outlaws, if they choose to stop being Dalish they are free to be any other elf.

 

Their religion is also outlawed by the Chantry, and free mages aren't permitted within Andrastian society; there are different reasons as to why the Dalish are nomadic. I imagine there will be reactivity within the story to playing as a follower of the Creators, and bearing vallaslin of one of the Creators. It's nice to have a break from the last game, where we were limited to playing as an Andrastian human; it should be a lot of fun to immerse ourselves in the cultural perspective of the Dalish, Dwarven, and Vashoth protagonist, and have quests that are background specific (as Allan mentioned).

[Ryzaki]

That right there is probably the best point made. If you hate your people and their ways so much, you'd have left already. If you have no use for them, they surely have no need to keep you fed and cared for.

 

I still don't get why play an elf and then want to reject everything about them. Are people just going for the pointy ears and slight frame? If you want to be special and not follow the Creators, you can still do that - but you were still born to that clan and presumably lived with them long enough to come of age and help care for the clan as a whole such that you were trusted to be sent on a mission. Or spin it that they sent you to spy to get rid of your blasphemous grumbling. Either you'd die on the way there, or would join up with some servant elves and go to your new alienage home. Or whatever. Lots of options that make the tattoo issue pretty minor.

 

I'm not sure what the special remark is supposed to be. You can have a human raised in a predominately Andrastian culture and I'm pretty sure you'll be able to choose whether or not the PC is Andrastian (I foresee much wailing and gnashing of the teeth if you can't). Not sure why you couldn't do the same as Dalish with the creators without needing a special snowflake status added to it.

[Tevinter Rose]

I like the vallaslin, I'm hoping there are more options with the size and color. I want to give my mage Inquisitor a tattoo in fine writing, something similar to Merrill's vallaslin but not full faced, maybe on the forehead or asymmetrical on one side of the face.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Hahahahahahaha

You can't be serious.

Do you have a serious answer to my serious question?

How do you choose dialogue options without knowing the character's mind?

[TheEternalStudent]

 

 

Then the Dalish are even bigger jerks than I previously thought, and adds credence to my theory that they will never live with the City Elves as equals. 

 

No, a compromise is something that appeases both sides. So those who want tattoos, here you go. Those who don't, here you go. There, everyone gets what they want. 

*deep breath*
In order for the Dalish to live together with the city elves 'as equals' they have to stop being, essentially, so elven. Humans are fine with a subsurvent race, provided they submit every aspect of thier culture to the humans.

This isn't a compromise between people who like and dislike tattoos, it's a compromise between people who want to be Dalish, with everything that means, and those who don't.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Does the phrase 'finite resources' mean anything to you? This isn't a TRPG, where we populate the GM's world with our own characters. This is a CRPG, where we play somebody else's characters in somebody else's world.

I'd accept a resource based argument. Would you care to make one regarding the Dalish tattoos?

[falconlord5]

 

 

Then the Dalish are even bigger jerks than I previously thought, and adds credence to my theory that they will never live with the City Elves as equals. 

 

Really? It's being a jerk to demand that the people of your culture adhere to the standards of said culture?

 

No wonder people don't go out to vote any more.

 

As to the City Elves, I'm not sure what the Dalish would do when or if their city cousins are freed, seeing as that is entirely dependent on them developing their own culture, unique and distinct from both humans and Dalish.

 

 

No, a compromise is something that appeases both sides. So those who want tattoos, here you go. Those who don't, here you go. There, everyone gets what they want.

 

The traditional definition of compromise 'is a solution nobody likes', not one that appeases both sides.

[TheEternalStudent]

I like the vallaslin, I'm hoping there are more options with the size and color. I want to give my mage Inquisitor a tattoo in fine writing, something similar to Merrill's vallaslin but not full faced, maybe on the forehead or asymmetrical on one side of the face.

Can I play a bald mage who has the black tongue of mordor as a tattoo!?!
Please!

[Uirebhiril]

I'm not sure what the special remark is supposed to be. You can have a human raised in a predominately Andrastian culture and I'm pretty sure you'll be able to choose whether or not the PC is Andrastian (I foresee much wailing and gnashing of the teeth if you can't). Not sure why you couldn't do the same as Dalish with the creators without needing a special snowflake status added to it.

 

I believe I meant "different" rather than special, just typed the wrong word. With the rest of it, there's still no reason you can't be anti-Creators if you so want. Just because a character underwent a coming of age ritual in their clan doesn't mean they couldn't still develop their own views to the contrary. Just like the human noble was raised in a Chantry family could still turn away from that, but up until the game starts and you can make decisions to that effect you were still raised in the family and benefited from their teaching and care. Are we going to demand that the noble should be allowed to wear rags and live in a rundown shack because they don't like their family after all and would rather be a commoner?

[Ryzaki]

Now that I think about it it'd be interesting if the race you picked chose your PC's religious beliefs.

 

Qunari - Atheist

Dwarf - The Stone

Dalish - Creators

Human - Andrastian.

 

That way if you want a certain religious outlook for your character all you have to do is pick the right race.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, they are.

Then I shouldn't be able to make any decisions on his behalf. His appearance, class, equipment, amd behaviour should be controlled.

If not, he's mine.

[falconlord5]

I'd accept a resource based argument. Would you care to make one regarding the Dalish tattoos?

 

Sure. BioWare does not have the resources necessary to create an entirely seperate archetype (the City Elf) or add another character set and all its permutations to the Dalish.

 

Therefore, it is cheaper and easier to go with one character archetype (Dalish Elf) that has certain aesthetic rules.

 

 

 

Then I shouldn't be able to make any decisions on his behalf. His appearance, class, equipment, amd behaviour should be controlled.

If not, he's mine.

 

It is controlled. You get to choose an archetype (Dalish Warrior, for example) and then several characters within that archetype, but that's it. It's an illusion of choice and character creation, not actual choice or character creation.

[Ryzaki]

I believe I meant "different" rather than special, just typed the wrong word. With the rest of it, there's still no reason you can't be anti-Creators if you so want. Just because a character underwent a coming of age ritual in their clan doesn't mean they couldn't still develop their own views to the contrary. Just like the human noble was raised in a Chantry family could still turn away from that, but up until the game starts and you can make decisions to that effect you were still raised in the family and benefited from their teaching and care. Are we going to demand that the noble should be allowed to wear rags and live in a rundown shack because they don't like their family after all and would rather be a commoner?

 

Yeah different I have no problem with. Special snowflake is somewhat condescending sounding.

 

There's a good chance some of the armor ends up looking cheap in typical BW fashion so

 

Also if you want the poor commoner version of the human all you have to do is play mage since you lost your titles and what not once it was revealed XD

 

Seriously though I get why it's forced (story) but there's plenty of other things that the devs give us leeway with so *shrug* it's sucky that this isn't one.

 

And honestly if we could make a City Elf I suspect people's caring about this would plummet. As it is *shrug*

[Shadow Fox]

Then I shouldn't be able to make any decisions on his behalf. His appearance, class, equipment, amd behaviour should be controlled.

If not, he's mine.

The law disagrees ol' chum.

[Icy Magebane]

If you can headcanon that, why not?

Oh you...

 

If you don't think it's desirable, then you probably shouldn't do it.
Do you have answers to those questions? You should, given that you apparently think players shouldn't be allowed to do it.
It doesn't matter whether I do or whether you do or whether the majority does. What's important here is that we can't be sure that every possible player does.

The goal should be to make the game fun for each individual player. That means providing options.

I think that the issue becomes, "how much freedom is too much?"  The writers have to create a believable world, and as such they must adhere to their own lore as much as possible.  I can understand the desire to go beyond the boundaries of what is possible and explore the land of "what if" as much as the next person, but the bottom line is that any fictional world needs a solid foundation.  If the writer refuses to maintain consistency within their own storyline, the tale has lost narrative coherence.  I call this undesirable because there is a common standard of "good writing" that most people are willing to accept.  Going beyond the boundaries of possibility is typically best left to alternate timelines or things like the old "Imaginary Tales of Superman" comics.  If something illogical could happen at any time, then the events of a story have little value.  There is no tension or drama if random events can occur to resolve issues, and characters seem artificial if they routinely violate lore for no apparent reason.

 

I think that the apostate version of Hawke in DA2 is an example that most of us can agree on (but who knows...).  Casting spells in front of a Templar is grounds for arrest, but this was never brought up in DA2...  because of this, the story lacked a certain amount of realism and drama that could have given the apostate's plight more weight.  I can understand that this was done for gameplay purposes, but the fact remains that it damaged the narrative (though some may disagree...).

 

No one is asking for limitless freedom. I'm asking why, among a bunch of optional face textures, we're forced to choose 1 rather than possibly 0.

 

By that same token, I could ask why it's such a big deal, especially given the fact that they come in many shapes and sizes, have value to the Dalish, and can be made very light if the player decides they don't want them to appear particularly prominent...  There are many concessions being given to make them inconspicuous while still identifying the protagonist as a mature and valued member of the Dalish community.

[Shadow Fox]

Do you have a serious answer to my serious question?

How do you choose dialogue options without knowing the character's mind?

in my  first character's mind Ferelden was a lost cause after Ostagar and she and Alistair shouldn't waste time trying to save a nation that backstabbed them and regroup in Orlais.

 

Except you know I couldn't play that character and had to go with what Bioware offered me.

[Ryzaki]

Also face tats are *really* unappealing to me personally. Bleh.

 

I wonder what the numbers for DEs are gonna look like. (The one tat I used was Hawke's nutella smear and that's not really a tat.)