494 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sure. BioWare does not have the resources necessary to create an entirely seperate archetype (the City Elf) or add another character set and all its permutations to the Dalish.

Therefore, it is cheaper and easier to go with one character archetype (Dalish Elf) that has certain aesthetic rules.

That's a reason not to offer a full non-Dalish option. Not a reason to enforce the Dalish rules on the actual Dalish option.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I thought of something interesting about this "All adult Dalish have Vallaslin" thing. What about Gheyna? She is recognized as an adult since she is allowed to bond with someone, and calls Cammen a child, yet as we can see here she doesn't have a tattoo.

 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Double.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think that the issue becomes, "how much freedom is too much?"

And I want to leave that decision in the hands of the players, as much as possible.

The writers have to create a believable world, and as such they must adhere to their own lore as much as possible. I can understand the desire to go beyond the boundaries of what is possible and explore the land of "what if" as much as the next person, but the bottom line is that any fictional world needs a solid foundation. If the writer refuses to maintain consistency within their own storyline, the tale has lost narrative coherence. I call this undesirable because there is a common standard of "good writing" that most people are willing to accept. Going beyond the boundaries of possibility is typically best left to alternate timelines or things like the old "Imaginary Tales of Superman" comics. If something illogical could happen at any time, then the events of a story have little value. There is no tension or drama if random events can occur to resolve issues, and characters seem artificial if they routinely violate lore for no apparent reason.

I have long held that every playthrough IS an alternate timeline. That's why I was such a big fan of the herosexual companions.

I see the story in a roleplaying game as a collaborative exercise that involves the player. Of course there's no drama or tension in the story when you're the author.

I agree that the writers need to provide the player with the tools necessary to play in a coherent and believable world (and I object when they don't), but I don't think they should go out of their way to force that coherence (or their idea of coherence) upon the player.

Different players like different things.

For example, in DAO the PC's voicesets were generic. Every voice set said the same sorts of things. The remarks were not gender-specific. So why were the voices restricted by gender?

[TheEternalStudent]

That's a reason not to offer a full non-Dalish option. Not a reason to enforce the Dalish rules on the actual Dalish option.

Creating an entirely new origin for the elf seems resource intensive, and bioware feels a Dalish is, for whatever reason, a type of Inquisitor we should have.

 

I thought of something interesting about this "All adult Dalish have Vallaslin" thing. What about Gheyna? She is recognized as an adult since she is allowed to bond with someone, and calls Cammen a child, yet as we can see here she doesn't have a tattoo.

 

Um...
Well this was the game where not all Dalish had tattoos, but yeah, I'd call that a failing on Bioware's part, or something they can just ignore with 'characterization marches on.'

[KennethAFTopp]

I thought of something interesting about this "All adult Dalish have Vallaslin" thing. What about Gheyna? She is recognized as an adult since she is allowed to bond with someone, and calls Cammen a child, yet as we can see here she doesn't have a tattoo.

 

 

we just can't see where
 

[drummerchick]

On Cammen and Gheyna: I believe if you got them together, and talk to some of the other Dalish around camp, they express some disappointment because they were not ready yet, and I think it's Lanaya who directly refers to them as Da'len. They are still children to the rest of the clan, and were not ready to be bonded, but the hero's gotta stick their nose in everybody's business.  

[LobselVith8]

I thought of something interesting about this "All adult Dalish have Vallaslin" thing. What about Gheyna? She is recognized as an adult since she is allowed to bond with someone, and calls Cammen a child, yet as we can see here she doesn't have a tattoo.

 

 

Gheyna and Cammen are both teenagers; she also considers Cammen incapable as a match because he continues to fumble his hunts.

[KBomb]

On Cammen and Gheyna: I believe if you got them together, and talk to some of the other Dalish around camp, they express some disappointment because they were not ready yet, and I think it's Lanaya who directly refers to them as Da'len. They are still children to the rest of the clan, and were not ready to be bonded, but the hero's gotta stick their nose in everybody's business.

Yep. They were both considered children. Cammen hadn't even killed in a hunt yet, iirc. We don't know if they were put to the ritual before joining or marrying, or whatever it is the Dalish do.

[Icy Magebane]

I agree that the writers need to provide the player with the tools necessary to play in a coherent and believable world (and I object when they don't), but I don't think they should go out of their way to force that coherence (or their idea of coherence) upon the player.

Different players like different things.

Flexibility is great and I also enjoy it, but there is a limit to what players can reasonably expect from a video game.  This particular franchise seems heavily focused on storytelling, and therefore the protagonists tend to have solid, defined backgrounds that the player must work with in order for the rest of the story to make sense.  Shepard could have been a mercenary who happened to be vacationing on Eden Prime and accidentally touched the Beacon, garnering the attention of the Alliance military.  Even though this could have happened, it was impossible because of the specific path Bioware chose to take.  Shepard's role as an Alliance spec ops soldier and eventual Specter is too intrinsic to the plot to be left up to the player.  After all, Shepard could have easily come up with some reason for refusing to join the Specters, but then he would have had no authority to act within Council Space and the entire plot would have needed to be rewritten to accommodate this.  This is why there are limits.

 

Certain game series, like Fallout, are designed to maximize the player's ability to customize their characters.  Before the Lonesome Road was released, all we knew was that the New Vegas protagonist was "a courier."  This worked because the story wasn't about them, it was about how they fit into and influenced the Mojave.  Direct references to the Courier's past were vague and rarely mattered to the NPCs or the plot, but that worked well for the type of game that Bethesda (or Obsidian in the case of NV) specializes in.

 

The vallaslin requirement is an aspect of the Dalish culture and therefore I see it as a way to reinforce the PCs place in the world.  Even though it is a small detail at first glance, it is a significant part of the lore, and the lack of vallaslin would require explanation and various divergent reactions from other Dalish...  It adds realism, but as you have stated, not everyone values that...

 

For example, in DAO the PC's voicesets were generic. Every voice set said the same sorts of things. The remarks were not gender-specific. So why were the voices restricted by gender?

You are advocationg women with male voices and vice versa?  Hm... that's a slippery slope that I'd rather not climb tbh.  I'll address that if it ever becomes a reality.

[Icy Magebane]

So it makes sense that Gheyna might not have received hers yet, and Mahariel. This doesn't fly for Lavellan the Dalish Inquisitor though because we're not playing some adolescent apprentice like Mahariel was in DA:O. Much like how Hawke was almost specifically stated to be in his or her mid-twenties and the head of the Hawke family in DA2, the Inquisitor is a "leader of leaders" who are already grown, functioning adults with leadership experience before the catalyst strikes and we wind up leading the Inquisition. That means the Dalish has to have both come of age and proven his/herself to able to undergo the ceremonial passage into adulthood for the Dalish. Hence, the vallaslin.

I don't know how I missed this part... the Dalish Warden was conscripted because s/he was tainted by darkspawn blood.  There's no specific reason why Tamlen couldn't have been out with a younger friend that fateful day... Duncan was just giving us a way to avoid death and still be useful to him, it had nothing to do with Mahariel's maturity, mindset, or skill level.

[Shadow Fox]

I don't know how I missed this part... the Dalish Warden was conscripted because s/he was tainted by darkspawn blood.  There's no specific reason why Tamlen couldn't have been out with a younger friend that fateful day... Duncan was just giving us a way to avoid death and still be useful to him, it had nothing to do with Mahariel's maturity, mindset, or skill level.

Actually he flat out tells you he wouldn't offer the Joining to you if he thought you couldn't cut it as a Warden.

[Icy Magebane]

Actually he flat out tells you he wouldn't offer the Joining to you if he thought you couldn't cut it as a Warden.

Well yeah, but that doesn't mean Mahariel can cut is as Dalish.  S/he could have been too young or w/e.  What I'm saying is that the Dalish PC's role as a Warden is not dependent on their status within the clan.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Creating an entirely new origin for the elf seems resource intensive, and bioware feels a Dalish is, for whatever reason, a type of Inquisitor we should have.

No one is asking for a different origin. I'm only suggesting that they could be less rigid in their enforcement of lore for the PC within this origin.

[Shadow Fox]

Well yeah, but that doesn't mean Mahariel can cut is as Dalish.  S/he could have been too young or w/e.  What I'm saying is that the Dalish PC's role as a Warden is not dependent on their status within the clan.

Ah that makes sense.

[jlb524]

Receiving Vallaslin is a ceremonial right of passage into adulthood for Dalish. One is generally expected to receive the vallaslin ceremony when they "come of age" (whenever that is; 16? 18?) but there is flexibility in when to do it.

 

Definitely.  Pol was probably in his 20s but never got vallaslin...

 

...and he never will 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Flexibility is great and I also enjoy it, but there is a limit to what players can reasonably expect from a video game.

I evaluate all roleplaying games using the same standard, regardless of medium. That this one is in a computer rather than on a tabletop grants it certain advantages and disadvantages, but doesn't change that it is a roleplaying game.

This particular franchise seems heavily focused on storytelling, and therefore the protagonists tend to have solid, defined backgrounds that the player must work with in order for the rest of the story to make sense. Shepard could have been a mercenary who happened to be vacationing on Eden Prime and accidentally touched the Beacon, garnering the attention of the Alliance military. Even though this could have happened, it was impossible because of the specific path Bioware chose to take. Shepard's role as an Alliance spec ops soldier and eventual Specter is too intrinsic to the plot to be left up to the player. After all, Shepard could have easily come up with some reason for refusing to join the Specters, but then he would have had no authority to act within Council Space and the entire plot would have needed to be rewritten to accommodate this. This is why there are limits.

All roleplaying is storytelling. Collaborative storytelling. But the only consumer of each player's story is that specific player, so there's nothing to be gained from restricting what sort of story that player can tell.

There may be other aspects of the design that restrict the possible stories as an incidental consequence, but there's never a reason to add restrictions for their own sake. Amd that's what this Vallaslin restriction seems to be.

The vallaslin requirement is an aspect of the Dalish culture and therefore I see it as a way to reinforce the PCs place in the world.

Which is why I think we should leave in the option to have Vallaslin, even though not having them at all would save resources.

Even though it is a small detail at first glance, it is a significant part of the lore, and the lack of vallaslin would require explanation and various divergent reactions from other Dalish... It adds realism, but as you have stated, not everyone values that...

I don't think they should add any extra content to accommodate the lack of Vallaslin. Their job, as you say, is to provide a coherent setting with consistent lore. A Dalish PC should absolutely have the tattoos. So if a player wants not to have them, I think it should be left entirely up to the player to explain that.

I don't think we should protect the player from himself. If he wants to jump off the bridge, I will let him, and I feel no compulsion to ensure there's a net at the bottom.

You are advocationg women with male voices and vice versa? Hm... that's a slippery slope that I'd rather not climb tbh. I'll address that if it ever becomes a reality.

It's something I remember requesting prior to DAO's release. I had so disliked the male Shepard voice, and in fact FemShep's voice would have suited my attempted male Shepard better, I was trying to guard against a similar problem. Luckily, the male DAO voices were not all roid-raging lunatics like Shepard, so I got by.

[CENIC]

Definitely. Pol was probably in his 20s but never got vallaslin...

...and he never will

Pol was also a city elf who ran away to join the Dalish, right? Which explains why he doesn't have any vallaslin - he needs time to adapt to Dalish life and culture before he's ready for that step, regardless of age.

[JadePrince]

I don't think they should add any extra content to accommodate the lack of Vallaslin. Their job, as you say, is to provide a coherent setting with consistent lore. A Dalish PC should absolutely have the tattoos. So if a player wants not to have them, I think it should be left entirely up to the player to explain that.

 

But then people who weren't part of this conversation would play the game and criticize Bioware for not making the world react properly to their lack of tattoos when everything else about a character's choices appears to be reactive. I don't think the team is interested in opening themselves up for criticism that their world/NPC reactivity is incomplete. 

[Ravensword]

Like that?

[Ryzaki]

If you've already decided you're not going to play an elf, then why are you wasting your time and ours posting to complain about Dalish tattoos every two posts when you're not even going to play as one anyway?

 

Cause I want to? And this is a public forum and I can give my opinion on things that's going to occur in game? Much like you have?

 

If it bothers you there's this beautiful thing called the ignore feature.

 

In the meantime I will give my opinion on what is a character creation feature.

 

Definitely.  Pol was probably in his 20s but never got vallaslin...

 

...and he never will 

 

Wasn't Pol originally a CE and rather new to the dalish?

 

 

To be honest I'm just happy Elves have shoes again.

 

Agreed. That was...a rather unique design decision.

[Heimdall]

Cause I want to? And this is a public forum and I can give my opinion on things that's going to occur in game? Much like you have?

If it bothers you there's this beautiful thing called the ignore feature.

In the meantime I will give my opinion on what is a character creation feature.


Wasn't Pol originally a CE and rather new to the dalish?

He joined in the beginning of DAO

We don't know the Dalish's stance on runaways that join them and Vallaslin.