He joined in the beginning of DAO
We don't know the Dalish's stance on runaways that join them and Vallaslin.
So he's been there...like 4 years then? I guess they might've worried about him going through with it or maybe Kirkwall was a bad place for him to hunt.
Hopefully we'll learn about of that in DAI.
So he's been there...like 4 years then? I guess they might've worried about him going through with it or maybe Kirkwall was a bad place for him to hunt.
Hopefully we'll learn about of that in DAI.
Preferably through a surfacer dwarf that wants to join the Dalish.
They might have just had him working as an apprentice, and he hasn't mastered the necessary skills yet. You can talk to Pol in the Dalish Origin, prior to his arrival he's never fired a bow, let alone hunted for food a day in his life.So he's been there...like 4 years then? I guess they might've worried about him going through with it or maybe Kirkwall was a bad place for him to hunt.
Hopefully we'll learn about of that in DAI.
So he's been there...like 4 years then? I guess they might've worried about him going through with it or maybe Kirkwall was a bad place for him to hunt.
Hopefully we'll learn about of that in DAI.
A little over a year, one year for the 5th blight +
however long between the Dalish Warden getting from the camp to Lothering +
travel time from Guerrin (where Flemeth sent Hawke) to Kirkwall
Preferably through a surfacer dwarf that wants to join the Dalish.
...that'd be interesting to see if only to see why the dwarf chose the dalish over humans and other dwarves.
They might have just had him working as an apprentice, and he hasn't mastered the necessary skills yet. You can talk to Pol in the Dalish Origin, prior to his arrival he's never fired a bow, let alone hunted for food a day in his life.
Yeah that fits really well. He pretty much was on a child's level when it came to survival skills in the wilds.
A little over a year, one year for the 5th blight +
however long between the Dalish Warden getting from the camp to Lothering +
travel time from Guerrin (where Flemeth sent Hawke) to Kirkwall
He dies in act 2 though right? So you have to add the extra 3 years from the time skip?
I mean it's one year from the prolgoue, then act 1 to act 2 is a 3 year skip and act 2 to act 3 is another 3 year skip.
Guest_Faerunner_*
Pol is also pretty jumpy every time you meet him. When Mahariel comes across him, when Hawke comes across him, when he sees Merrill...
Remember, the vallaslin ceremony must be done in complete silence. Cries of pain are a sign of weakness, and showing that you can't handle the blood writing shows that you can't handle the responsibilities of adulthood. Considering what we see of Pol, does he really look like the kind who can sit calm and still as they draw his blood and tattoo it back into his face in a huge ceremony? I'm willing to bet that part of the reason he hadn't gotten his before his death is because he hadn't proved he can undergo it, on top of being a newcomer who's still getting the hang of Dalish ways. ("Praise Andraste! ... I mean the Creators." 5:28)
Cause I want to? And this is a public forum and I can give my opinion on things that's going to occur in game? Much like you have?
If it bothers you there's this beautiful thing called the ignore feature.
In the meantime I will give my opinion on what is a character creation feature.
Wasn't Pol originally a CE and rather new to the dalish?
Agreed. That was...a rather unique design decision.
It is very beautiful.
I evaluate all roleplaying games using the same standard, regardless of medium. That this one is in a computer rather than on a tabletop grants it certain advantages and disadvantages, but doesn't change that it is a roleplaying game.
Okay, but having "game" in the title doesn't mean they are the same thing. A computer game can only cover so many possibilities, whereas the parameters of pen and paper adventures are limited only by the players and game master. If you prefer one or the other, that's fine, but the difference is real and thus what works in one medium may not in the other.
All roleplaying is storytelling. Collaborative storytelling. But the only consumer of each player's story is that specific player, so there's nothing to be gained from restricting what sort of story that player can tell.
There may be other aspects of the design that restrict the possible stories as an incidental consequence, but there's never a reason to add restrictions for their own sake. Amd that's what this Vallaslin restriction seems to be.
Vallaslin serves many purposes, from reinforcing the lore to giving NPCs an easy way to identify the character as Dalish without incorporating extra lines of dialogue where they are mistaken for a city elf, starts the conversation with "you know, back when I lived with the Dalish," or whatever... Because it is based in lore and has many possible uses within the game mechanics and the framework of the tale, I do not see it as an arbitrary restriction.
Which is why I think we should leave in the option to have Vallaslin, even though not having them at all would save resources.
I don't think they should add any extra content to accommodate the lack of Vallaslin. Their job, as you say, is to provide a coherent setting with consistent lore. A Dalish PC should absolutely have the tattoos. So if a player wants not to have them, I think it should be left entirely up to the player to explain that.
If the game doesn't ask the question, then the player isn't required to explain anything. If vallaslin means something to the inhabitants of Thedas, but they never question why the PC doesn't have it, then the story is in violation of the lore. Repeat that enough times and things stop making sense, although I can see the appeal of not being looked down on or not taken seriously by Dalish who see you as a child. Giving the player too much influence over what matters to the inhabitants of the world makes for a weak story overall.
I don't think we should protect the player from himself. If he wants to jump off the bridge, I will let him, and I feel no compulsion to ensure there's a net at the bottom.
The only logical outcome of forgoing vallaslin is if the game ends immediately upon exiting character creation because the Keeper decided your PC wasn't ready and found a better candidate for the job.
It is very beautiful.
XD
I still sometimes put Fenris in control to watch his weird prancing with his barefeet. It's adorable :3 deadly but adorable.
But yeah I hope all Inquisitors can have very nice boots. Preferably sharp and heavy enough to do some damage. :3
I'd like riding shoes while on the horse but sadly that's probably too much work for such a minor detail.
But seriously agreed on those who said the definitions should be in the game. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be. =/ If players must have the tats they should at least know what they mean.
They're also confirmed to be mandatory for Elven Inquisitors
XD
I still sometimes put Fenris in control to watch his weird prancing with his barefeet. It's adorable :3 deadly but adorable.
But yeah I hope all Inquisitors can have very nice boots. Preferably sharp and heavy enough to do some damage. :3
I'd like riding shoes while on the horse but sadly that's probably too much work for such a minor detail.
But seriously agreed on those who said the definitions should be in the game. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be. =/ If players must have the tats they should at least know what they mean.
I'm hoping my Elf Rogue quizzy gets the same tailor as Marian Hawke
Ooh Yeaaah. 
I'm hoping my Elf Rogue quizzy gets the same tailor as Marian Hawke
Ooh Yeaaah.
XD
That's a really good cosplay.
And I do hope we get lovely armors. I'm liking what I see so far but I'm still on the lookout for abominations like the dalish leather armor. I'm watching you devs. =[
The armor is supposed to have slight variations according to race right? So maybe elven helmets have some symbols of their gods on them or something? (I doubt it'd match the Vallaslin unless you went hunting for a particularly helmet but it could be a nice touch).
XD
That's a really good cosplay.
And I do hope we get lovely armors. I'm liking what I see so far but I'm still on the lookout for abominations like the dalish leather armor. I'm watching you devs. =[
The armor is supposed to have slight variations according to race right? So maybe elven helmets have some symbols of their gods on them or something? (I doubt it'd match the Vallaslin unless you went hunting for a particularly helmet but it could be a nice touch).
Yes it is she looks almost like the character.
Ahhh im a bit disappointed but hopefully theyll have more subtle tattoos.
The picture of the elven mage Inquisitor had a fairly small vallaslin design on her face, so that will likely be the case.
That's a reason not to offer a full non-Dalish option. Not a reason to enforce the Dalish rules on the actual Dalish option.
Still batting a zero, Sylvius.
In order for the Dalish elf to not have tattoos, they'd need to develop a full character (dialogue choices, motive, NPC reactions, explanations of how it fits the lore, etc. All of which the game, not you, provides) for no apparent gain. That includes, if all Dalish elves are tattooed, a whole new set of character models. This is massively resource intensive, whereas simplifying it to one character archetype, with all the attendant rules, is significantly less expensive.
And I hope you noticed the inherent contradiction in your words. Enforcing the Dalish rules on the Dalish option is what makes them Dalish, as opposed to City Elves. Dwarves can't do magic, Dalish get tats, Mages wield staves.
You get the idea.
As long as we're open about the fact that decisions like these are made for reasons like that.But then people who weren't part of this conversation would play the game and criticize Bioware for not making the world react properly to their lack of tattoos when everything else about a character's choices appears to be reactive. I don't think the team is interested in opening themselves up for criticism that their world/NPC reactivity is incomplete.
As long as we're open about the fact that decisions like these are made for reasons like that.
Nice job of cherry picking a reason that marginalizes all of the legitimate, in-game concerns...
And I've just said that they shouldn't do that. If a player decides to ruin his game, let him. They shouldn't waste a bunch of resources supporting the choice of some lone crackpot who does something crazy.Still batting a zero, Sylvius.
In order for the Dalish elf to not have tattoos, they'd need to develop a full character (dialogue choices, motive, NPC reactions, explanations of how it fits the lore, etc. All of which the game, not you, provides) for no apparent gain.
Why do we care about enforcing that in someone else's game?And I hope you noticed the inherent contradiction in your words. Enforcing the Dalish rules on the Dalish option is what makes them Dalish, as opposed to City Elves. Dwarves can't do magic, Dalish get tats, Mages wield staves.
There aren't any. Nothing about allowing this freedom changes anything at all for the players who don't want it.
*deep breath*
In order for the Dalish to live together with the city elves 'as equals' they have to stop being, essentially, so elven. Humans are fine with a subsurvent race, provided they submit every aspect of thier culture to the humans.
This isn't a compromise between people who like and dislike tattoos, it's a compromise between people who want to be Dalish, with everything that means, and those who don't.
I was talking about if/when they get a homeland.
You're right, it is a compromise between people who want to be Dalish and people who don't want to be Dalish but wish to play as an Elf.
Really? It's being a jerk to demand that the people of your culture adhere to the standards of said culture?
No wonder people don't go out to vote any more.
As to the City Elves, I'm not sure what the Dalish would do when or if their city cousins are freed, seeing as that is entirely dependent on them developing their own culture, unique and distinct from both humans and Dalish.
The traditional definition of compromise 'is a solution nobody likes', not one that appeases both sides.
Yes, harassing someone to get on with doing something while saying it is fine to take their time is being a jerk.
Oh, I know what the Dalish will do. They flat out tell you. They are going to 'reeducate' their City Elf cousins.
You are correct in the definition of compromise. However that makes this not a compromise since one side is getting exactly what they want.
That is still irrelevant. A Keeper's duty is to be a keeper and protector of dalish lore, tradition and ritual. It would be pretty lore breaking to have the future Keeper shun those very traditions in which they were chosen to protect and keep sacred.
That has nothing to do with what I was talking about in the post you quoted. I think you got conversations crossed.
As for Gheyna, if she was still a child why was she eligible for bonding as soon as Cammen completed his hunt? Shouldn't she still have to do her rite of passage? That or apparently the Dalish allow children to marry, in which case why did Cammen need to do anything?
Yes, harassing someone to get on with doing something while saying it is fine to take their time is being a jerk.
I don't think it's an issue of harassment; the vallaslin are a part of Dalish culture, and an important facet that demonstrates how the People won't surrender their beliefs and traditions ever again.
Oh, I know what the Dalish will do. They flat out tell you. They are going to 'reeducate' their City Elf cousins.
Well, the Dalish want to teach their city brethren about elven lore, their history, and other aspects of elven culture that have been lost because they've lived in human cities. However, it's entirely voluntary, which is why people like Arianni, Velanna, and Merrill are able to leave. If you're looking get into a nuanced debate on your view about the Dalish and a hypothetical elven homeland, you might be better served making a different thread from the 'vallaslin' thread.
As for Gheyna, if she was still a child why was she eligible for bonding as soon as Cammen completed his hunt? Shouldn't she still have to do her rite of passage? That or apparently the Dalish allow children to marry, in which case why did Cammen need to do anything?
There's no indication Gheyna and Cammen are going to marry immediately. The quest is a matter of Gheyna initially resisting the idea of being with Cammen because he continues to do poorly in his hunts, and she suspects a future with him wouldn't work out as a result.
I don't think it's an issue of harassment; the vallaslin are a part of Dalish culture, and an important facet that demonstrates how the People won't surrender their beliefs and traditions ever again.
Telling a young Dalish that "It is okay if you need to take your time" but then constantly going" So why haven't you done it yet?" is harassment.
Well, the Dalish want to teach their city brethren about elven lore, their history, and other aspects of elven culture that have been lost because they've lived in human cities. However, it's entirely voluntary, which is why people like Arianni, Velanna, and Merrill are able to leave. If you're looking get into a nuanced debate on your view about the Dalish and a hypothetical elven homeland, you might be better served making a different thread from the 'vallaslin' thread.
Uh huh, sure it will. I'm sure the Dalish who for centuries has made it so being Dalish is a prerequisite for living with them will immediately drop that mindest and let it be voluntary overnight.
But I agree about dropping it. Never intended it to be a conversation.
There's no indication Gheyna and Cammen are going to marry immediately. The quest is a matter of Gheyna initially resisting the idea of being with Cammen because he continues to do poorly in his hunts, and she suspects a future with him wouldn't work out as a result.
We see that quest in very different ways.
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