494 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

 

 

Nonsense. An adult is different than a preteen, both physically and mentally. The only biological difference between a Dalish with Vallaslin and one without is that one has blood and ink in their face. 

 

Getting the tattoo is agreeing to devote your self to the clan, so I would say that counts as "super duper loyal". You could get less loyal afterwords sure, but even if you got that way the day after getting marked, that still means that for 90%-45% of your life you were devoted enough to them to give your life to them by the time Inquisition happens. 

 

 

 

 

 

For the Dalish, no tatoo = child. Being physically mature doesn't have that much to do with it (given their background as long-living elves, that makes sense). And as a child, being entrusted with a very dangerous mission important to the Keeper is most definitely a no-go. Nor would the Keeper endanger both the mission and the Dalish Inquisitor's life just to make a point about how evil the humies are. No, it makes no sense for someone who hasn't proven their aptitude to be chosen for such a task. Obviously, Bioware agrees, since the only Dalish the Keeper sends are those who have proven themselves.

 

And there are different levels of devotion. Accepting a ritual because it's expected of you and/or you love your clan or family while still not liking the ritual itself happens all the bloody time in real life. Life in society is not as simple as ''I do, therefor I am 100% obedient and behind it'' and ''I don't, therefor I am a rebel who rejects everything''. 

[Lady Luminous]

For the Dalish, no tatoo = child. Being physically mature doesn't have that much to do with it (given their background as long-living elves, that makes sense). And as a child, being entrusted with a very dangerous mission important to the Keeper is most definitely a no-go. Nor would the Keeper endanger both the mission and the Dalish Inquisitor's life just to make a point about how evil the humies are. No, it makes no sense for someone who hasn't proven their aptitude to be chosen for such a task. Obviously, Bioware agrees, since the only Dalish the Keeper sends are those who have proven themselves.

 

And there are different levels of devotion. Accepting a ritual because it's expected of you and/or you love your clan or family while still not liking the ritual itself happens all the bloody time in real life. Life in society is not as simple as ''I do, therefor I am 100% obedient and behind it'' and ''I don't, therefor I am a rebel who rejects everything''. 

 

Thank you for being brilliantly rational and stating everything that I couldn't put into words.

[HK-90210]

I don't think there is a single Dalish that doesn't have Vallaslin once they reach adulthood, so it is great they are forcing your Dalish Elf to have these tattoos. No such things as Dalish 'rebels'.

 

Not having Vallaslin wouldn't make sense at all.

 

Warden.

 

Yes, I know it was 5 years ago.

[The Night Haunter]

I think the Vellaslin is more, 'You are now an adult', than 'You are now an adult loyal to the clan'. I'm sure if you want to play someone who winds up hating the Dalish for neglecting the city bound brethren you'll have that opportunity. 

 

As for being a rebel or disliking Dalish, the Dalish travel in small clans of a few hundred, max. Wandering peoples like that rarely, if ever, have civil dissent in the way you are imagining. Only groups that actually have extensive contact with the outside world end up with rebellious youngsters who want to see all the world has to offer. Since the Dalish remain incredibly isolated it is unlikely they ever even hear tales that might make them want to learn more of the world. Knowledge is what breeds that curiosity, without any knowledge (which is the state the Dalish exist in) there is no curiosity about the outside world. Look at any insular real world group (Amish are a great example, as are older East European Gypsy communities). They have an incredibly low 'move away from the community' rate.)

 

 

Warden.

 

Yes, I know it was 5 years ago. Doesn't make it any less of a whole in the logic.

An oversight on Biowares part for DAO. Not a legitimate case in my eyes. Alternately, the Warden wasn't an 'adult' Dalish yet, and left before his coming-off-age-thingy (ritual/party/orgy, whatever it is Dalish do to celebrate becoming an adult)

[Icy Magebane]

Warden.

S/he was recruited by Duncan because they were tainted and Duncan was impressed that they survived against the darkspawn that had taken over the ruins.  Since this decision was not based on their status within the clan, whether or not they were recognized as adults by the Dalish was irrelevant.

[HK-90210]

S/he was recruited by Duncan because they were tainted and Duncan was impressed that they survived against the darkspawn that had taken over the ruins.  Since this decision was not based on their status within the clan, whether or not they were recognized as adults by the Dalish was irrelevant.

 

Hm...a fair point.

 

Still disappointed. Not enough to even create a twitter account and tweet a dev about it though. Laziness inaction.

 

Guess my Dalish rebel will just have to settle for the smallest, faintest tattoo the CC has to offer. Just enough to get the 'squares' off his back.

[Icy Magebane]

Hm...a fair point.

 

Still disappointed. Not enough to even create a twitter account and tweet a dev about it though. Laziness inaction.

 

Guess my Dalish rebel will just have to settle for the smallest, faintest tattoo the CC has to offer. Just enough to get the 'squares' off his back.

IMO that shows an admirable willingness to compromise.  Having faint vallaslin could be publicly explained by the PC as a reflection of their vanity, while they secretly are doing it as an act of rebellion as they wait for a good time to escape, betray the clan, take over and reshape them with a different set of ideals, or whatever.  There are many ways to reject the Dalish while outwardly appearing to be loyal so as not to incur the ridicule of their peers and rise in rank as any normal adult would.  Once they are free of the clan's supervision (meaning, as soon as the actual game begins), all bets are off.

[HK-90210]

IMO that shows an admirable willingness to compromise.  Having faint vallaslin could be publicly explained by the PC as a reflection of their vanity, while they secretly are doing it as an act of rebellion as they wait for a good time to escape, betray the clan, take over and reshape them with a different set of ideals, or whatever.  There are many ways to reject the Dalish while outwardly appearing to be loyal so as not to incur the ridicule of their peers and rise in rank as any normal adult would.  Once they are free of the clan's supervision (meaning, as soon as the actual game begins), all bets are off.

 

I wouldn't say my rebel goes THAT far. His stance is more that the Dalish(most, not all) are being idiotic by isolating themselves from the world. Hanging onto the past is sacrificing the future, and all that. So he's more likely to leave his Dalish life behind as he experiences what the rest of the world has to offer. Like Cassandra. Or maybe Josephine. Not sure which.

 

So he's not really a rebel as much as he has a rebellious personality. If that makes any sense. And I think he would see the vallaslin as a pointless formality, since he would know some members of his clan who have their vallaslin but are smug traditionalists who are dragging the clan down. So he only does it to placate his clan.

[Icy Magebane]

I wouldn't say my rebel goes THAT far. His stance is more that the Dalish(most, not all) are being idiotic by isolating themselves from the world. Hanging onto the past is sacrificing the future, and all that. So he's more likely to leave his Dalish life behind as he experiences what the rest of the world has to offer. Like Cassandra. Or maybe Josephine. Not sure which.

 

So he's not really a rebel as much as he has a rebellious personality. If that makes any sense.

 

Ahem... anyway, yes I see your point.  I'm only saying that even in extreme cases, rebels who enjoy the benefits of living among the Dalish can find ways to exploit the system and appear loyal.  Given the Dalish focus on preserving their ancient lore and customs, outright refusal of an important coming of age ritual will only make the PC seem unreliable, immature, and unfit for any degree of responsibility or autonomy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And besides that, I disagree with the concept of modding.

Wait, what?

Okay, if the game proves easily moddable, and you refuse to use a CC mod that lets you have no tattoo, you'll get no sympathy from me.

I intend to mod this game (indeed, any game) whenever doing so will improve my gameplay experience.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Warden.

 

Yes, I know it was 5 years ago.

 

The Warden either jumped at Duncan's call or was conscripted. His/her situation had little to do with his/her status within the clan, and more with Duncan being impressed at how good they were at killing Darkspawn.

 

Whereas the Dalish Inquisitor is explicitely entrusted with a dangerous and important mission by the Keeper. Unless the latter is an idiot, he will send someone trustworthy and proven to do this, IE not a guy/gal who is still viewed as an irresponsible child by the clan.

[Drasanil]

Yes. People read posts differently depending on who is posting it. It can be word for word, but they can think there is an entirely different tone to it if from one person than if from another. It's a fault in text-based communication. Over 90% of a message's intent comes from sources other than the words. 

 

Yup, probably because you post things like this:

 

 

I was just answering your part about "Well, your character..." in your previous post. And I'm fine being a Dalish Elf, if I can be a rebellious one. That is a compromise I can live with. But no, we're stuck with one who is a loyal servant.

 

Kind of hard not to read an undue amount of prejudice and venom in your posts when you equate being a normal functional member of one's own society to being a servant worthy of scorn.

[Mecha Elf]

Maybe because youre a spy you shouldnt have any dalish tattoo? It couldve been a possibility. But im fine with having one, I just want it to be subtle.

[n7stormrunner]

Maybe because youre a spy you shouldnt have any dalish tattoo? It couldve been a possibility. But im fine with having one, I just want it to be subtle.

 

 

we have already seen a subtlish one, just small blue mark under the eye.

[KBomb]

Maybe because youre a spy you shouldnt have any dalish tattoo? It couldve been a possibility. But im fine with having one, I just want it to be subtle.

Except you weren't raised to be a spy. As a rogue/warrior you were raised to be a hunter and as a mage you were chosen to be the First. You were only recently chosen to go to the Conclave at the Keeper's request.

The Dalish Inquisitor isn't a child, so they would have most likely gotten their Vallaslin long before being tasked with this responsibility.

Furthermore, I see no reason why they would need to blend in. I would imagine there would be quite a few Dalish there. They most likely are just listening, watching and speaking with city elves to find out about the mage/templar war and the elven uprising-- not sneaking about gathering documents and secrets like trained bards.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For the Dalish, no tatoo = child. Being physically mature doesn't have that much to do with it (given their background as long-living elves, that makes sense). And as a child, being entrusted with a very dangerous mission important to the Keeper is most definitely a no-go. Nor would the Keeper endanger both the mission and the Dalish Inquisitor's life just to make a point about how evil the humies are. No, it makes no sense for someone who hasn't proven their aptitude to be chosen for such a task. Obviously, Bioware agrees, since the only Dalish the Keeper sends are those who have proven themselves.

 

And there are different levels of devotion. Accepting a ritual because it's expected of you and/or you love your clan or family while still not liking the ritual itself happens all the bloody time in real life. Life in society is not as simple as ''I do, therefor I am 100% obedient and behind it'' and ''I don't, therefor I am a rebel who rejects everything''. 

Notice I said they were the same biologically. I was careful to phrase it that way. 

Also, Dalish don't live any longer than any other kinds of elves according to Mary Kirby. 

 

Yup, probably because you post things like this:

 

 

 

Kind of hard not to read an undue amount of prejudice and venom in your posts when you equate being a normal functional member of one's own society to being a servant worthy of scorn.

Who said that was with scorn? I have no problem with someone super devoted to serving their people, aka a loyal servant. But I don't like how there seems to only be that kind of character as an option. 

[LobselVith8]

Notice I said they were the same biologically. I was careful to phrase it that way. 

Also, Dalish don't live any longer than any other kinds of elves according to Mary Kirby. 

 

Gaider and Kirby have provided conflicting information on Dalish longevity, and no clarification has been given as to what their current lifespan is.

[Drasanil]

Who said that was with scorn?

 

 

Unless it is their actual job, calling someone a 'servant' is generally considered to be derisive and scornful. You don't need to qualify it by saying you mean it scornfully, because it just is. Doubly so in the context of voicing a complaint like 'oh great I have to be a loyal servant!' You don't call your accountant your loyal servant do you? Similarly telling your waiter s/he's a top rate serf would be a pretty good way to get them to spit in your food etc etc...

 

I have no problem with someone super devoted to serving their people, aka a loyal servant. But I don't like how there seems to only be that kind of character as an option. 

 

Whilst I'm really sorry the option to play Drizzt's obnoxious Dalish cousin has been taken away from you, you still have three other options namely human, dwarf and Qunari. And failling that, there's still likely going to be plenty of room for Dalish inquisitors to disagree with dalish stuff, just like there is likely to be room for the human inquisitor to not back the chantry despite their family's ties to it.That you don't get to play an 'in your face rebel' does not equal Bioware railroading you into being a mindless fanatic. That your Inquisitor starts off with a tattoo does not mean that they are super loyal unquestioning servants. 

 

 

[The Elder King]

Notice I said they were the same biologically. I was careful to phrase it that way. 
Also, Dalish don't live any longer than any other kinds of elves according to Mary Kirby. 
 

Who said that was with scorn? I have no problem with someone super devoted to serving their people, aka a loyal servant. But I don't like how there seems to only be that kind of character as an option.

The fact that an elf accepted the vallaslin doesn't mean he/she should be super devoted in serving their people though.
For example my first character would care about the dalish and their cause, but he'd aknowledge the faults of the dalish, and that they need to change a bit their stance. And his primary goal after the event at the start of the game will be closing the Breach, which will be above any other cause, dalish/elven included.

[cindercatz]

I think someone rejecting their upbringing - as a general rule - makes for a much more compelling character than a dedicated order taker. 

How do you jump from what I said to that? I never said a player character should ever give up free will or commit to lackeydom. We play a character who starts out as a dalish agent in this story. Hence, they *are* Dalish if that's what you choose at character creation. If an elf refuses the vallaslin, in a strict sense, they are *not Dalish*, by their own choice. It's equivalent to refusing citizenship. It's rejecting the ideas that make one dalish in the first place, and not some other elf. It's like the human noble saying, 'You know what, mom and dad? I know we come from this long line of Free Marchers, but from today on, I'm Nevarran. Hopefully they'll respect me more. What, chooores? Owwh, ok. But I'm Nevarran! So there.' So roleplaying a full honest to goodness dalish elf, rebellious or not, the tattoos are helpful to ground the character in the setting, and then if you choose, they're helpful in supporting having fun with a deeper roleplaying experience beyond that. They're not just tattoos.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Notice I said they were the same biologically. I was careful to phrase it that way. 

Also, Dalish don't live any longer than any other kinds of elves according to Mary Kirby. 

 

 

 

How is that relevant? The Dalish are doing their utmost to preserve their ancient culture, where they were long-living. It's very Dalish-y to still see physically mature people who haven't undergone the ritual as children, even after their lifespan has shortened (and we don't know exactly how shortened anyway). It was like that in ye olden days of Arlathan, they make damn sure it's like that now.

 

And again, as others have said, saying a Dalish with a tatoo = them being mindless servants is like saying every single citizen of (insert modern country X) is a die-hard patriot of said country who thinks it can do no wrong, which is simply false. It's a very simplistic way of seeing life in society.

[KBomb]

The fact that an elf accepted the vallaslin doesn't mean he/she should be super devoted in serving their people though.
For example my first character would care about the dalish and their cause, but he'd aknowledge the faults of the dalish, and that they need to change a bit their stance. And his primary goal after the event at the start of the game will be closing the Breach, which will be above any other cause, dalish/elven included.

This is an excellent point that a lot of people seem to be missing. You can be loyal and devoted to your people and your traditions while still acknowledging their faults and weaknesses and have a wish to improve things.

[DRTJR]

This news saddens me, I do not like tattoos, at all. But if we can make them SUPER feint and as close to skin color as possible then I might be coolish with this.

[The Night Haunter]

Unless it is their actual job, calling someone a 'servant' is generally considered to be derisive and scornful. You don't need to qualify it by saying you mean it scornfully, because it just is. Doubly so in the context of voicing a complaint like 'oh great I have to be a loyal servant!' You don't call your accountant your loyal servant do you? Similarly telling your waiter s/he's a top rate serf would be a pretty good way to get them to spit in your food etc etc...

Not true at all.

For example: 'I am a loyal servant of the chantry.' Is a perfectly reasonable line for a templar, who isn't a servant.

Or the generic 'Are you a loyal servant of the crown?' to anyone, including Nobles.

Servant just means someone subservient. Soldiers, nobles, whatevers are all servants to those above them (even if servant isn't their real title).

[Lady Luminous]

Not true at all.

For example: 'I am a loyal servant of the chantry.' Is a perfectly reasonable line for a templar, who isn't a servant.

Or the generic 'Are you a loyal servant of the crown?' to anyone, including Nobles.

Servant just means someone subservient. Soldiers, nobles, whatevers are all servants to those above them (even if servant isn't their real title).

 

While true, it also really depends on the tone that it is said in. Such as ""I don't want to play some loyal servant! *sneer*".