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[Hanako Ikezawa]

Gaider and Kirby have provided conflicting information on Dalish longevity, and no clarification has been given as to what their current lifespan is.

Really? I never saw Gaider's info. Can you show me what he said please? 

 

 

Unless it is their actual job, calling someone a 'servant' is generally considered to be derisive and scornful. You don't need to qualify it by saying you mean it scornfully, because it just is. Doubly so in the context of voicing a complaint like 'oh great I have to be a loyal servant!' You don't call your accountant your loyal servant do you? Similarly telling your waiter s/he's a top rate serf would be a pretty good way to get them to spit in your food etc etc...

As We Stand Midnight Clad said, there are times when saying you are a servant to something/someone is a perfectly acceptable thing to say. In the Dalish Inquisitor's case, they are the Keeper's loyal servant since they are going alone into hostile lands to get information that will aid your clan. 

 

 

Whilst I'm really sorry the option to play Drizzt's obnoxious Dalish cousin has been taken away from you, you still have three other options namely human, dwarf and Qunari. And failling that, there's still likely going to be plenty of room for Dalish inquisitors to disagree with dalish stuff, just like there is likely to be room for the human inquisitor to not back the chantry despite their family's ties to it.That you don't get to play an 'in your face rebel' does not equal Bioware railroading you into being a mindless fanatic. That your Inquisitor starts off with a tattoo does not mean that they are super loyal unquestioning servants. 

The fact that an elf accepted the vallaslin doesn't mean he/she should be super devoted in serving their people though.
For example my first character would care about the dalish and their cause, but he'd aknowledge the faults of the dalish, and that they need to change a bit their stance. And his primary goal after the event at the start of the game will be closing the Breach, which will be above any other cause, dalish/elven included.

I'm sure your right, however there is no evidence for it so it is just as justifiable for me to assume the worst as it is others to assume the best.

 

 

How is that relevant? The Dalish are doing their utmost to preserve their ancient culture, where they were long-living. It's very Dalish-y to still see physically mature people who haven't undergone the ritual as children, even after their lifespan has shortened (and we don't know exactly how shortened anyway). It was like that in ye olden days of Arlathan, they make damn sure it's like that now.

 

And again, as others have said, saying a Dalish with a tatoo = them being mindless servants is like saying every single citizen of (insert modern country X) is a die-hard patriot of said country who thinks it can do no wrong, which is simply false. It's a very simplistic way of seeing life in society.

I was addressing your point that they live longer by saying a dev has countered that assumption. And that regardless of culture, an adult is an adult barring certain circumstances. 

 

I would say any person of that nation who agrees to go alone to spy on people who have been your enemies for centuries for just a feeling your leader gets however can be considered a die-hard patriot. 

 

 

While true, it also really depends on the tone that it is said in. Such as ""I don't want to play some loyal servant! *sneer*".

Except there was no sneer. The only negativity involved was me not liking how it seems we can only be that. 

[The Night Haunter]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand!

 

Vallaslin: I wonder how many different variations there will be? Will we be able to choose color, opacity and shape separately? I hope there is a wide variety of shapes. Sometimes I like the small ones, other times I want ones that cover the entire face.

[Drasanil]

Not true at all.

For example: 'I am a loyal servant of the chantry.' Is a perfectly reasonable line for a templar, who isn't a servant.

Or the generic 'Are you a loyal servant of the crown?' to anyone, including Nobles.

Servant just means someone subservient. Soldiers, nobles, whatevers are all servants to those above them (even if servant isn't their real title).

 

Those are specific instances in the context of service to a higher power, where one is either affirming his loyal service, or being asked to, which is an inherent act of humility and devotion. That's not at all the same as telling a random/normal person 'well you're just a loyal servant', or complaining that 'woe is me I have to be some loyal servant' which are inherently more pejorative.

 

Hence why I said 'generally speaking' calling someone a servant is inherently derisive. When the king or the pope does it, which is not likely to happen to most people, it is in an inherently different context than when your fellow pleb does it.

[Lady Luminous]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand!

 

Vallaslin: I wonder how many different variations there will be? Will we be able to choose color, opacity and shape separately? I hope there is a wide variety of shapes. Sometimes I like the small ones, other times I want ones that cover the entire face.

Mhm, even though I never play elves, I still like fiddling with the tattoos in the CC. Some are quite pretty! And I like all the colours too.

 

Merrill looked especially lovely with her Vallaslin.

[The Elder King]

Really? I never saw Gaider's info. Can you show me what he said please? 
 
 

As We Stand Midnight Clad said, there are times when saying you are a servant to something/someone is a perfectly acceptable thing to say. In the Dalish Inquisitor's case, they are the Keeper's loyal servant since they are going alone into hostile lands to get information that will aid your clan. 
 
 


I'm sure your right, however there is no evidence for it so it is just as justifiable for me to assume the worst as it is others to assume the best.
 
 

I was addressing your point that they live longer by saying a dev has countered that assumption. And that regardless of culture, an adult is an adult barring certain circumstances. 
 
I would say any person of that nation who agrees to go alone to spy on people who have been your enemies for centuries for just a feeling your leader gets however can be considered a die-hard patriot. 

I don't have the quote, but it was in a panel before Mary's quote.
I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't expecting the worst (which is a reasonable approach), but that there are multiple explanation for the vallaslin.
I'd partially disagree on the fact that you're a die-hard patriot. A person can share the view of the Keeper (which I do. The mage-templar war and its possible end, since it's now clear from the trailer that templars attended it as well, involves all elves), and caring about elves in general, not only dalish. Which, by the way, the blurb suggested is something the Keeper is concerned about, so she doesn't care only about the dalish (which is great to me, after

Spoiler

the clan in TME

.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Are people still crying about having to have a Dalish tattoo? seriously, just make it faint so you can hardly see it if you really hate the idea of a Dalish elf having Vallaslin.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I was addressing your point that they live longer by saying a dev has countered that assumption. And that regardless of culture, an adult is an adult barring certain circumstances. 

 

I would say any person of that nation who agrees to go alone to spy on people who have been your enemies for centuries for just a feeling your leader gets however can be considered a die-hard patriot. 

 

 

In Dalish culture, Vallaslin = adult. No Vallaslin = child. Simple as that. Like in several real world culture, being a responsible adult to them is not being grown up physically but being accepted by the community as part of a ritual. Your age doesn't really matter.

 

And what says that your Dalish doesn't have second thoughts about the mission? S/He could be thinking ''Yes Keeper I like the Keeper and will do what the Keeper says all hail the Keeper'' or s/he could be thinking ''This is my ticket out of this bunch of backward hicks!'' Until we play the segment and see what dialogue options the devs offer us, we really can't claim that they will force us to play as an obedient servant. And since they did a pretty good job with all the Origins in the first game to give you a reason to leave your background behind, I see no reason they wouldn't allow a Dalish elf to be actually happy to be gone from their clan.

[In Exile]

The vallaslin are part of the culture of the Dalish, and that's the crux of the character - a person who is one of the People. The Dalish also refuse to adhere to human rule and follow a religion that is banned by the Chantry, so the character is an outlaw of the human order by default.

Speaking as someone part of an IRL minority there is a big difference between being excluded by others and choosing to leave your own group. The kind of exclusion and isolation you feel is very different.

Similarly, your own attidue and belief are very different.

[KBomb]

 

 

 

 

I would say any person of that nation who agrees to go alone to spy on people who have been your enemies for centuries for just a feeling your leader gets however can be considered a die-hard patriot. 

 

 

 

A die-hard patriot, or someone who doesn't want to see the people they love trapped in the middle of a war that could destroy them all. The mage/templar war will be a concern to everyone, not only those living in cities and villages, but even those who live in the wilderness. 

 

The Keeper needs to plan for the safety of her clan. When the war spills over into their camps, they need to know what to expect and what to do. I am sure the Keeper wants to gather information on the elven uprising too. This war will affect your parents, siblings, cousins, friends, family, etc. Would you roleplay a dalish so rebellious and clan- loathing that you would refuse a mission that could safeguard the people who loved and kept you safe your entire life? If so, I guess you can always let the demons win.

 

You don't need to be a mindless drone or a servant to know that some serious **** is going down and you should do as your keeper asks. Not because she has "feelings", but because when it hits the fan, you need to know what is ahead of you. 

[LobselVith8]

Really? I never saw Gaider's info. Can you show me what he said please?

 

Of course; it's from this interview, and the specific entry is: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word... occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

[pengwin21]

One must wonder if that is because the nomadic lifestyle is healthier than living in the alienages, not because of being near humans.

[Palidane]

One must wonder if that is because the nomadic lifestyle is healthier than living in the alienages, not because of being near humans.

Well, you're less likely to die of disease, but much more likely to be eaten by a bear. I would expect the life spans to be more or less equal.

[Serza]

The Dalish are also much less likely to get kidnapped from a wedding and then raped.

 

Poor Shianni.

[Lenimph]

Do we actually have a source that confirms the vallaslin as mandatory? I know it was said in this thread, but I don't see a citation, anywhere.

His name is Cammen

[Monster A-Go Go]

I find this argument interesting, since my Warden was a city elf who got the Vallaslin as a rebellious symbol of racial pride. 

 

Still, with the backgrounds Bioware have provided, it just doesn't make sense for a Vallaslin-less elf to be entrusted with such a task.  At best, it's akin to sending an unproven child - you either lack the skill, the courage, the trust, or the desire to become an adult and accept the responsibilities given to a full member of society.

 

At worst, it's sending someone who outwardly declares that they are apart from you.  They don't respect your traditions and refuse to observe the simplest of your rules.  A person like that would be given only the most menial of responsibilities.  Despite what allegiances they may profess or the reasons they give for their rebellion, they are too unpredictable to trust with tasks that weigh upon the fate of the clan.  They may swap sides, misinform, or divulge your secrets.  After all, they have always refused to fully become part of the tribe, so the perception would be that they would more willingly break with it entirely.

 

It makes even less sense as a mage, when you are Keeper of your tribe and sworn to uphold and preserve the ancient traditions.  Not only wouldn't you be trusted to spy for the clan, but you would never have risen to such an important rank in the first place.

 

It may step on a portion of creative freedom, and I understand the frustration there, but in the end, making an elf without Vallaslin is like making an Inquisitor without the Mark.  Without the Mark, you would never be given the task of leading the Inquisition.  Without the Vallaslin, you would never have been in a position to receive the Mark.  Without both, you unfortunately cannot become the main character.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To some of those who replied to me, I would like to reply but I don't want to drag the thread down by debating in circles. Just letting you know why I'm not replying to you in this post. 

 

Are people still crying about having to have a Dalish tattoo? seriously, just make it faint so you can hardly see it if you really hate the idea of a Dalish elf having Vallaslin.

People are allowed to complain just as much as they are allowed to cheer. Otherwise how will Bioware learn the opinions of their fanbase? 

 

 

Of course; it's from this interview, and the specific entry is: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word... occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

Thank you for the interview. 

So basically we have no idea if one lives longer than the other since there is opposing statements from the devs. 

[Ryzaki]

I always figured it'd make sense that the dalish lived longer than the CEs and it had crap all to do with being away from humans.

 

The Dalish have access to healing magic with the keepers. That alone would probably given them a decent boost over the CEs living in squalor with rats probably carrying all sorts of diseases among them.

 

Thus their life span is longer but it's simply because they have a higher quality of life.

[In Exile]

I find this argument interesting, since my Warden was a city elf who got the Vallaslin as a rebellious symbol of racial pride.

Still, with the backgrounds Bioware have provided, it just doesn't make sense for a Vallaslin-less elf to be entrusted with such a task. At best, it's akin to sending an unproven child - you either lack the skill, the courage, the trust, or the desire to become an adult and accept the responsibilities given to a full member of society.

At worst, it's sending someone who outwardly declares that they are apart from you. They don't respect your traditions and refuse to observe the simplest of your rules. A person like that would be given only the most menial of responsibilities. Despite what allegiances they may profess or the reasons they give for their rebellion, they are too unpredictable to trust with tasks that weigh upon the fate of the clan. They may swap sides, misinform, or divulge your secrets. After all, they have always refused to fully become part of the tribe, so the perception would be that they would more willingly break with it entirely.

It makes even less sense as a mage, when you are Keeper of your tribe and sworn to uphold and preserve the ancient traditions. Not only wouldn't you be trusted to spy for the clan, but you would never have risen to such an important rank in the first place.

It may step on a portion of creative freedom, and I understand the frustration there, but in the end, making an elf without Vallaslin is like making an Inquisitor without the Mark. Without the Mark, you would never be given the task of leading the Inquisition. Without the Vallaslin, you would never have been in a position to receive the Mark. Without both, you unfortunately cannot become the main character.

If the Dalish are a highly xenophobic and insular culture, then you're entirely right - any kind of dissent from their tradition is an unaffordable and unacceptable betrayal.

However, if the Dalish are even moderately tolerant of diversity, then someone dissenting from their culture is not necessarily a threat.

Refusing to participate in a ritual - even an important one (say an IRL comparison is a bar mitzvah) - does not suddenly erase everything about a person.

The First for a tribe might have a *very* different view for what it means to preserve Elvhen culture. Someone who, for example, says that the Dalish need to look forward and create a new nation instead of clinging to past glory, with the refusal to accept tattoos being a reflection of a philosophy to create a new elven nation rather than pine for an old one.

But - again - this is only possible if the Dalish are not xenophobes.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I don't think it has to do with xenophoby. It's simply that, if you want to be considered an adult, passing the ritual is required. You won't get thrown out because you're still Dalish, but the clan is not going to hand responsibilities over to you since you're unproven. Thus, the Keeper won't select you as his First (maybe unless he's getting really desperate) and won't send you on a dangerous mission that could be vital for the clan's future.

 

I doubt most Dalish are highly xenophobic. They don't like them nasty humies, that's for sure, but they seem too close-knit to just throw out one of their own.

[In Exile]

I don't think it has to do with xenophoby. It's simply that, if you want to be considered an adult, passing the ritual is required. You won't get thrown out because you're still Dalish, but the clan is not going to hand responsibilities over to you since you're unproven. Thus, the Keeper won't select you as his First (maybe unless he's getting really desperate) and won't send you on a dangerous mission that could be vital for the clan's future.

I doubt most Dalish are highly xenophobic. They don't like them nasty humies, that's for sure, but they seem too close-knit to just throw out one of their own.

It's absolutely a matter of bigotry and xenophobia. Again, the parallel is a coming of age ritual like a bar mitzvah. My family is highly secular. I did not have a bar mitzvah. I didn't and do not want one. But no one in their right mind would actually say I am not an adult.

There is a huge gap between the ritual and your ability to contribute to society. A society that cannot handle and will exclude ANY deviation is one that is bigoted and xenophobic.

[Giantdeathrobot]

It's absolutely a matter of bigotry and xenophobia. Again, the parallel is a coming of age ritual like a bar mitzvah. My family is highly secular. I did not have a bar mitzvah. I didn't and do not want one. But no one in their right mind would actually say I am not an adult.

There is a huge gap between the ritual and your ability to contribute to society. A society that cannot handle and will exclude ANY deviation is one that is bigoted and xenophobic.

 

That's one way to look at it, I suppose. I see it more as some sort of mandatory citizenship test; not xenophobic per se, just draconian where it comes to identity and responsibility.

 

I mean, I certainly do not think the Dalish are any better than humans. I can fully understand that they're very bigoted. In my mind it's just that xenophobia was more extreme than that.

[In Exile]

That's one way to look at it, I suppose. I see it more as some sort of mandatory citizenship test; not xenophobic per se, just draconian where it comes to identity and responsibility.

I mean, I certainly do not think the Dalish are any better than humans. I can fully understand that they're very bigoted. In my mind it's just that xenophobia was more extreme than that.

I've copied the definition from Wikipedia below:

http://en.m.wikipedi...wiki/Xenophobia

Note the discussion about "purity" of culture.

The Dalish tatoo is more than a citizenship test because it is so very value laden.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You can't really compare the cultures of Thedas (any of them) to the ones of the modern world today. They're supposed to live in a Medieval-ish place and time. Modern standards of xenophobia and secularism aren't quite the same as old ones.

[Roamingmachine]

It's absolutely a matter of bigotry and xenophobia. Again, the parallel is a coming of age ritual like a bar mitzvah. My family is highly secular. I did not have a bar mitzvah. I didn't and do not want one. But no one in their right mind would actually say I am not an adult.

There is a huge gap between the ritual and your ability to contribute to society. A society that cannot handle and will exclude ANY deviation is one that is bigoted and xenophobic.

 

Go back far enough in time and i dare say you would have had a hard time with the rest of the community for refusing the rite of passage. Basically all human societies have had a time when it was like that: conform to the cultural norm or take a hike.  Anyone expecting a nomadic hunter-gatherer society to be some liberal utopia is deluding themselves. It's a harsh life where all members are required to contribute and internal division spells doom for the whole community.

As for the tattoos....adulthood has allways been decided culturally. In our modern society the culture favors the letter of the law. Go back a couple of centuries and the line was a lot more murky. Go back some more and you have all sorts of coming-of-age rituals. So like many have said before: No tattoos= not an adult in dalish culture.No exceptions.

[Drasanil]

 

It's absolutely a matter of bigotry and xenophobia. Again, the parallel is a coming of age ritual like a bar mitzvah. My family is highly secular. I did not have a bar mitzvah. I didn't and do not want one. But no one in their right mind would actually say I am not an adult.

 

 

Go back a few hundred years and I bet most people from your community would disagree. Modern standards =/= most of human history's opinion on the matter. Hell 'highly secular' wasn't even a proper thing until a few decades ago.

 

There is a huge gap between the ritual and your ability to contribute to society. A society that cannot handle and will exclude ANY deviation is one that is bigoted and xenophobic.

 

Define deviation. Rome tolerated a whole bunch of stuff, including most forms of religious diversity, yet if you refused to acknowledge the Emperor as a god that was definitely a problem, how is that relatively minor requirement any different from bar mitzvah or the face tattoos? Similarly, I just watched a documentary on the BBC that with a straight face 'praised' the Ottoman Empire for being remarkably tolerant and diverse for 'only' having the institutionalized rape, kidnapping and forcible conversion of Christian children.