494 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Go back a few hundred years and I bet most people from your community would disagree. Modern standards =/= most of human history's opinion on the matter. Hell 'highly secular' wasn't even a proper thing until a few decades ago.


Define deviation. Rome tolerated a whole bunch of stuff, including most forms of religious diversity, yet if you refused to acknowledge the Emperor as a god that was definitely a problem, how is that relatively minor requirement any different from bar mitzvah or the face tattoos? Similarly, I just watched a documentary on the BBC that with a straight face 'praised' the Ottoman Empire for being remarkably tolerant and diverse for 'only' having the institutionalized rape, kidnapping and forcible conversion of Christian children.

"Secular" has a particular modern meaning but religious observance is something that varies a great deal. Just look at the popularity of deism among 17th-18th century intellectuals.

And beyond that, like I said in a previous post, DA adopts a purely modern morality. Xenophobia and bigotry are not portrayed as virtues even within the setting.

As for what the Ottomans did, I can't comment on what BBC program you watched. They did do a substantial amount to support religious diversity in contrast to Europe.

[Chari]

Ugh, this is just a tattoo... It seems to me you're taking it all too seriously and forget that for a teenager it's like getting a real passport as an adult. They're told by their parents and teachers how important it is and as usual kids probably think it's totally rad and cool.
An average teenager would probably think of it this way: "Oh awesome I'm finally getting the tattoo. Now I can show it off and mom will finally let me hunt on my own and stay awake all night and drink beer. Oh my god I will pass the ritual without a single moan and everyone will see how cool I am and my crush will notice me and that jerk bully Billy can suck it up I'm getting it earlier than him. **** yeah!"

[BloodyTalon]

Ugh, this is just a tattoo... It seems to me you're taking it all too seriously and forget that for a teenager it's like getting a real passport as an adult. They're told by their parents and teachers how important it is and as usual kids probably think it's totally rad and cool.
An average teenager would probably think of it this way: "Oh awesome I'm finally getting the tattoo. Now I can show it off and mom will finally let me hunt on my own and stay awake all night and drink beer. Oh my god I will pass the ritual without a single moan and everyone will see how cool I am and my crush will notice me and that jerk bully Billy can suck it up I'm getting it earlier than him. **** yeah!"

Also some are using the wrong types of cultures to compare it to, its getting odd.

[Shadow Fox]

Ugh, this is just a tattoo... It seems to me you're taking it all too seriously and forget that for a teenager it's like getting a real passport as an adult. They're told by their parents and teachers how important it is and as usual kids probably think it's totally rad and cool.
An average teenager would probably think of it this way: "Oh awesome I'm finally getting the tattoo. Now I can show it off and mom will finally let me hunt on my own and stay awake all night and drink beer. Oh my god I will pass the ritual without a single moan and everyone will see how cool I am and my crush will notice me and that jerk bully Billy can suck it up I'm getting it earlier than him. **** yeah!"

Do Dalish even drink beer?

[Chari]

Do Dalish even drink beer?

Ask Velanna

[Roamingmachine]

Of course in the ancient past, tribes were absolutely vicious with dissent. There are studies that suggest some tribes had murder rates in the 10-20% range too.

The point is that today, we look to those groups as being essentially morally bankrupt. Bioware games clearly import a great deal of 21st century moral principles in their games: basic ideas about nationhood and equality are an undeniable fabric of the game.

Turning the Dalish into xenophobic bigots - which their lore already worringly suggests they are - basically creates a huge problem for their setting because it otherwise operates on 21st century morality.

Morality is dependand on the conditions of society. What we have now is a product of a relatively safe, stable enviroment with abudant resources. Essentially, modern moral principles are a luxury. The nations of thedas exhibit some (not all) of those principles mainly because they too are, for the most part, safe and stable socities. With this in mind, it is perfectly consistent for the dalish to be much harsher than the nations.If they would have been anything else they would have died out a long time ago. Xenophobia is a survival trait when pretty much everyone IS out to get you.

[LobselVith8]

It's absolutely a matter of bigotry and xenophobia. Again, the parallel is a coming of age ritual like a bar mitzvah. My family is highly secular. I did not have a bar mitzvah. I didn't and do not want one. But no one in their right mind would actually say I am not an adult.

There is a huge gap between the ritual and your ability to contribute to society. A society that cannot handle and will exclude ANY deviation is one that is bigoted and xenophobic.

 

The Dalish are a culture focused on maintaining their traditions and faith. It's also completely voluntarily to be part of the society, and anyone can leave, whether it's a new recruit like young Zevran, or a First like Merrill. I'm not certain why this is turning into a moral debate - the vallaslin represent one of the elven gods in a ritual that's part of their religion; it's never been a question that the Dalish are about staying true to their heritage. That's the entire premise of their society, since their culture and their religion have been outlawed in the Andrastian human kingdoms; it's why they live a life of hardship.

 

You seem to take umbrage with their culture and religion. If you don't like the Dalish or their society, you might favor one of the other racial backgrounds instead.

[Hugo]

Well, I was wondering if someone still wanted to know the gods of each vallaslin, so since there's no official chart, I tried to guess which is which.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I like them but, if you don't want them, toy with the color enough and you can get it to match the skin, thus effectively no tattoo on an elf.

[Wolfen09]

think ya may have the halla one mixed up with mythal, abelas and his crew at the temple of mythal all are sworn servants of her, and have this tattoo

[Hugo]

Yeah, but if you see closely, the vallaslin of Abelas really looks like a halla (the head and horns), while the Mythal one looks like a vhenadah (the trees from alienages) and it roots. Also, this vallaslin has a close resemblance to the heraldry of the alienage from Kirkwall:

 

[Rifneno]

Well, I was wondering if someone still wanted to know the gods of each vallaslin, so since there's no official chart, I tried to guess which is which.

Because none of them are dedicated to gods, and they're all slave brandings.

[Hugo]

They represent the gods that the slave masters favored.

[LobselVith8]

They represent the gods that the slave masters favored.

Which doesn't change that these symbols represent something different in modern Thedas. Dalish vallaslin has a culturally different significance to the People than the ones instituted by Arlathan over a millennia ago. It's a symbol that they won't sacrifice or surrender who they are as the remnants of the Dales, after the loss of the elven kingdom of the Dales and the criminalization of their religion by the Chantry.

[Heimdall]

Which doesn't change that these symbols represent something different in modern Thedas. Dalish vallaslin has a culturally different significance to the People than the ones instituted by Arlathan over a millennia ago. It's a symbol that they won't sacrifice or surrender who they are as the remnants of the Dales, after the loss of the elven kingdom of the Dales and the criminalization of their religion by the Chantry.

The problem is that a large part of their cultural significance lies in the belief that they are emulating the practices of their ancestors.  Don't leave that part out.

[Rifneno]

Which doesn't change that these symbols represent something different in modern Thedas. Dalish vallaslin has a culturally different significance to the People than the ones instituted by Arlathan over a millennia ago. It's a symbol that they won't sacrifice or surrender who they are as the remnants of the Dales, after the loss of the elven kingdom of the Dales and the criminalization of their religion by the Chantry.

Yes, it does. The Bandits keep their tattoos around exactly because it was part of the ancient elven way. Its significance now is honoring an ancient tradition. A tradition that turned out to be slavery.

The Bandits absolutely deserved what happened to the Dales. They sat by and and watched, at one point the elven army literally watched the darkspawn sacking Orlais and they did nothing. No, wait, I take that back. They took the advantage to loot and raid human villages like the worthless bandits that they truly are.

And let's not even get into Arlathan. All the crying by those bandits about what the humans did to their empire and it turned out they did it all to themselves. Absolutely hilarious. The elves have no one to blame but themselves for all their hardships. They aren't "victims" any more than a man being executed for murder is a "victim." I have another word for it. Justice.

Edit: Oh, and needless to say, I'm only talking about Dalish. City elves are fine.

[stonerbishop]

I am glad/don't mind that you HAVE to have dalish tattooes this time around. It makes sense as you'll probably be recognized as Dalish by other NPCs throughout the game, and it'd be weird if you didn't have a tattoo but still got recognized. It was the same way with DAO with the dwarf commoner origin as people recognizing you as casteless without a tattoo didn't make sense.

If I remember right, there was a pop up in the cc that said 'you're breaking lore, are you sure?'
Or something like that. I like that way. More options are generally better

[Icy Magebane]

think ya may have the halla one mixed up with mythal, abelas and his crew at the temple of mythal all are sworn servants of her, and have this tattoo

Wait... so my Inquisitor had the "Halla Mother" tattoo?  Aww...

[mikeymoonshine]

The one listed as Falon'Din might actually be Dirthamen, it has a birdlike design and Dirthamen is associated with Ravens. I am also pretty sure those three are actually Mythal and not Ghilan'Nain. I would guess the one labelled as Diththamen is Gilan,Nain and the one labelled as Mythal is Falon'Din but I really can't be sure. 

[LobselVith8]

Yes, it does. The Bandits keep their tattoos around exactly because it was part of the ancient elven way. Its significance now is honoring an ancient tradition. A tradition that turned out to be slavery.

It's taken on a different meaning for the People. A Clever Name made a great post about Dalish vallaslin:

On my Lavellan that romanced Solas, I told him I was keeping the vallaslin. It's a legitimate practice in the real world, where marginalized groups who have lost their cultural practices and history to pogroms and oppressive regimes reclaim something and give it a new meaning, called reappropriation. I was appreciative of at least the option to tell him as much, as it was exactly what I wanted to say. Just because something has a negative past does not mean it cannot become something positive and meaningful in the future. I just wish it could have been addressed outside of the romance. Like Solas bringing it up to all Lavellans? That would have made more sense to me.

The meaning of symbols can change, as vallaslin did.

The Bandits absolutely deserved what happened to the Dales. They sat by and and watched, at one point the elven army literally watched the darkspawn sacking Orlais and they did nothing. No, wait, I take that back. They took the advantage to loot and raid human villages like the worthless bandits that they truly are.

Considering no one makes that claim, there's not much to discuss.

And let's not even get into Arlathan. All the crying by those bandits about what the humans did to their empire and it turned out they did it all to themselves. Absolutely hilarious.

I'm pretty sure the centuries of slavery by the Imperium is still more of an issue for them, which we know took place.

The elves have no one to blame but themselves for all their hardships. They aren't "victims" any more than a man being executed for murder is a "victim." I have another word for it. Justice.

Edit: Oh, and needless to say, I'm only talking about Dalish. City elves are fine.

I'm pretty sure taking issue with the Chantry outlawing their religion, or templars hunting down their mages, invalidates that comparison.