494 réponses à ce sujet

[TheEternalStudent]

I still think the Dalish bare more than a small portion of blame for what happened to them. Alienage's and the like only came into being as a backlash to the war. The Canticle of Shartan was only stripped from the Chant after the war as well. Point being, much of modern human/Andrastian ill feeling for the elves has its origins in what the elves of the Dales did in Orlais.

I do not, nor did I mean to express, any belief in the Dalish in being innocent victims of the human cruelty. The only ones that can possibly claim that are the Arlathan elves, and we know nothing about the political climate that far back.
And there is no way if Nevarra were to be invading Val Royeaux the Chantry would retaliate by abolishing the entire country. The prejudice was already present, and now most people carry on out of a mixture of ignorance (Shartan is not a commonly known figure) and tradition.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's something else I've wondered about. What goes into choosing which tattoo an elf gets on their face? Are all hunter/warrior types supposed to have Andruil's, or can they choose Dirthamen's tattoo if they prefer that god for whatever reason? If they are good with herbs and delivering babies, must they always have Sylaise's tattoo even if they'd rather have June's due to their interest and abilities with macrame? Maybe I missed a codex somewhere that explained this, but I certainly don't remember.

Judging from the Dalish Elves so far, there seems to be no correlation with their role and the deity. 

[ManOfSteel]

By choosing a "Dalish elf" as your character, you are selecting everything that comes with that, not just the small frame and pointy ears.  An adult Dailsh without vallaslin makes about as much sense as a casteless dwarf without a brand.  It is the writers' responsibility to maintain internal consistency between our avatars and the world the game takes place in.  Ignoring details that are uniform throughout certain cultures and granting unwarranted exceptions to the PC is the first step in destroying suspension of disbelief.

Agreed 100%.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

By choosing a "Dalish elf" as your character, you are selecting everything that comes with that, not just the small frame and pointy ears.  An adult Dailsh without vallaslin makes about as much sense as a casteless dwarf without a brand.  It is the writers' responsibility to maintain internal consistency between our avatars and the world the game takes place in.  Ignoring details that are uniform throughout certain cultures and granting unwarranted exceptions to the PC is the first step in destroying suspension of disbelief.

If the person playing that game has more fun without it than with it, why deny them the option? Who cares what they do in their game since it only affects their game?

[Mistic]

At this point, it does seem like the Dalish protagonist is pretty much the only one who really uses a surname (including the previous example of Mahariel you brought up); almost everyone else seems to identify with a singular name, like Lanaya or Merrill.

 

First wild guessing: The Dalish use mainly surnames to talk to each other. "Merrill", "Velanna", "Ariane" are all surnames. That would explain why they kept saying "Mahariel" in DA2. Not likely, I know, more trying to justify in-universe an out-universe decision

 

Second wild guessing (more serious): The Dalish use their clan's name as the surname, or better said, the clan they descend from. They work more as Roman gens than as current family names. But why did Mahariel have a different gens? Because the system is the same as in several tribes through history: the gens' inheritance is matrilineal. The Dalish Origin revealed that her mother came from another tribe, so it would make sense that among the clan she was known as "the Mahariel" instead of "another Sabrae". As for Firsts and Keepers, they probably favour casting aside whatever gens they may have had before in order to assume their clan's.

 

I know I'm thinking too much about it. Bioware will probably think of another solution and then handwave previous inconsistencies as if they never existed.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I think that should be each player's choice.

I don't think it would make sense to play as a Dalish without a tattoo, especially since the Dalish mage is an apprentice, they wouldn't be given that responsibility if they were still considered a child

[LobselVith8]

That's something else I've wondered about. What goes into choosing which tattoo an elf gets on their face? Are all hunter/warrior types supposed to have Andruil's, or can they choose Dirthamen's tattoo if they prefer that god for whatever reason? If they are good with herbs and delivering babies, must they always have Sylaise's tattoo even if they'd rather have June's due to their interest and abilities with macrame? Maybe I missed a codex somewhere that explained this, but I certainly don't remember.

 

I'd speculate that it seems to be up to the person to decide the vallaslin they choose to wear on their face, although some vallaslin seem to fit the role of the person. Genitivi's account read that a hunter had a particular vallaslin, "His were symbols of Andruil the Huntress, one of the most highly revered elven goddesses." It's an incredibly important ritual. According to Keeper Gisharel, "The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. When the time comes, the keeper of the clan applies the blood writing. This is done in complete silence. Cries of pain are signs of weakness. If one cannot tolerate the pain of the blood writing, they are not ready to undertake the responsibilities of an adult. The keeper may stop the ritual if they decide that the one gaining the vallaslin is not ready. There is no shame in this, for all children are different, and our ancestors once took centuries to come of age."

[Icy Magebane]

I think that should be each player's choice.

You have the option to choose a different race.  Children are not trusted to spy on the most dangerous race the elves have ever encountered.  Like I've said, if you don't want to play by the rules, pick a different race or mod the game.  I have yet to hear a logical explanation for how a Dalish elf who hasn't gone through their right of passage would be considered for any important task, let alone a mission of this nature...  If the only argument a player has is "I want to do things my way," then I don't know what more I can say to you.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I do not, nor did I mean to express, any belief in the Dalish in being innocent victims of the human cruelty. The only ones that can possibly claim that are the Arlathan elves, and we know nothing about the political climate that far back.
And there is no way if Nevarra were to be invading Val Royeaux the Chantry would retaliate by abolishing the entire country. The prejudice was already present, and now most people carry on out of a mixture of ignorance (Shartan is not a commonly known figure) and tradition.

They didn't really abolish the Dales, just took control from the elves. Is my understanding that the Dales is still mostly elven

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think it would make sense to play as a Dalish without a tattoo, especially since the Dalish mage is an apprentice, they wouldn't be given that responsibility if they were still considered a child

Considering Merrill was trained as such since she was a child, I doubt that being an adult is a factor. Unless either 1) They don't train mages until they are adults, or 2) They have the child get the tattoos when they are still a child. Option 1 is a disaster waiting to happen, and Option 2 feels like forced consent. 

[TheEternalStudent]

They didn't really abolish the Dales, just took control from the elves. Is my understanding that the Dales is still mostly elven

The Dales as a political entity is Orlais now, they obviously coundn't elimnate the geographic area.

[Drasanil]

You have the option to choose a different race.  Children are not trusted to spy on the most dangerous race the elves have ever encountered.  Like I've said, if you don't want to play by the rules, pick a different race or mod the game.  I have yet to hear a logical explanation for how a Dalish elf who hasn't gone through their right of passage would be considered for any important task, let alone a mission of this nature...  If the only argument a player has is "I want to do things my way," then I don't know what more I can say to you.

 

 

This.

 

As an aside, the only tattoo we saw so far on the dalish inquisitor wasn't even that big, only thing that really made it stick out was the gaudy blue and Bioware already said you can make them less obvious/faded. If it still bothers you that much, play something else. 

[LobselVith8]

Considering Merrill was trained as such since she was a child, I doubt that being an adult is a factor. Unless either 1) They don't train mages until they are adults, or 2)They have the child get the tattoos when they are still a child. Option 1 is a disaster waiting to happen, and Option 2 feels like forced consent. 

 

Lanaya competed with several others for the role of First and Velanna commented that there was another contender who would be more suited to the role of First to Keeper Ilshae, so I think the situation with the Sabrae Clan was an exception rather than the rule.

[Heimdall]

I do not, nor did I mean to express, any belief in the Dalish in being innocent victims of the human cruelty. The only ones that can possibly claim that are the Arlathan elves, and we know nothing about the political climate that far back.
And there is no way if Nevarra were to be invading Val Royeaux the Chantry would retaliate by abolishing the entire country. The prejudice was already present, and now most people carry on out of a mixture of ignorance (Shartan is not a commonly known figure) and tradition.

The prejudice has more to do with the elves insistence on honoring their ancient gods (And openly rejected the religion of their founder and the prophet that freed the slaves, refusing even to let missionaries within their borders) and total isolationism, to the point of ignoring the plight of its Blight ravaged neighbors, a Dalish army even stood idle as it watched Darkspawn assault a nearby Orlesian city. The Dales may not have quite deserved what they got, but certainly earned the animosity directed towards them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lanaya competed with several others for the role of First and Velanna commented that there was another contender who would be more suited to the role of First to Keeper Ilshae, so I think the situation with the Sabrae Clan was an exception rather than the rule.

They could have competed when they were children and teenagers however, thus too young for the markings. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The Dales as a political entity is Orlais now, they obviously coundn't elimnate the geographic area.

Is just the same as when Orlais conquered Ferelden, Ferelden & its people still existed but was part of & controlled by Orlais.

[LobselVith8]

They could have competed when they were children and teenagers however, thus too young for the markings. 

 

As the Dalish typically receive vallaslin around 18 years of age, either the First of Clan Lavellan or a hunter would have received vallaslin by the time the protagonist is tasked by the Keeper for an important task, as it's a passage to adulthood by Dalish culture.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't think it would make sense to play as a Dalish without a tattoo, especially since the Dalish mage is an apprentice, they wouldn't be given that responsibility if they were still considered a child

And if you don't think it would make sense, then yiu shouldn't do it.

But do you need the designers to force you to comply with your preference?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You have the option to choose a different race.  Children are not trusted to spy on the most dangerous race the elves have ever encountered.  Like I've said, if you don't want to play by the rules, pick a different race or mod the game.  I have yet to hear a logical explanation for how a Dalish elf who hasn't gone through their right of passage would be considered for any important task, let alone a mission of this nature...  If the only argument a player has is "I want to do things my way," then I don't know what more I can say to you.

Fine, here's one. You went through your rite of passage and are soon going to get your markings when the Keeper decides to send someone on the mission. Since this involves going into human territory, they decide to send someone they can trust and yet fully blend in. Your character is that person. 

 

 

As the Dalish typically receive vallaslin around 18 years of age, either the First of Clan Lavellan or a hunter would have received vallaslin by the time the protagonist is tasked by the Keeper for an important task, as it's a passage to adulthood by Dalish culture.

I was talking about when Lanaya and the other apprentices competed for First. 

[falconlord5]

And if you don't think it would make sense, then yiu shouldn't do it.

But do you need the designers to force you to comply with your preference?

I realize I'm stepping into a hole with no bottom here, but I think the designers need to comply with their own lore.

 

If all adult Dalish have tattoos, than all adult Dalish have tattoos. PC's included.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You have the option to choose a different race. Children are not trusted to spy on the most dangerous race the elves have ever encountered. Like I've said, if you don't want to play by the rules, pick a different race or mod the game. I have yet to hear a logical explanation for how a Dalish elf who hasn't gone through their right of passage would be considered for any important task, let alone a mission of this nature... If the only argument a player has is "I want to do things my way," then I don't know what more I can say to you.

This isn't about what I want. I don't even like elves, and have no plans to play one.

This is about design philosophy. Why do you need to hear a logical explanation for something before you'll let someone else do it?

[LobselVith8]

Fine, here's one. You went through your rite of passage and are soon going to get your markings when the Keeper decides to send someone on the mission. Since this involves going into human territory, they decide to send someone they can trust and yet fully blend in. Your character is that person. 

 

So you think the Keeper should have sent a teenager to the conclave, rather than a trained adult who would be able to handle the dangers of the wilderness and be able to ascertain if there's a threat posed by either faction to the People?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I realize I'm stepping into a hole with no bottom here, but I think the designers need to comply with their own lore.

If all adult Dalish have tattoos, than all adult Dalish have tattoos. PC's included.

The designers are not the authors of the PC. I would agree that all adult Dalish NPCs should have the tattoos, lacking a damn good reason why not.

Because thr designers' choices affect all players. But an individual player's choice affects only him. So why force him to comply with the rules? It makes no material difference to you or your game experience if I have a Dalish with no tattoos. Or with Dwarven or Qunari tattoos. So why do you care?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So you think the Keeper should have sent a teenager to the conclave, rather than a trained adult who would be able to handle the dangers of the wilderness and be able to ascertain if there's a threat posed by either faction to the People?

You said you are a teenager? Maybe you're one who couldn't do it until you were in your early 20s. They claim there is nothing wrong with that. So you are still trained, and an adult by a biological standpoint and in the midst of it in a cultural standpoint. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

And if you don't think it would make sense, then yiu shouldn't do it.

But do you need the designers to force you to comply with your preference?

Yes, players should be forced if their choice specifically breaks lore such as a Dalish elf being given a very important task to do which wouldn't happen if they weren't seen as ready to receive their tattoo yet.