494 réponses à ce sujet

[falconlord5]

The designers are not the authors of the PC. I would agree that all adult Dalish NPCs should have the tattoos, lacking a damn good reason why not.

Because thr designers' choices affect all players. But an individual player's choice affects only him. So why force him to comply with the rules? It makes no material difference to you or your game experience if I have a Dalish with no tattoos. Or with Dwarven or Qunari tattoos. So why do you care?

 

Yes, actually they are. They write the characters, we play them. That they offer us the illusion of choice does not change the fact that we did not write these characters, that we did not construct the world they live in or the arcs that they can go through. All the illusion of choice that any game offers means is that we get too choose between one of several characters that the designers have authored, not that we ourselves have authored them.

 

In the end, they aren't our characters, they are BioWare's. And BioWare has an obligation to its own continuity, before any so-called obligations to us.

[TheEternalStudent]

The prejudice has more to do with the elves insistence on honoring their ancient gods (And openly rejected the religion of their founder and the prophet that freed the slaves, refusing even to let missionaries within their borders) and total isolationism, to the point of ignoring the plight of its Blight ravaged neighbors, a Dalish army even stood idle as it watched Darkspawn assault a nearby Orlesian city. The Dales may not have quite deserved what they got, but certainly earned the animosity directed towards them.

The founders of the Dales would have been Dalish, not Andrastian. And saying that Andraste should have made thier conversion a requirement of thier support is absurd. And yes, they were/are asses to the humans. But that's not sufficent grounds for the Chantry's actions. Especially rewriting history to be more palatable.

 

Is just the same as when Orlais conquered Ferelden, Ferelden & its people still existed but was part of & controlled by Orlais.

Ferelden was still permitted a political existence, merely one completely subsurvient to Orlais. The Dalish are conscidered outlaws and only remain safe by staying moving.

[TheEternalStudent]

You said you are a teenager? Maybe you're one who couldn't do it until you were in your early 20s. They claim there is nothing wrong with that. So you are still trained, and an adult by a biological standpoint and in the midst of it in a cultural standpoint. 

Because many cultures (the Dalish included) have a clear non-biological distinction between child and adult, for the Dalish this is easily seen by the vallslin.

[Icy Magebane]

This isn't about what I want. I don't even like elves, and have no plans to play one.

This is about design philosophy. Why do you need to hear a logical explanation for something before you'll let someone else do it?

By that reasoning, I could just as easily wonder why Abin Sur can't crash into the Dalish camp and give me his Green Lantern ring.  If the story and characters do not follow logic, then literally anything could happen so long as it sounds like fun... this is not a desirable outcome.  A realistic fictional world is based on rules and does not arbitrarily deviate from those rules.  The game is called "Dragon Age," so why can't the PC can shout like the Dragonborn?  Why can't I be a time traveler?  Why can't I be a half-qunari, half-dwarf raised by the Dalish if I choose the Dalish background?  It's still technically Dalish, right?

 

Do you honestly see no value in logic and consistency in storytelling?  No game provides limitless freedom, therefore I don't see a justification for expecting this of Dragon Age.

[LobselVith8]

You said you are a teenager? Maybe you're one who couldn't do it until you were in your early 20s. They claim there is nothing wrong with that. So you are still trained, and an adult by a biological standpoint and in the midst of it in a cultural standpoint. 

 

If the person wasn't ready for years to receive their vallaslin, I'm not sure why the Keeper would think the person could be trusted with such an important and delicate task, especially given the potential severity of the threat posed to the Elvhen. I'd imagine the Keeper would sent a capable First or hunter to the conclave who she knows can handle the task, not someone who the hahren may have had doubts about.

[TheEternalStudent]

By that reasoning, I could just as easily wonder why Abin Sur can't crash into the Dalish camp and give me his Green Lantern ring. 

I will play this game.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The founders of the Dales would have been Dalish, not Andrastian. And saying that Andraste should have made thier conversion a requirement of thier support is absurd. And yes, they were/are asses to the humans. But that's not sufficent grounds for the Chantry's actions. Especially rewriting history to be more palatable.
 
Ferelden was still permitted a political existence, merely one completely subsurvient to Orlais. The Dalish are conscidered outlaws and only remain safe by staying moving.

Is the Dalish choice to keep moving since they refuse to live among humans

[falconlord5]

You said you are a teenager? Maybe you're one who couldn't do it until you were in your early 20s. They claim there is nothing wrong with that. So you are still trained, and an adult by a biological standpoint and in the midst of it in a cultural standpoint. 

Until you get the vallaslin, you are a teenager in Dalish terms. You will be seen as immature, irresponisble, and altogether less-ready for adulthood than those who've gotten the tattoos, especially if you had to wait to get yours. Your not in the midst of adulthood from a cultural standpoint, you are an adolescent; untried, untested, and unworthy.

[Icy Magebane]

Fine, here's one. You went through your rite of passage and are soon going to get your markings when the Keeper decides to send someone on the mission. Since this involves going into human territory, they decide to send someone they can trust and yet fully blend in. Your character is that person. 

If that were the case, then no Dalish protagonist should have vallaslin.  The background is not meant to cater to our specific versions of the character.  There is only one version of events, regardless of what we may or may not have wanted or planned for our characters.  What you have written sounds like a reasonable way to include the Dalish protagonist in the story, but that's not the one they chose to go with.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, players should be forced if their choice specifically breaks lore such as a Dalish elf being given a very important task to do which wouldn't happen if they weren't seen as ready to receive their tattoo yet.

Who benefits from that? Who are you helping by making the game less fun for some people? Keep in mind that you're not making the game more fun for anyone, given that people who want to conform to the lore already can.

[Icy Magebane]

If the person wasn't ready for years to receive their vallaslin, I'm not sure why the Keeper would think the person could be trusted with such an important and delicate task, especially given the potential severity of the threat posed to the Elvhen. I'd imagine the Keeper would sent a capable First or hunter to the conclave who she knows can handle the task, not someone who the hahren may have had doubts about.

Pretty much... disagreeing with the clan is one thing, but outright refusing to follow their customs is a good way to get on the Keeper's bad side.  There will still be the option to have very light vallaslin, but that still doesn't seem good enough for some people.  The Dalish heritage must be completely rejected, but the clan is still supposed to take care of the PC, tolerate their disrespectful attitudes, and entrust them with a task that could have some lasting impact on the elves as a whole.  I just don't see that happening.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, actually they are. They write the characters, we play them. That they offer us the illusion of choice does not change the fact that we did not write these characters, that we did not construct the world they live in or the arcs that they can go through. All the illusion of choice that any game offers means is that we get too choose between one of several characters that the designers have authored, not that we ourselves have authored them.

That design is impossible. How could you choose dialogue options without knowing the character's mind? Since the game doesn't provide detailed sets of motivations behind each possible combination of choices, the character's mind must therefore be yours to populate.

In the end, they aren't our characters, they are BioWare's. And BioWare has an obligation to its own continuity, before any so-called obligations to us.

I completely disagree, and I'm still wondering why it's so important to anyone to tell others how to play.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Because many cultures (the Dalish included) have a clear non-biological distinction between child and adult, for the Dalish this is easily seen by the vallslin.

In this case, I want to see a 70 year old Dalish without them just for the humor of him being called a child. 

 

 

Until you get the vallaslin, you are a teenager in Dalish terms. You will be seen as immature, irresponisble, and altogether less-ready for adulthood than those who've gotten the tattoos, especially if you had to wait to get yours. Your not in the midst of adulthood from a cultural standpoint, you are an adolescent; untried, untested, and unworthy.

According to the Dalish, there is nothing wrong about waiting. 

 

If the person wasn't ready for years to receive their vallaslin, I'm not sure why the Keeper would think the person could be trusted with such an important and delicate task, especially given the potential severity of the threat posed to the Elvhen. I'd imagine the Keeper would sent a capable First or hunter to the conclave who she knows can handle the task, not someone who the hahren may have had doubts about.

At least this proves how little you read my posts, since in my example I said the Dalish passes their rite of passage and was about to get the tattoos when the Keeper saw that you would serve the mission better without them so delayed. 

 

 

If that were the case, then no Dalish protagonist should have vallaslin.  The background is not meant to cater to our specific versions of the character.  There is only one version of events, regardless of what we may or may not have wanted or planned for our characters.  What you have written sounds like a reasonable way to include the Dalish protagonist in the story, but that's not the one they chose to go with.

The one version of events is "Your Keeper sent you on this mission". Both a character like I described and one with the tattoos would fit, hence why options could fit. 

[TheEternalStudent]

Is the Dalish choice to keep moving since they refuse to live among humans

I am unsure if this is a question or was supposed to lead with it's.
I'm going to assume the latter.

Yes, the Dalish choose not to join human society, becoming second class citizens, and simply accept the loss of thier culture and let the Chantry do whatever they wish without protest.
What's your point?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Who benefits from that? Who are you helping by making the game less fun for some people? Keep in mind that you're not making the game more fun for anyone, given that people who want to conform to the lore already can.

Im not sure why having to wear a tattoo makes the game less fun, can easily use a small faint tattoo if they dislike them

[Mistic]

Who benefits from that? Who are you helping by making the game less fun for some people? Keep in mind that you're not making the game more fun for anyone, given that people who want to conform to the lore already can.

 

You benefit the writers. As seen in blogs like Gaider's own, it's generally easier to write under certain limits to have a coherent story. If you start taking the limits out, in the end you will have a very generic plot in which character creation doesn't matter and the player has to fill in the gaps, thus making the game less fun for people who don't have the imagination or the patience to go through that. Like Skyrim.

 

That said, I don't think it would have been a big deal having the option of not having tattoos.

[ManOfSteel]

The designers are not the authors of the PC

Yes, they are.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Im not sure why having to wear a tattoo makes the game less fun, can easily use a small faint tattoo if they dislike them

Small, faint tattoos =/= no tattoos, so if someone doesn't like tattoos that doesn't solve their issue with it. 

[TheEternalStudent]

Small, faint tattoos =/= no tattoos, so if someone doesn't like tattoos that doesn't solve their issue with it. 

No, but it allows people who dislike tattos to not have it in thier face, while not ignoring lore.
It's a compromise.

[Shadow Fox]

That design is impossible. How could you choose dialogue options without knowing the character's mind? Since the game doesn't provide detailed sets of motivations behind each possible combination of choices, the character's mind must therefore be yours to populate.
I completely disagree, and I'm still wondering why it's so important to anyone to tell others how to play.

 

 

Hahahahahahaha

 

You can't be serious.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, but it allows people who dislike tattos to not have it in thier face, while not ignoring lore.
It's a compromise.

No, they still literally have it in their face.

But in seriousness, that isn't a compromise. A compromise would be giving the option to not have them. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I am unsure if this is a question or was supposed to lead with it's.
I'm going to assume the latter.

Yes, the Dalish choose not to join human society, becoming second class citizens, and simply accept the loss of thier culture and let the Chantry do whatever they wish without protest.
What's your point?

You said the Dalish were outlaws when their not, is their own choice to mostly keep away from civilisation, a Dalish elf can easily live in a city without getting arrested for having the wrong tattoo

[Icy Magebane]

No, but it allows people who dislike tattos to not have it in thier face, while not ignoring lore.
It's a compromise.

Also, they aren't all huge like Elgar'nan's that takes up half of the face...  even he has a smaller version in DA:O.  Most of them are just a few lines at most, and all of them have simplified and elaborate variations.

[falconlord5]

According to the Dalish, there is nothing wrong about waiting. 

 

Yeah, and according to my parents there's nothing wrong about being unable to drive. Guess what's the single most thing they harass me about?

 

The vallaslin are a mark of adulthood. Waiting two years (and it has to be at least two years, because we know that the inquisitor is between twenty and forty, and the minimum age for the vallaslin is eighteen) will mark you. It will mark you as being unable or unwilling to accept the responsibilities of adulthood, much like being unable to drive marks me.

 

Whatever the culture may officially say about it, that stigma will not go away.

[Icy Magebane]

No, they still literally have it in their face.

But in seriousness, that isn't a compromise. A compromise would be giving the option to not have them. 

"All or nothing" is actually the antithesis of compromise.