440 réponses à ce sujet

[Samahl]

You telling me the stripperiffic outfit Isabella wore didn't reflect her character?

 

It was incredibly impractical for a pirate and a rogue, so yeah, kinda.

[Lady Luminous]

Not entirely, no.
 
Just as she wasn't wearing an entire outfit

That was my first thought when I saw Izzy was: why is she wearing underwear outside?

[Puppy Love]

It was incredibly impractical for a pirate and a rogue, so yeah, kinda.

 

What else would you have her wear?  You know, that promotes her casual view towards sexuality, her desire to flaunt her body to put out that wide net of hers, and her overconfidence in her abilities as a duelist?  I just want to know what she should be wearing that isn't just focusing on the I get into battle.  Because honestly whenever outfits come up in game, that seems to be the only thing that matters anymore.

 

It just seems more and more, the only aspect of a characters clothing that matters anymore is "how practical is it for combat" and everything else is irrelevant.

[Samahl]

What else would you have her wear?  You know, that promotes her casual view towards sexuality, her desire to flaunt her body to put out that wide net of hers, and her overconfidence in her abilities as a duelist?  I just want to know what she should be wearing that isn't just focusing on the I get into battle.  Because honestly whenever outfits come up in game, that seems to be the only thing that matters anymore.

 

It just seems more and more, the only aspect of a characters clothing that matters anymore is "how practical is it for combat" and everything else is irrelevant.

 

I would have her wear something that she can actually move around in properly. That doesn't mean it has to be completely conservative.

[Basement Cat]

What else would you have her wear?  You know, that promotes her casual view towards sexuality, her desire to flaunt her body to put out that wide net of hers, and her overconfidence in her abilities as a duelist?  I just want to know what she should be wearing that isn't just focusing on the I get into battle.  Because honestly whenever outfits come up in game, that seems to be the only thing that matters anymore.

 

It just seems more and more, the only aspect of a characters clothing that matters anymore is "how practical is it for combat" and everything else is irrelevant.

I think it's a reaction to the 'chainmail bikini' phenomenon. Female armor has often been designed with sexiness in mind, so the opposite is to want practicality. 

[RebbyWriter]

I think the person is mistaken

 

 

The real question should be, "Companions: Hot or Super Hot?"

[Puppy Love]

I think it's a reaction to the 'chainmail bikini' phenomenon. Female armor has often been designed with sexiness in mind, so the opposite is to want practicality. 

 

Yeah and frustrating to us in the middle that think both sides are insane and extreme.

 

The main reason I'd like to know and see what the other side thinks is acceptable for her to be wearing while still demonstrating her personality is because they can't ignore it has to be sexy as it's too much a part of her character, and any attempt should end more towards the middle as a result, and MIGHT lead to a compromisable position.

[oceanicsurvivor]

What else would you have her wear?  You know, that promotes her casual view towards sexuality, her desire to flaunt her body to put out that wide net of hers, and her overconfidence in her abilities as a duelist?  I just want to know what she should be wearing that isn't just focusing on the I get into battle.  Because honestly whenever outfits come up in game, that seems to be the only thing that matters anymore.

 

It just seems more and more, the only aspect of a characters clothing that matters anymore is "how practical is it for combat" and everything else is irrelevant.

 

I prolly don't hate her outfit as much as some of the others, but given the sheer amount of the game that is combat, it should be a concern for Isabela. Obviously companions didn't change outfits around us because of game limitations even though I'm sure they owned more than one shirt each, but when they were adventuring with us, they were in combat. The outfit she wears is fine I guess, for the things you mentioned, although you kinda make her sound like a billboard, but she wasn't doing those things with us. So yeah, I think ultimately combat readyness is, maybe not the only factor, but certainly a TOP factor.

 

Spoiler

[Puppy Love]

I prolly don't hate her outfit as much as some of the others, but given the sheer amount of the game that is combat, it should be a concern for Isabela. Obviously companions didn't change outfits around us because of game limitations even though I'm sure they owned more than one shirt each, but when they were adventuring with us, they were in combat. The outfit she wears is fine I guess, for the things you mentioned, although you kinda make her sound like a billboard, but she wasn't doing those things with us. So yeah, I think ultimately combat readyness is, maybe not the only factor, but certainly a TOP factor.

 

Spoiler

 

but but it's showing the oh so dreaded cleavage we're never supposed to have.  Our heart is exposed!!! <gasps>

 

I like the outfit by the way.  So don't take that not liking it.  Though I will point out it really isn't any more protective than she was already wearing, cept towards the cold.  It's just more cloth.  (That being said I personally think it's fine without all that armor and perfect as is)

 

Also that's a lot of cloth for a duellist, seems a bit easy to get caught in something.  Very pirate though, and definitely sexy so covers more of her personality than just I fight things.  So ultimately I approve.

[kukumburr]

What else would you have her wear?  You know, that promotes her casual view towards sexuality, her desire to flaunt her body to put out that wide net of hers, and her overconfidence in her abilities as a duelist?  I just want to know what she should be wearing that isn't just focusing on the I get into battle.  Because honestly whenever outfits come up in game, that seems to be the only thing that matters anymore.

 

It just seems more and more, the only aspect of a characters clothing that matters anymore is "how practical is it for combat" and everything else is irrelevant.

 

Why should female characters have to dress in a way that reflects their sexuality? Zevran and Anders are both flirty and have casual sex yet they're not running around in their underwear. I've never liked the idea that Isabela (and Morrigan for that matter) wear so little clothing because it "reflects their character". To me that seems to feed into the harmful stereotype that the more revealing a woman's clothes are, the "easier" she is. In my opinion a character's clothes should reflect their profession and background more than anything else. Their personality should speak for itself. I'm pretty sure I would still know Isabela is a sexy, confident woman even if she was covered from head to toe.

 

I actually don't mind Isabela's top even if it is a bit impractical but the lack of any sort of pants just comes across as silly to me. That's impractical for just going about everday life, regardless of combat.

[Iakus]

What else would you have her wear?  You know, that promotes her casual view towards sexuality, her desire to flaunt her body to put out that wide net of hers, and her overconfidence in her abilities as a duelist?  I just want to know what she should be wearing that isn't just focusing on the I get into battle.  Because honestly whenever outfits come up in game, that seems to be the only thing that matters anymore.

 

 Bottom right one is the mod I use for her:

 

Spoiler

[Puppy Love]

Why should female characters have to dress in a way that reflects their sexuality? Zevran and Anders are both flirty and have casual sex yet they're not running around in their underwear. I've never liked the idea that Isabela (and Morrigan for that matter) wear so little clothing because it "reflects their character". To me that seems to feed into the harmful stereotype that the more revealing a woman's clothes are, the "easier" she is. In my opinion a character's clothes should reflect their profession and background more than anything else. Their personality should speak for itself. I'm pretty sure I would still know Isabela is a sexy, confident woman even if she was covered from head to toe.

 

I actually don't mind Isabela's top even if it is a bit impractical but the lack of any sort of pants just comes across as silly to me. That's impractical for just going about everday life, regardless of combat.

 

It's not reflecting her sexuality it's reflecting her approach to sexuality as demonstrated by her character.  She likes to flaunt what she has.  You act as if a woman decides to dress attractively, and does so to get attention it's some sick perversion.  Men and women wear different kinds of clothes for these purposes.

 

Let's look at formal wear and say going to the prom for example.  I don't want to be made to dress masculine, and be required to wear the exact same things as the male models period, end of story.   I have no problem wearing such clothing now and then.  But there seems to be a decided effort to completely remove traditionally feminine things from everything, and to say that any kind of feminine touch must not be allowed.

 

Just because a woman decides to dress sexily does not mean she's less of a person.

 

 

 Bottom right one is the mod I use for her:

 

Spoiler

 

Oooh I like your choice, much better than her original outfit (Has pants) and has some armor bits too for those who absolutely must have them.

 

Though really no pants are not impractical, I have no issues in say a skirt or dress, nor do I think the Scotts are hurting for wearing kilts, and are descendants of a kilt wearing warrior culture, but whatever.

 

Now I understand we're often used as and turned into sex objects, but that's no reason to throw away the feminine identity completely.

 

Oh and by the way I'd be perfectly happy with that bottom right outfit for Isabella.  Bet it's still too little for most of this crowd though.

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

People always want unrealistic characters. Whether we're talking about their personalities or the appearance, you'll always hear some sort of complains. If they'll just stop and look around, I highly doubt they'll see anything perfect any time soon. But when the characters are too "eye candy", other people will complain how they're too unrealistic, perfect or slutty.

 

I admit, personally I din't see anything "special" in some of them myself at first. But I know they'll grow on me before I know it. It's BioWare we're talking about, most of their characters always grow on us in different ways.

 

Last time I went outside my house, I din't see any picture perfect models shopping around and walking around the streets.

Sooner or later there will be mods with beauty products, and I'm sure everyone will be happy again.

[kukumburr]

It's not reflecting her sexuality it's reflecting her approach to sexuality as demonstrated by her character.  She likes to flaunt what she has.  You act as if a woman decides to dress attractively, and does so to get attention it's some sick perversion.  Men and women wear different kinds of clothes for these purposes.

 

Let's look at formal wear and say going to the prom for example.  I don't want to be made to dress masculine, and be required to wear the exact same things as the male models period, end of story.   I have no problem wearing such clothing now and then.  But there seems to be a decided effort to completely remove traditionally feminine things from everything, and to say that any kind of feminine touch must be allowed.

 

Just because a woman decides to dress sexily does not mean she's less of a person.

 

I actually don't have any problem with more revealing or traditionally feminine clothing being available for casual/formal wear in game. I didn't care for Hawke's pantsuit. But I do think for combat/adventuring outfits there should be a good amount of consideration for practicality. I just don't like the idea that what someone's wearing is a reflection on how they approach sex.

 

I really like all of the companion's armor in Inquisition. They're all distinctive and fairly practical. I guess Iron Bull doesn't have much chest protection for a warrior but that seems like a Qunari thing. I just kind of assume they have extra thick skin or something.

[Puppy Love]

I actually don't have any problem with more revealing or traditionally feminine clothing being available for casual/formal wear in game. I didn't care for Hawke's pantsuit. But I do think for combat/adventuring outfits there should be a good amount of consideration for practicality. I just don't like the idea that what someone's wearing is a reflection on how they approach sex.

 

I really like all of the companion's armor in Inquisition. They're all distinctive and fairly practical. I guess Iron Bull doesn't have much chest protection for a warrior but that seems like a Qunari thing. I just kind of assume they have extra thick skin or something.

 

You're not understanding.  When I go out on a date.  I put on my most attractive clothing.  I try to make myself as appealing as possible without going outside my comfort zone.

 

To her, life is a date, everywhere is a potential lover, she dresses herself up to draw as much sexual attention as possible, casting that wide net of hers as she calls it.  The clothing is one of the tools in her arsenal she specifically uses for this purpose.  She's also an overconfident duelist and a pirate used to the high seas, where wearing armor is rare for obvious reasons.  So dressing up in lots of armor goes against her instincts as a person of the sea, and probably feels heavy and restricting in comparison to what she'd typically wear during a duel.  

 

So putting her in a bunch of form covering armor and clothing is going against several aspects of her character.  As I said it's part of her approach to her sexuality, not her sexuality.  She could be straight, gay, or bi and it's irrelevant to how she chooses to approach her sexuality.  It's the kind of person she is, and it's a tool she uses.  It has nothing to do with her sexuality just how she approaches it.  Like how a person approaches combat, do I fight at range, wear lots of armor, wear war pant and animals furs and run in half naked screaming, do I wield a big honking sword, or a weapon and shield.  Her clothing is one of her tools like a sword for this purpose.

 

Also 80% of the game is spent in combat.  Non combat clothing is not a solution to people who want more feminine options that matter for more than 10 minutes.

[Pasquale1234]

It's not reflecting her sexuality it's reflecting her approach to sexuality as demonstrated by her character.  She likes to flaunt what she has.  You act as if a woman decides to dress attractively, and does so to get attention it's some sick perversion.  Men and women wear different kinds of clothes for these purposes.

In this and several of your other posts, you seem to equate terms like "attractive", "sexy", and "feminine" with revealing and baring a lot of skin. I personally find that a little odd, although I suppose media and the fashion industry has planted a lot of those sorts of ideas. We don't all have the same tastes, after all. I find traits like confidence, competence, strength, and courage as they may be reflected in the ways a woman presents herself to be much more compelling than baring one's self for the world to admire. IOW, I find a woman in a power suit much more attractive than a frederick's model.

Most of the images of pirates and other seafarers I've seen show them fully covered to protect their skin from the harsh conditions of sun beating off the water and salt air. The male equivalent of Isabela's DA2 outfit would be a long athletic t-shirt (I won't use the slang term for it) spilling over whitie tighties. Any man who ran around (un)dressed like that for 10 years would come across as some sort of loony scumbag who cares nothing about his appearance.

IIRC, there was a story about Isabela's escape from her sinking ship indicating she didn't have time to take her personal belongings, and washed ashore wearing that.

 

Let's look at formal wear and say going to the prom for example.  I don't want to be made to dress masculine, and be required to wear the exact same things as the male models period, end of story.   I have no problem wearing such clothing now and then.  But there seems to be a decided effort to completely remove traditionally feminine things from everything, and to say that any kind of feminine touch must be allowed.
 
Just because a woman decides to dress sexily does not mean she's less of a person.

No, but it might mean that she is more interested in garnering sexual attention than, say, protecting her skin from the elements, being prepared for activities other than sex, or being known or recognized for other characteristics or accomplishments.
 

Now I understand we're often used as and turned into sex objects, but that's no reason to throw away the feminine identity completely.

Who gets to decide what constitutes feminine identity?

As it stands, a lot of it seems to be based on being sexually attractive, available, pleasing, vulnerable, dependent, needing protection. If those are indeed the sorts of traits that create this "feminine identity", then we are saying that those are the things that we value most in women. Not their strength. Not their courage. Not their intelligence. Not their expertise. Etc.

Of course, I may be conflating the gender "feminine" with the biological sex "women" here - they are not the same thing.

[Puppy Love]

 

Who gets to decide what constitutes feminine identity?

As it stands, a lot of it seems to be based on being sexually attractive, available, pleasing, vulnerable, dependent, needing protection. If those are indeed the sorts of traits that create this "feminine identity", then we are saying that those are the things that we value most in women. Not their strength. Not their courage. Not their intelligence. Not their expertise. Etc.

Of course, I may be conflating the gender "feminine" with the biological sex "women" here - they are not the same thing.

 

We are confusing the two a bit, I'll be honest it's a bit jumbled anyway.  But that is the issue in a sense.  We're all attempting to define it for each other what we can and cannot wear in game based on how we decide to perceive it, each having their own views on what is and is not acceptable for a woman to wear in a game.  Not every woman agrees, and a lot of what is said is insulting and derogatory to women who may actually like such clothing.

 

Besides I don't want a character wearing what Isabella has.  I agree her lack of leggings is odd, amongst other things.  It's a bit extreme on the other side of this argument.  But the problem is, if we were armor that shows even a bit of cleavage, or the slightest bit of skin.  If it shows of the female shape at all, it's clearly objectifying women.  As if there's something wrong with the female body.

 

I don't want half naked characters, but I also don't want to feel like an armored nun either. 

 

I'm sorry if armored nun seemed insulting to anyone.  But as a girl that likes her characters occasionally showing a bit of skin, and enjoys the female form, and enjoys dressing up in real life, it doesn't feel to good when asking people just let up a bit, that they insist that anything short of full armor with as little skin as possible is akin to turning a woman into nothing but a sex object.

[Puppy Love]

Actually I'm getting out of this conversation.  I'm starting to get aggressive and insulting again.  I'll just say this.  It's just when people say things about objectifying women, and why must usually followed by derogatory stuff, and it's the personality that matters, what's all that imply about women who like dressing less than you all are asking, who don't enjoy their avatars dressed like you all insist.  The only ones insisting anything is the conservative dress side of this debate.  Most of the other side is completely willing to share, and is not just filled with straight men wanting to oogle women and ****** to video game characters (Not that I think that's what most men do).  Also not everyone on the other side is asking for half naked women either.  Some of us just want you to back off a little teensy bit with the demands.  Some of us are women who enjoy playing combat games and rpgs and enjoy dressing our avatars in pretty fantasy armors and clothes.

[Pasquale1234]

We are confusing the two a bit, I'll be honest it's a bit jumbled anyway.  But that is the issue in a sense.  We're all attempting to define it for each other what we can and cannot wear in game based on how we decide to perceive it, each having their own views on what is and is not acceptable for a woman to wear in a game.  Not every woman agrees, and a lot of what is said is insulting and derogatory to women who may actually like such clothing.

Here's the thing: we're not talking about The Sims or Second Life, and we're not talking about clothing. We're talking about a combat-heavy RPG, where clothing is called armor and has stats related to combat, not appearance or sex appeal.
 

Besides I don't want a character wearing what Isabella has.  I agree her lack of leggings is odd, amongst other things.  It's a bit extreme on the other side of this argument.  But the problem is, if we were armor that shows even a bit of cleavage, or the slightest bit of skin.  If it shows of the female shape at all, it's clearly objectifying women.  As if there's something wrong with the female body.

The purpose of armor is to protect the wearer's body in COMBAT. Armor that does not cover the body provides less protection than armor that does. Boobplate armor puts the wearer's sternum at risk.
 

I'm sorry if armored nun seemed insulting to anyone.  But as a girl that likes her characters occasionally showing a bit of skin, and enjoys the female form, and enjoys dressing up in real life, it doesn't feel to good when asking people just let up a bit, that they insist that anything short of full armor with as little skin as possible is akin to turning a woman into nothing but a sex object.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, yes?

Let me assure you, if you take a good long look at the history of gaming and most of the titles out there, you won't find any shortage of cleavage, boobplate, or chainmail g-strings. Some game engines even have jiggly boob physics.

It's been a long time coming, but some developers are *finally* giving female characters armor that appears as functional and protective as that of the male characters. Instead of existing only as eye candy, female combatants are finally being deemed as worthy of protecting and taken as seriously as male combatants. And I am delighted by that.

[Puppy Love]

The issue is I don't want to be on either extreme, I'm in the middle of both your sides, and both sides of the fight is asking for extremes, but only one side is asking for their extreme at the exclusion of the other.  So games end up either support one side or the other and I'm lucky if I find a single outfit I like in either game.

 

Actually it doesn't matter I'm screwed either way.  Since even if you share will likely end up with extremes or bizarre compromises that satisfy neither side and completely bypass what I desire anyway.

[Ryzaki]

Here's the thing: we're not talking about The Sims or Second Life, and we're not talking about clothing. We're talking about a combat-heavy RPG, where clothing is called armor and has stats related to combat, not appearance or sex appeal.
 

The purpose of armor is to protect the wearer's body in COMBAT. Armor that does not cover the body provides less protection than armor that does. Boobplate armor puts the wearer's sternum at risk.
 

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, yes?

Let me assure you, if you take a good long look at the history of gaming and most of the titles out there, you won't find any shortage of cleavage, boobplate, or chainmail g-strings. Some game engines even have jiggly boob physics.

It's been a long time coming, but some developers are *finally* giving female characters armor that appears as functional and protective as that of the male characters. Instead of existing only as eye candy, female combatants are finally being deemed as worthy of protecting and taken as seriously as male combatants. And I am delighted by that.

 

this.

 

I'm so tired of saying "ooh I get to play female." and then having a character that looks so out of place next to the fully armored males next to her it's baffling.

 

BW thankfully has steady started avoiding that and getting better at having female warriors looking like yes they've actually been on a battlefield and no they didn't just step off a photoshoot. It's refreshing. And I want more of it. Not less.

 

I want my female PC to look great sure. But that doesn't mean her armor has to be revealing or impractical.

[Puppy Love]

Like I said, I'm screwed either way.

 

Because it's either going to be so revealing I don't want it anymore, or so "practical" I get no enjoyment from seeing it on my character.  I sometimes feel my enjoyment range was skipped entirely.

[Deviija]

The issue is I don't want to be on either extreme, I'm in the middle of both your sides, and both sides of the fight is asking for extremes, but only one side is asking for their extreme at the exclusion of the other.  So games end up either support one side or the other and I'm lucky if I find a single outfit I like in either game.

 

It isn't a duel between two sides and side sides alone.  In fact, many of the folks that find practical armor attractive and wish it's inclusion in our games (like me) aren't asking for the *exclusion* of other types of armor or clothing.  What we ask for is CHOICE and variety.  If there is to be a boobplate/boobsuit, or revealing and more showy outfit, then why can't there also be a practical combat armor and/or clothing that doesn't dip into the zone of male gaze?  If you offer choices to the player, and leave it up to them, then there isn't an issue.  

 

Likewise, on another side of the spectrum, why can there not be skimpy armors and clothing choices for dudes as well?  I'm for it.  If people find it ridiculous for men but not for women, then I think it says a lot.  

[RevilFox]

Aren't we sort of having two difference conversations? One about how women are depicted in fantasy RPGs, and one about Isabella specifically? I agree on the larger issue about women in RPGs, but I don't think Isabella is a particularly good example because I do feel that the stylistic choice with her has more to do with her personality in general than anything else. And not just her views on sex. She is presented as supremely confident in her combat abilities, including simply not being there when her opponent strikes. Her defensive style isn't being able to shrug off blows, it's moving completely out of the way of an attack, or twisting and rolling so it doesn't strike her full on. And, yes, her attitude towards sex is part of her outfit as well, but not just the mechanical act of the thing. She believes in freedom above everything, and does not give one single crap about how other people feel about her choices. The argument that her outfit would be really out of place and make people uncomfortable is sort of why she wears is. 

 

As to the post above mine about providing choice, again I say that DA2 isn't really the best game to use for that argument, because you DO have a choice. Avaline is pretty much the exact opposite to Isabella in nearly every regard. The game also has Cassandra, who, although not a companion, is an armored warrior. 

 

But I agree on the whole with the fact that women in RPGs tend to be oversexualized pieces of eye-candy. The issue is that is needs to be okay to have this type of character once in a while, because some women, like Puppy Love, enjoy that kind of content and the types of characters that are willing to present themselves in this way. I assume she would have an issue with a female character who was like this just for the sake of being like this and without any characterization to back it up, but I don't actually know her. 

[Puppy Love]

It isn't a duel between two sides and side sides alone.  In fact, many of the folks that find practical armor attractive and wish it's inclusion in our games (like me) aren't asking for the *exclusion* of other types of armor or clothing.  What we ask for is CHOICE and variety.  If there is to be a boobplate/boobsuit, or revealing and more showy outfit, then why can't there also be a practical combat armor and/or clothing that doesn't dip into the zone of male gaze?  If you offer choices to the player, and leave it up to them, then there isn't an issue.  

 

Likewise, on another side of the spectrum, why can there not be skimpy armors and clothing choices for dudes as well?  I'm for it.  If people find it ridiculous for men but not for women, then I think it says a lot.  

 

I'm all for sharing on all sides of this issue for both sexes, and encouraging more armor in the middle, but I don't see many on the practical armor side of the issue willing to do so.  Too many insisting that if they see anything else they won't buy the product, and insinuating anyone who wants anything else is an objectifying pervert intent on the degradation of women.

 

I want variety, that's all I'm asking for.  And I get bombarded with long arguments about realism in a fantasy game, and if I don't get that, it's always about how all these other games have half naked chicks with jiggle physics so I should go play that (which I happen to also find offensive btw as that's purely for sex appeal and not just something that's pretty that also happens to have a bit of sex appeal), or sims which I have zero interest in (like watching computer people doing random things is interesting.)

 

I have no issues with people like you willing to share, I want more people like you to say you're willing to share, because the "must be completely practical side" is shouting a lot louder than those that are willing to share.