123 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

No, I do not see what you are talking about. Because everything you feel would be a lie. You would live a fake life, you wouldn't even be alive. Emtion may be intangible but it is caused by life and experience which is real. I would rather be alive and miserable, than a meatsack toy for some demon's personal playground.

And what on earth made you think that you would be "eternally happy"? When you body dies, so will your Fade expression of self, in time. And why are you so quick to trust a demon? Honestly the entire idea of giving up everything you are, and everyone you have ever known, for an illusion of happiness is asinine, and almost the ultimate form of selfishness.

 

My advice is to go drink some tea and accept that the value other people place on their own lives is none of your business.

[Feybrad]

No, I do not see what you are talking about. Because everything you feel would be a lie. You would live a fake life, you wouldn't even be alive. Emtion may be intangible but it is caused by life and experience which is real. I would rather be alive and miserable, than a meatsack toy for some demon's personal playground.

And what on earth made you think that you would be "eternally happy"? When you body dies, so will your Fade expression of self, in time. And why are you so quick to trust a demon? Honestly the entire idea of giving up everything you are, and everyone you have ever known, for an illusion of happiness is asinine, and almost the ultimate form of selfishness.

 

You wouldn't know that it is a Lie. Everything would be real for you. You would be eternally and genuinely happy in a World that you perceive as real - think of it as the Matrix, only that you are guaranteed to be happy and it goes on after your Body dies.

 

And it would - Niall stayed completely conscious in the Fade, could even give critical Advice, while he was long dead in the real World when the Warden arrived. However, I would be interested in reading bits of Lore or Word of God that contradict my Impression, should they exist. Which I doubt.

 

But your Assesion of Selfishness is true. Yes, it would be a selfish Decision. I am a rather selfisch Person and even if it is factually only an Illusion, as long as I could reach eternal Happiness that seems real to me, I would pay this Price and would do it gladly. Because all People ever do is striving to be happy. If I could reach that Goal for all Eternity, that would be perfect.

[metalfenix]

For me... despair demons, maybe? I have some major depression issues, so I would be an easy target for that demon.

 

In second place, maybe pride or sloth.

 

Now that I think of it, is there a despair demon on DA mythology? A quest involving that kind of demon could be interesting.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You wouldn't know that it is a Lie. Everything would be real for you. You would be eternally and genuinely happy in a World that you perceive as real - think of it as the Matrix, only that you are guaranteed to be happy and it goes on after your Body dies.

 

And it would - Niall stayed completely conscious in the Fade, could even give critical Advice, while he was long dead in the real World when the Warden arrived. However, I would be interested in reading bits of Lore or Word of God that contradict my Impression, should they exist. Which I doubt.

 

But your Assesion of Selfishness is true. Yes, it would be a selfish Decision. I am a rather selfisch Person and even if it is factually only an Illusion, as long as I could reach eternal Happiness that seems real to me, I would pay this Price and would do it gladly. Because all People ever do is striving to be happy. If I could reach that Goal for all Eternity, that would be perfect.

No you would actually NOT be "genuinly happy" since EVERYTHING you would see would be a lie. So you would be ARTIFICALLY happy.

 

And yes, Nial was still in the Fade after his body died, but he would not have staid there. The spirits of the deceased sometimes linger in the Fade before they too pass on. Nial was on of those cases.

 

And once again, you are quick to trust a demon. What makes you think the demon would keep its end of the bargain once it had your soul? You would be its plaything, with what it could do as it pleases. You would have ZERO power to try and force the demon to keep its end of the bargain. You could end up in a living hell for the rest of your days, if that was what the demon wanted. All for your own vanity and selfishness.

[Feybrad]

No you would actually NOT be "genuinly happy" since EVERYTHING you would see would be a lie. So you would be ARTIFICALLY happy.

 

And yes, Nial was still in the Fade after his body died, but he would not have staid there. The spirits of the deceased sometimes linger in the Fade before they too pass on. Nial was on of those cases.

 

And once again, you are quick to trust a demon. What makes you think the demon would keep its end of the bargain once it had your soul? You would be its plaything, with what it could do as it pleases. You would have ZERO power to try and force the demon to keep its end of the bargain. You could end up in a living hell for the rest of your days, if that was what the demon wanted. All for your own vanity and selfishness.

 

I wouldn't know that it was artificially, thus, my Emotion would be genuine.

 

Confirmation? The whole "passing on" Part is religious Belief, for all we know. Nothing more. Also - in the DragonAge Comic (the one with Gleam) her Mother, who was dead for seventeen Years, killed by a Templar, meets up with her in the Fade, defends her from a Demon in the Fade and even forcefully brings a Templar into the Fade. All that seventeen Years after she was killed by Sword-trough-Belly.

 

But the Demon kept up the bargain with the Warden and Friends, without even being asked for it. It offered an improved Version after the Warden broke out of the Illusion, despite the clearly malicious Intent of the Warden (from the Demon's Perspective). Of course I am very trusting right there, but to me, that Demon seems to be a pretty chill Dude.

[GalacticDonuts]

For myself? Definitely Despair followed by Sloth, between my bouts of depression and lack of motivation and I can be surprisingly apathetic(always been like this), those two fade spirits would doom me. Also Rage, I don't lose my temper easily but when it happens...run, pray, and run some more.

 

My Inquisitor's weakness will probably be Pride and Desire mixed in with a little Fear.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I wouldn't know that it was artificially, thus, my Emotion would be genuine.

 

Confirmation? The whole "passing on" Part is religious Belief, for all we know. Nothing more. Also - in the DragonAge Comic (the one with Gleam) her Mother, who was dead for seventeen Years, killed by a Templar, meets up with her in the Fade, defends her from a Demon in the Fade and even forcefully brings a Templar into the Fade. All that seventeen Years after she was killed by Sword-trough-Belly.

 

But the Demon kept up the bargain with the Warden and Friends, without even being asked for it. It offered an improved Version after the Warden broke out of the Illusion, despite the clearly malicious Intent of the Warden (from the Demon's Perspective). Of course I am very trusting right there, but to me, that Demon seems to be a pretty chill Dude.

It does not matter that you don't know. It would all be a lie.

 

Uhm.. Nial himself is confirmation of it... And both the Chantry and the Elves believe that souls of the dead ligners in the Fade for a time. And the fact that this could easily be verified by ANY mage, means that this is one of those things that is probably true, since it hasn't been debunked in thousands of years.

 

Yeah... The demon calling you and everyone else trapped in its realm slaves.... What a "chill dude".... It certainly didn't have any ulterior motives for your entrapment and leeching fo your life... It was all altruistic surely.....

[Feybrad]

It does not matter that you don't know. It would all be a lie.

 

Uhm.. Nial himself is confirmation of it... And both the Chantry and the Elves believe that souls of the dead ligners in the Fade for a time. And the fact that this could easily be verified by ANY mage, means that this is one of those things that is probably true, since it hasn't been debunked in thousands of years.

 

Yeah... The demon calling you and everyone else trapped in its realm slaves.... What a "chill dude".... It certainly didn't have any ulterior motives for your entrapment and leeching fo your life... It was all altruistic surely.....

 

All that matters is what I know, because that's what would affect my Happiness.

 

Look at this Wiki Entry: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Veness In that Article it says, she kept herself in the Fade, meaning that it is possible to keep People's Souls in the Fade. The Demon probably does just that.

 

The Demon doesn't call you "Slaves"... I didn't say it's altruistic - which it is certainly not as it forces People into the Deal - but that doesn't make the Deal itself worse, if made voluntarily.

[Medhia_Nox]

Wait... we're aware desire demons FEED on us when we accept their lies yes? 

And - not gonna lie - maddeningly selfish to not care what everyone else in your life would think about you jacking into the Matrix. 

[Feybrad]

Wait... we're aware desire demons FEED on us when we accept their lies yes? 

And - not gonna lie - maddeningly selfish to not care what everyone else in your life would think about you jacking into the Matrix. 

 

I am aware of that (even though it's about Sloth Demons, but the same Thing goes for Desire Demons). I stated that I do not cae as long as I have eternal Happiness, that feels real to me.

 

And yes. It is selfish. If I am presented with an Opportunity akin to that I would totally be selfish. Eternal Happiness isn't something I wouldn't pass on.

[Chewin]

Pride, most likely.

[Arvaarad]

There's actually a philosophy question surrounding what's being debated here. It's usually called something like the "pleasure machine" or the "happiness box" - basically, if we had amazing virtual reality tech and could simulate a wonderful, fulfilling existence, would you abandon real life to do that?

People are very, very divided on the question. I think it comes down to personal preference.

[EmperorSahlertz]

All that matters is what I know, because that's what would affect my Happiness.

 

Look at this Wiki Entry: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Veness In that Article it says, she kept herself in the Fade, meaning that it is possible to keep People's Souls in the Fade. The Demon probably does just that.

 

The Demon doesn't call you "Slaves"... I didn't say it's altruistic - which it is certainly not as it forces People into the Deal - but that doesn't make the Deal itself worse, if made voluntarily.

That is an extremely limited point of view.

 

First of all, that does nothing to disprove my point. Second of all, that comic is in a state of canon-limbo. In any case, the spirits of the dead can linger in the Fade, but there is nothing that indicates they can remain there indifinitely. Quite the contrary actually.

 

"What is this, a rebellious minion, an escaped SLAVE?" Yes... Yes it does. And there is NOTHING at all, that indicates what it offers would last forever. But it would surely use that word to trick gullible fools into a deal with it... And you still havn't answered why you are so quick to trust a Demon that would leech of your lifeforce, and would have absolutely no reason to keep its end of the bargain once it has you ensnared.

[Sylentmana]

Most likely Sloth for me most of the time, though, a Rage demon could get me under the right circumstances.

[CrimsonN7]

Sloth, I'm lazy as f00k.

[Tevinter Rose]

For me desire and envy, I'm always left wanting, kind of restless.

For my Inquisitor, pride, being the only one who could close fade tears would blow up her ego.

[Ravensword]

Probably Sloth and desire.

[Feybrad]

That is an extremely limited point of view.

 

First of all, that does nothing to disprove my point. Second of all, that comic is in a state of canon-limbo. In any case, the spirits of the dead can linger in the Fade, but there is nothing that indicates they can remain there indifinitely. Quite the contrary actually.

 

"What is this, a rebellious minion, an escaped SLAVE?" Yes... Yes it does. And there is NOTHING at all, that indicates what it offers would last forever. But it would surely use that word to trick gullible fools into a deal with it... And you still havn't answered why you are so quick to trust a Demon that would leech of your lifeforce, and would have absolutely no reason to keep its end of the bargain once it has you ensnared.

 

That is my Point of View, which I regard as realistic.

 

Show where the Canon of that Comic is put to Doubt. There is no proof that they can not linger indefinitely. Like I said, it is only Belief that the Spirits carry on and where they are going. We do not know what happens to them.

 

I am quick to trust that Demon because it seems genuine in it's Offer, as it has shown to put the Warden and the Companions in Illusionary Worlds, where they were happy, even though these Worlds are imperfect. It has also said, that it is able to make these Worlds better and provide happiness for Eternity. I am a Perosn, that always takes the easy Road. Maybe I am gullible, but just as I believe, that Demons are not inherently bad (for example, look at that Templar and the Desire Demon right before you encounter Sloth: That Templar was alive and happy, while the Demon got what it wanted and had no Ambition to harm anyone that didn't pose a Threat) I believe, that Demons like Sloth could be honorable in Terms of keeping their Promises.

 

There's actually a philosophy question surrounding what's being debated here. It's usually called something like the "pleasure machine" or the "happiness box" - basically, if we had amazing virtual reality tech and could simulate a wonderful, fulfilling existence, would you abandon real life to do that?

 

Yup, we are basically debating the Possibility of such a Thing via demonic Magic in the Dragon Age Universe.

 

But, regardless of the Universe, I would totally abandon Real Life to do that. It's not that my Real Life sucks, it's just that such a Machine would certainly make it better. Why bother with a normal Life, when you can have Perfection?

[SofaJockey]

I'd go for

• fear,
• surprise,
• ruthless efficiency,
• fanatical devotion
• nice red uniforms
• and maybe one more...

That or the demon of insincerity...

[raging_monkey]

I fall into rage not having a temper but rightious fury for the elimination of injustice

[Medhia_Nox]

@Feybrad:  And who is going to take care of your failing body?  

 

Your happiness will literally last 3-5 days (the amount of time someone can last without water).

 

There's no reason for the demon to waste any more time than that - you're just one limited mortal experience.  

 

And when it's done with you... it'll leave you gasping and dying on the cold stone floor.  

 

Sounds perfect to me!

[EmperorSahlertz]

That is my Point of View, which I regard as realistic.

 

Show where the Canon of that Comic is put to Doubt. There is no proof that they can not linger indefinitely. Like I said, it is only Belief that the Spirits carry on and where they are going. We do not know what happens to them.

 

I am quick to trust that Demon because it seems genuine in it's Offer, as it has shown to put the Warden and the Companions in Illusionary Worlds, where they were happy, even though these Worlds are imperfect. It has also said, that it is able to make these Worlds better and provide happiness for Eternity. I am a Perosn, that always takes the easy Road. Maybe I am gullible, but just as I believe, that Demons are not inherently bad (for example, look at that Templar and the Desire Demon right before you encounter Sloth: That Templar was alive and happy, while the Demon got what it wanted and had no Ambition to harm anyone that didn't pose a Threat) I believe, that Demons like Sloth could be honorable in Terms of keeping their Promises.

Limited does not preclude realistic. Your view may be realistic, but it is also horribly limited.

 

There are several inconsistencies between the comic and the canon established by the game. For instance Knight-Commander Greagoir's attitude, and the Kinloch Hold Circle's general day-to-day running. There is also that whole "used my force of will and love for my child to sustain myself in the Fade", which is complete bogus and never otherwise used in ANY source material.

 

No, we do not know what happens to the dead after they die. We DO know that some of them are in the Fade, at least for a time. The one proof that the dead cannot linger in the Fade indefinitely is that the Fade is not actually fileld to the brim with the souls of dead people. Millions if not indeed billions of people ahve died over the course of Thedas' history, yet the Fade is not filled with the souls of the dead, meeting the spirit of a deceased is not a common occurence in the Fade.

 

That Desire Demon was LITERALLY killing the Templar..... It was leeching off of him, slowly killing him. It was a metaphysical parasite that poisons its victim with a hallucigenetic drug, that makes the victim complacent, so that it doesn't fight back. And it had every intention to continue that trend once it had bled this Templar dry.

 

And again, WHY would a demon keep its end of the bargain once your body is dead? It would gain NOTHING from the continued existance of you in its Fade Realm. More likely it would just get rid of you, snuffing out your existance, so that it wouldn't have to waste precious power and energy on maintaining your illusion of happiness. Why would it think twice? You are nothing but a meatsack to it.

[Tevinter Soldier]

-- Rage: not so much.....unless i'm driving?

 

-- Hunger: depends is hunger food or are we talking metaphorical?

 

-- Sloth: damn there goes my soul.

 

-- Desire: biggest hidden secret of mine is deep down i want to find a girl, settle down, get married, atleast i'll die with cat stevens in my dead i guess. 

 

-- Pride: this is a coin toss i can be prideful at times but generally i don't give a F about admitting faults or boasting.

 

-- Despair: only susceptible the last week before pay (damn monthly income!) 

 

-- Fear: fear i can handle i used to dealing with fear and can push it aside.

 

-- Terror: experienced this once in my life completely froze up, but i don't get recurring nightmares or anything like some vet's so maybe?

 

 

-- Envy: quite the opposite once someone else has something i'm not really interested  

 

-- Remorse: and the last verse of father and son becomes relevant as i become a vessel for evil.

[Feybrad]

Limited does not preclude realistic. Your view may be realistic, but it is also horribly limited.

 

There are several inconsistencies between the comic and the canon established by the game. For instance Knight-Commander Greagoir's attitude, and the Kinloch Hold Circle's general day-to-day running. There is also that whole "used my force of will and love for my child to sustain myself in the Fade", which is complete bogus and never otherwise used in ANY source material.

 

No, we do not know what happens to the dead after they die. We DO know that some of them are in the Fade, at least for a time. The one proof that the dead cannot linger in the Fade indefinitely is that the Fade is not actually fileld to the brim with the souls of dead people. Millions if not indeed billions of people ahve died over the course of Thedas' history, yet the Fade is not filled with the souls of the dead, meeting the spirit of a deceased is not a common occurence in the Fade.

 

That Desire Demon was LITERALLY killing the Templar..... It was leeching off of him, slowly killing him. It was a metaphysical parasite that poisons its victim with a hallucigenetic drug, that makes the victim complacent, so that it doesn't fight back. And it had every intention to continue that trend once it had bled this Templar dry.

 

And again, WHY would a demon keep its end of the bargain once your body is dead? It would gain NOTHING from the continued existance of you in its Fade Realm. More likely it would just get rid of you, snuffing out your existance, so that it wouldn't have to waste precious power and energy on maintaining your illusion of happiness. Why would it think twice? You are nothing but a meatsack to it.

 

Ta-daaa.

 

It's still Canon unless someone official says otherwise.

 

And how do you know that the Fade isn't filled to the Brim with the Souls of Millions of dead People. The Fade could be effing big for all we know about it. Perhaps it doesn't even have Limits. OR, as I think, People like Demons or Mages are able to keep the Souls of the Dead inside the Fade.

 

Aaaand where do you take that from? I don't think I can remember any Instance where the Demons who kept inside the Illusion of a Desire Demon die (that is a Difference from that Sloth Demon, maybe, because the Desire Demon Illusion was not inside the Fade itself). In Fact, the Desire Demon wanted "to feel like a mortal" or something along these lines. It is never stated that it would kill that Templar and it itself states, it just wants to be left alone, as it has everything it wants. That doesn't really imply "I'm going to suck the Life out of that Guy and then do so with other People" to me. As I said, to see the Demons and their Powers as inherently evil is false.

 

Because the Demon is not the giant Ass you make it out to be and keeps his End of the Bargain. I mean, what does it loose? Why does it keep People like Niall or the other Dreamers you meet in it's Fade Realm alive despite them being dead? In Fact, there is Evidence of it not just "snuffing out Souls". Which is why I would be optimistic about it keeping it's End of the Deal. I can never be sure, if that's what you want to hear, but I see my Odds as being pretty good.

 

But I'm tired now and we're derailing the Thread. If you're interested in continuous Discussion, PM me. Good Night.