105 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

Plan B could be a continued alliance with those dwelling topside; seemed to work well enough in my games. And of course, there are few remaining of the sacrificed to object. The golems are hardly necessary.

You've argued on another thread how putting wardens through russian roulette joinings for centuries between blights was "necessary" and yet you don't see this as such?

 

That alliance was for the dwarves to go topside; not the opposite. You think the topside forces are going to bother moving their armies down to Orzammar where it's like a blight 24/7 out of the goodness of their hearts? And forever? I suppose far more lives would be saved by throwing these non-golem, non-dwarves at the darkspawn, right? Pfft. Talk about blind idealism. If the anvil of the void isn't a situation for a necessary evil I don't know what is. But it's clear you're adamant about being against the anvil so you'll come up with these ridiculous scenarios that have no indication of happening nor succeeding to support your stance so let's just agree to disagree.

[Elhanan]

That alliance was for the dwarves to go topside; not the opposite. You think the topside forces are going to bother moving their armies down to Orzammar where it's like a blight 24/7 out of the goodness of their hearts? And forever? I suppose far more lives would be saved by throwing these non-golem, non-dwarves at the darkspawn, right? Pfft. Talk about blind idealism. If the anvil of the void isn't a situation for a necessary evil I don't know what is. But it's clear you're adamant about being against the anvil so you'll come up with these ridiculous scenarios that have no indication of happening nor succeeding to support your stance so let's just agree to disagree.

This from the one that equates Loghain to Hitler. It is somewhat more obvious to me that the Paragon smith is closer to this RL comparison than the General.

Yes, I agree to disagree, even w/o the use of pejorative posts in the reply.

[Jaison1986]

This from the one that equates Loghain to Hitler. It is somewhat more obvious to me that the Paragon smith is closer to this RL comparison than the General.

Yes, I agree to disagree, even w/o the use of pejorative posts in the reply.

 

You don't need to use pejoratives when you are already acting self righteous.

 

congokong is right, forcing people into the wardens is just as moraly wicked as making golems, you are stealing both their lifes for the sake of an cause, and you defended the grey warden joining practices as justified. And that's simply a double standard. I, at least understand that both practices are wrong, but still exist for an reason.

[Elhanan]

You don't need to use pejoratives when you are already acting self righteous.
 
congokong is right, forcing people into the wardens is just as moraly wicked as making golems, you are stealing both their lifes for the sake of an cause, and you defended the grey warden joining practices as justified. And that's simply a double standard. I, at least understand that both practices are wrong, but still exist for an reason.

The Joining leaves survivors; the Anvil does not. And the comparison was placed afterwards via edit; see the original quote in my post.

There is no good reason for saving the Anvil, though I concede there may be bad ones.

[Jaison1986]

The Joining leaves survivors; the Anvil does not. And the comparison was placed afterwards via edit; see the original quote in my post.

There is no good reason for saving the Anvil, though I concede there may be bad ones.

 

Everyone that is put to the anvil survives. They live on as golems, or did you forget that Shale is just as alive anyone else? And there is good reason to save the anvil. The golems that come from it push the darkspawn back and keep the dwarfs safe without sacrificing as many soldiers. Or are you implying that sacrificing hundreds of soldiers in the frontlines is more acceptable than a few dozen to the golems?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

When Shale asks Oghren if he thinks it was wrong to destroy the anvil, he replies no because sometimes people have to be stopped from doing stupid things even if they do them for good reasons.

 

It's a weak argument, though. What's stupid about going under the hammer voluntarily if you're sick, disabled, or elderly and near death? You'll make use of yourself and help your nation in a just cause to stop Darkspawn. Compare that to the Wardens, who conscript young and healthy individuals into a ritual that will either kill them immediately or significantly cut their lifespans shorter just so that they can be vanguards against the Darkspawn -- even when there's no blight!

[Elhanan]

Everyone that is put to the anvil survives. They live on as golems, or did you forget that Shale is just as alive anyone else? And there is good reason to save the anvil. The golems that come from it push the darkspawn back and keep the dwarfs safe without sacrificing as many soldiers. Or are you implying that sacrificing hundreds of soldiers in the frontlines is more acceptable than a few dozen to the golems?

Shale volunteered to become such a tool, and after that did not really seem very pleased at taking commands from others, nor resting for such vast periods of time. And such tools are not alive; tis the point. Sacrificing the living is not justification, as Caradin himself confesses; whether it is voluntarily or not.

War is horrible, which is why the wise have it as it as a last resort. When the so called civilized are willing to sacrifice others to eliminate such horror, they cease to be civil. Seem to recall an episode of the original Star Trek series that illustrated this point rather well.

[themikefest]

I saved it once only to get the trophy. All the other times I destroy it.

[gottaloveme]

I have always destroyed it but now am thinking - golems + wardens + legionnaires + dwarven miners striking into the deep roads and trying to find the OGs and kill them before they become archies.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I have always destroyed it but now am thinking - golems + wardens + legionnaires + dwarven miners striking into the deep roads and trying to find the OGs and kill them before they become archies.

 

Now we're talking! 

[Riven326]

I've done both. My goody-two-shoes Wardens usually destroy it, while my evil Wardens or my extremely pragmatic Wardens preserve it.

 

As for Shale, I never lose her, even if I preserve the Anvil. I just don't bring her with me to the Anvil of the Void, and then when I get back to camp and she asks me about Caridin, I lie shamelessly and tell her I never saw him. You can still get Shale's personal quest. Just bring her to the Deep Roads and travel around a bit. I believe if you travel to Ortan Thaig, a cutscene will trigger, and she will tell you about Cadash Thaig.

 

I found that you don't actually have to lie to Shale to get her to stay in your party. You tell her the truth and she asks why she should stay. At that point I believe you have to pass a persuasion check.

[TheMadHarridan]

I found that you don't actually have to lie to Shale to get her to stay in your party. You tell her the truth and she asks why she should stay. At that point I believe you have to pass a persuasion check.

 

True. I should have said lying is the only option that doesn't get you an approval loss, so that's why I usually choose it. I hate getting a huge approval loss from Shale, as I adore her. It makes me sad. I would even romance her, but alas, her heart belongs to Sten and the way the light plays across his muscles. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Everyone that is put to the anvil survives. They live on as golems, or did you forget that Shale is just as alive anyone else? And there is good reason to save the anvil. The golems that come from it push the darkspawn back and keep the dwarfs safe without sacrificing as many soldiers. Or are you implying that sacrificing hundreds of soldiers in the frontlines is more acceptable than a few dozen to the golems?

It's true that the Joinging comparison is flawed for several reasons

 

1. As you said becoming  a Golem is 100% likely, while becoming a Grey Warden is always a gamble.

 

2. Golems can still live in Orzammar while becoming a Grey Warden basically means you can never go home again.

[cJohnOne]

Most of the Dwarven empire was destroyed by the Dark Spawn.  The golems held them back for a time. I don't know what Caridin was thinking since the anvil seems to be needed for survival of the Race.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Most of the Dwarven empire was destroyed by the Dark Spawn.  The golems held them back for a time. I don't know what Caridin was thinking since the anvil seems to be needed for survival of the Race.

 

Guilt clouds reason.

[Riven326]

I agree. His guilt does play a large part in him wanting it destroyed; and without the Anvil, it seems more likely the dwarves will eventually face extinction.

[gottaloveme]

True. I should have said lying is the only option that doesn't get you an approval loss, so that's why I usually choose it. I hate getting a huge approval loss from Shale, as I adore her. It makes me sad. I would even romance her, but alas, her heart belongs to Sten and the way the light plays across his muscles. 

 

How sleep deprived are you? You romantic, you.

[gottaloveme]

Golems - control rods

Wardens - no control rods

[TheMadHarridan]

How sleep deprived are you? You romantic, you.

 

Lol, I know, right? Well, I am actually an insomniac, so I'm always at least some measure of sleep deprived. But I just love Shale. Of course, I'd probably need to save the romancing until after she becomes a Dwarf again; otherwise, it would likely be very painful and disturbing. However, even if/when she became a squishy flesh creature again, I just know Sten would steal her sarcastic heart away. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Golems - control rods
Wardens - Taint

There ya goooo!!

[Magdalena11]

I always destroy the anvil because it enslaves people.  The argument that volunteers having their souls transferred from a mortal, flesh body into an immortal, golem one is valid.  The enslavement part comes in when you add a control rod.

[HTTP 404]

I'd rather be a warden than a golem.  Why you ask?  quite simple, I would still be me in my flesh and blood.  I would rather risk the joining than be a golem.  Ben Grimm from Fantastic Four would agree with me.

 

But if being a golem meant saving my home and for what ever reason I couldn't wield a sword or contribute to the war effort (aiding the wounded, growing crops for soldiers, building defenses, etc.) then I would be a golem but that would be on the bottom of the list of things I could do to help out in the war effort.

[sylvanaerie]

I destroyed it in all my games.  The golems aren't alive, they are body controlled slaves, subjected to any indignity their captor conceives, even if their minds seem to be free (since Shale obviously remembers her treatment at the hands of Wilhelm).  If it weren't for the control rods I may see it differently, but I find it so personally abhorrent to enslave another (even someone who volunteers) I just could never bring myself to preserve it for keeps.  I did it once to get the achievement and then reloaded.  Shale may have her mind--as does Caridin, but his apprentices didn't build a control rod for him and it took centuries for Shale to find herself again, being an inactive statue in the deep roads for many decades before Wilhelm found her.

 

Plus, the sociopathic Branka won't stop at just volunteers, we have clear cut evidence of this in the game when she uses everyone in her house as tools (and can't comprehend why they may feel betrayed by their paragon--feeling herself above reproach).  She really doesn't see people as people, only tools to be used for her own goals.  Harrowmont lacks the strength of personality to oppose her, Bhelen is as sociopathic as she is, using people to get what he wants and discarding them without a thought when they no longer are of use to him. 

 

Dwarven politics is cutthroat enough without adding that loaded gun to the mix. 

[mousestalker]

If you discuss the Anvil with Oghren after you destroy it, he gives you a pretty good idea about what would have happened. Which is confirmed by what does happen if you do not destroy it.

[Magdalena11]

I destroyed it in all my games.  The golems aren't alive, they are body controlled slaves, subjected to any indignity their captor conceives, even if their minds seem to be free (since Shale obviously remembers her treatment at the hands of Wilhelm).  If it weren't for the control rods I may see it differently, but I find it so personally abhorrent to enslave another (even someone who volunteers) I just could never bring myself to preserve it for keeps.  I did it once to get the achievement and then reloaded.  Shale may have her mind--as does Caridin, but his apprentices didn't build a control rod for him and it took centuries for Shale to find herself again, being an inactive statue in the deep roads for many decades before Wilhelm found her.

 

Plus, the sociopathic Branka won't stop at just volunteers, we have clear cut evidence of this in the game when she uses everyone in her house as tools (and can't comprehend why they may feel betrayed by their paragon--feeling herself above reproach).  She really doesn't see people as people, only tools to be used for her own goals.  Harrowmont lacks the strength of personality to oppose her, Bhelen is as sociopathic as she is, using people to get what he wants and discarding them without a thought when they no longer are of use to him. 

 

Dwarven politics is cutthroat enough without adding that loaded gun to the mix. 

Regarding the use of golems as tools, Wynne's banter with Shale backs this up.  Even taking the moral high ground every time she can, she's never looked at it that way, and seems pretty disconcerted about her complacency.

 

If you discuss the Anvil with Oghren after you destroy it, he gives you a pretty good diea about what would have happened. Which is confirmed by what does happen if you do not destroy it.

And folks still try to fix it and are surprised when it doesn't work as planned.