105 réponses à ce sujet

[mrs_anomaly]

I always destroy the Anvil (not that I would judge others for not destroying it- because it's a game/story choice yo) because I tend to run my Wardens, and roleplay a more Paragon-ish pov. My Warden sees that the world is dark- and doesn't want to add to the darkness. Her work is of the highest difficulty obviously but destroying it seems to be the tidiest way of holding off abuse and Caridin's own plea to destroy what HE himself created also weighs in on her choice. Also the fact that golems are controlled by control rods- even if one volunteered to be a golem- you are using them as automatons and as we see in Shale, golems are not unfeeling, they still retain the essence of who they are. As for the Dwarves going extinct- that doesn't need to happen whatsoever. If they go extinct it is because they absolutely refuse to help themselves. They refuse to move out of the underworld- they COULD go to the surface. I know it goes against everything in their tradition and culture, but we are talking about the survival of your race. So if you're so willing to enslave people to be golems because that's the price of survival, then what's the REAL issue with also weighing other options like: moving out of the caverns and enlisting the help of the other races like the Warden herself does. Granted I know she has treaties, but if the Dwarven kingdom has a treaty with the Grey Wardens, it is not inconceivable that they could use some diplomacy to ensure they actually get help from the surfacers- it could be as simple as stating "help us or we'll be an entire nation of refugees on your doorstep". 

 

So my warden feels like while the Anvil would certainly be a great resource against the darkspawn, at what cost? 

[Beerfish]

So my warden feels like while the Anvil would certainly be a great resource against the darkspawn, at what cost? 

Only a few measly dwarves. 

[congokong]

 

So my warden feels like while the Anvil would certainly be a great resource against the darkspawn, at what cost? 

It comes back to this hypothetical question: is sacrificing hundreds of dwarves and/or surfacers on the frontlines to the darkspawn more acceptable than a few dozen to the golems? Even if your relocation ideas were feasible, the darkspawn will have to be fought.

[Elhanan]

It comes back to this hypothetical question: is sacrificing hundreds of dwarves and/or surfacers on the frontlines to the darkspawn more acceptable than a few dozen to the golems? Even if your relocation ideas were feasible, the darkspawn will have to be fought.

Prefer to do it with my morality intact.

"The 'morality of compromise' sounds contradictory. Compromise is usually a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat. Strong men don't compromise, it is said, and principles should never be compromised." - Andrew Carnegie

[congokong]

Prefer to do it with my morality intact.

"The 'morality of compromise' sounds contradictory. Compromise is usually a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat. Strong men don't compromise, it is said, and principles should never be compromised." - Andrew Carnegie

Says the person who wants to force wardens into joinings for centuries between blights.

 

And personally, I'd rather have my race be alive with potentially compromised morals than extinct with it intact. Reminds me of Javik and the reapers in Mass Effect 3.

[mrs_anomaly]

Says the person who wants to force wardens into joinings for centuries between blights.

 

And personally, I'd rather have my race be alive with potentially compromised morals than extinct with it intact. Reminds me of Javik and the reapers in Mass Effect 3.

 

I personally think Grey Wardens and Golems are apples and oranges. While the Wardens can use conscription to draft new Wardens- those that go through the joining risk death and have shortened lifetimes, a person as a Warden is still seen as a person. The general public doesn't even know what makes you a GW besides just being part of the order. You can still hold a baby with your own arms and hands, still take a lover with passion, and still exist in your society if curbed by duty- you still exist. It is an honor for some and a punishment for others but you wouldn't be a GW your entire life- it is possible to leave (re: Anders). Once you are golem that is it, you are a golem IIRC. And if someone or anyone has your control rod you are screwed whether you volunteered or not. 

[congokong]

I personally think Grey Wardens and Golems are apples and oranges. While the Wardens can use conscription to draft new Wardens- those that go through the joining risk death and have shortened lifetimes, a person as a Warden is still seen as a person. The general public doesn't even know what makes you a GW besides just being part of the order. You can still hold a baby with your own arms and hands, still take a lover with passion, and still exist in your society if curbed by duty- you still exist. It is an honor for some and a punishment for others but you wouldn't be a GW your entire life- it is possible to leave (re: Anders). Once you are golem that is it, you are a golem IIRC. And if someone or anyone has your control rod you are screwed whether you volunteered or not. 

The details are different but the principles are the same. The acquisition of Grey Wardens follows an "ends-justify-the-means" mentality just as the acquisition of golems does.

[Elhanan]

Says the person who wants to force wardens into joinings for centuries between blights.
 
And personally, I'd rather have my race be alive with potentially compromised morals than extinct with it intact. Reminds me of Javik and the reapers in Mass Effect 3.

You misrepresent my stance, as I have oft stated that I would not use force, and would leave that method in the past.

And Javik is not human; prefer humanity over tyranny, slavery, and the like.

[congokong]

You misrepresent my stance, as I have oft stated that I would not use force, and would leave that method in the past.

And Javik is not human; prefer humanity over tyranny, slavery, and the like.

No one needs to "force" people into being golems either ideally.

 

lol Javik not being human has NOTHING to do with it.

 

But how about we stop talking to each other about this as I said earlier since we just argue endlessly?

[sylvanaerie]

As a golem you are (essentially) immortal till broken.  An immortal slave to whomever holds your control rod.  You will outlive family, friends, possibly even your race (there is no guarantee your sacrifice will work to hold the darkspawn at bay--how many dwarven citadels were lost even with Golems?).

And you will remember it all (unless, and I am unsure if I can even call dim memories you can barely recall a 'mercy', your memories dim as Shale's did).  You are unable to talk or interact with others in any way unless commanded to do so (I assume that's how Wilhelm learned whatever he did about Shale).  You will never experience any of the simple pleasure of being alive other living beings take for granted from love and children to being able to feel the sun on your face.

 

As a warden you are still human/dwarf/elf and alive.  You can feel, and enjoy life.  The Joining doesn't take away your free will, making you a slave to ANOTHER person's control.  It doesn't condemn you to a lonely immortality trapped in an alien body that dances on some puppet master's strings, your only purpose to kill darkspawn until you either are destroyed or spend centuries wasting away in a dark forgotten corner of the Deep Roads.

[sylvanaerie]

No one needs to "force" people into being golems either ideally.

 

lol Javik not being human has NOTHING to do with it.

 

But how about we stop talking to each other about this as I said earlier since we just argue endlessly?

 

The problem with this is with Branka or EITHER of the two who will be left in charge, it won't be JUST volunteers.  I can easily see political enemies, casteless and surface people being forced into the anvil to justify the need to create golems (or simply to rid yourself of enemies or 'undesirables').

[congokong]

As a golem you are (essentially) immortal till broken.  An immortal slave to whomever holds your control rod.  You will outlive family, friends, possibly even your race (there is no guarantee your sacrifice will work to hold the darkspawn at bay--how many dwarven citadels were lost even with Golems?).

And you will remember it all (unless, and I am unsure if I can even call dim memories you can barely recall a 'mercy', your memories dim as Shale's did).  You are unable to talk or interact with others in any way unless commanded to do so (I assume that's how Wilhelm learned whatever he did about Shale).  You will never experience any of the simple pleasure of being alive other living beings take for granted from love and children to being able to feel the sun on your face.

 

As a warden you are still human/dwarf/elf and alive.  You can feel, and enjoy life.  The Joining doesn't take away your free will, making you a slave to ANOTHER person's control.  It doesn't condemn you to a lonely immortality trapped in an alien body that dances on some puppet master's strings, your only purpose to kill darkspawn until you either are destroyed or spend centuries wasting away in a dark forgotten corner of the Deep Roads.

 

Trying to argue "well Golems are worse off than wardens, so therefore that makes ends-justify-the-means wrong/right in this case" is subjective and contradictory to never compromising morality.

 

The problem with this is with Branka or EITHER of the two who will be left in charge, it won't be JUST volunteers.  I can easily see political enemies, casteless and surface people being forced into the anvil to justify the need to create golems (or simply to rid yourself of enemies or 'undesirables').

And the same damn thing applies to Grey Wardens. Ideally both could be volunteers only but both succumb to practicality over idealism. The whole premise of Grey Warden recruitment is based on compromised morality. They don't reveal anything about the joining for example until you're about to do it and then kill you if you get cold feet. Ex: Jory

[Elhanan]

Becoming a golem almost always kills the donor; Shale may be the only example of reversing this effect, and that is still speculative.

Becoming a Warden is hazardous, but many survive the Joining.

[Beerfish]

I actually decided to keep the anvil on my last play through which I very rarely do.  I was even playing a mostly paragon warden, however I forgot the consequences of having Shale/Shayle with you at that part and she went against me and i had to kill her. 

[Elhanan]

I actually decided to keep the anvil on my last play through which I very rarely do.  I was even playing a mostly paragon warden, however I forgot the consequences of having Shale/Shayle with you at that part and she went against me and i had to kill her. 

A fair illustration of the RP morality/ mentality needed to make yet another sacrifice. Personally, I feel more for Oghren at this point, as I cannot let Branka proceed.

[sylvanaerie]

Trying to argue "well Golems are worse off than wardens, so therefore that makes ends-justify-the-means wrong/right in this case" is subjective and contradictory to never compromising morality.

 

And the same damn thing applies to Grey Wardens. Ideally both could be volunteers only but both succumb to practicality over idealism. The whole premise of Grey Warden recruitment is based on compromised morality. They don't reveal anything about the joining for example until you're about to do it and then kill you if you get cold feet. Ex: Jory

 

And arguing that both are 'the same' is also subjective and contradictory to compromising morality.  Wardens are ALIVE and free willed.  Golems are not.  The two situations are NOT the same.

 

Yes, wardens can be dicks, I never argued against that (and I suspect that there are even betting pools among the less nice ones as to who will survive the Joinings among the new recruits).  All I am saying is wardens are free willed, golems are slaves, and wardens can abandon the order (as Anders does), even if the taint means they will always be wardens (till they are dead).  Golems don't have that luxury. 

 

I have an issue with the control rods, and the potential for abuse that exists with Branka and Harrowmont/Bhelen, not so much the golems themselves

[congokong]

And arguing that both are 'the same' is also subjective and contradictory to compromising morality.  Wardens are ALIVE and free willed.  Golems are not.  The two situations are NOT the same.

 

Yes, wardens can be dicks, I never argued against that (and I suspect that there are even betting pools among the less nice ones as to who will survive the Joinings among the new recruits).  All I am saying is wardens are free willed, golems are slaves, and wardens can abandon the order (as Anders does), even if the taint means they will always be wardens (till they are dead).  Golems don't have that luxury. 

 

I have an issue with the control rods, and the potential for abuse that exists with Branka and Harrowmont/Bhelen, not so much the golems themselves

Shale isn't alive? Her motions were controlled with a rod but she had a mind of her own.

 

Wardens/golems both being the same in that they follow an "ends justify the means" mentality is not subjective. It's fact. But saying "ends justify the means is ok here but not here" on the other hand is subjective, as is saying who is worse off: an immortal but enslaved golem or a free-willed but duty-bound, nightmare ridden, short-lived Grey Warden (if you survive)? People can't take the moral high ground when they start cherry-picking morality like that.

[Jaison1986]

And arguing that both are 'the same' is also subjective and contradictory to compromising morality.  Wardens are ALIVE and free willed.  Golems are not.  The two situations are NOT the same.

 

Yes, wardens can be dicks, I never argued against that (and I suspect that there are even betting pools among the less nice ones as to who will survive the Joinings among the new recruits).  All I am saying is wardens are free willed, golems are slaves, and wardens can abandon the order (as Anders does), even if the taint means they will always be wardens (till they are dead).  Golems don't have that luxury. 

 

I have an issue with the control rods, and the potential for abuse that exists with Branka and Harrowmont/Bhelen, not so much the golems themselves

 

While not the same in practice, it's very much the same in principle. Dragging people to throw aways everything they have, like it or not, to fulfill an mission, be it stopping the blights or keeping the darkspawn at bay in the deep roads.

 

Wardens might not have control rods, but they have the taint, and that will aways control them, because even if they run away, they will eventually find themselves dragged back to the darkspawn. I understand when people feel making golems is an wicked practice, but it boils my blood when they deny what the grey wardens do is just as bad. I don't know why they do it. Does it taint their view as the good guys? That they can't accept that by principle, the grey wardens are evil?

[Elhanan]

While not the same in practice, it's very much the same in principle. Dragging people to throw aways everything they have, like it or not, to fulfill an mission, be it stopping the blights or keeping the darkspawn at bay in the deep roads.
 
Wardens might not have control rods, but they have the taint, and that will aways control them, because even if they run away, they will eventually find themselves dragged back to the darkspawn. I understand when people feel making golems is an wicked practice, but it boils my blood when they deny what the grey wardens do is just as bad. I don't know why they do it. Does it taint their view as the good guys? That they can't accept that by principle, the grey wardens are evil?

No, as Warden's shoulder this adversity in service to others. And Golems are not living creatures; they are constructs.

[Jaison1986]

No, as Warden's shoulder this adversity in service to others. And Golems are not living creatures; they are constructs.

 

Most of they don't. They are tricked into thinking they will be heroes, then they take the joining and a good number of them regreat every step of the way. They are forced to shoulder this adversity in service to others. Golems are living creatures, otherwise golems like Shale and Caridin wouldn't be able to think and make their own decisions. So while deprived of free will they are still very much alive.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 lol @ the "slavery"- and "free-will"-nonsense.

 

Wardens, golems, both are essentially types of soldiers. Soldiers are not free men. They surrender their civilian freedoms when they enlist and serve their superiors unquestioningly. So if someone goes under the hammer to become a golem or joins the Wardens voluntarily, there's really nothing immoral about the control-rod or Taint restricting their freedom, since they are not meant to have freedom in the first place.

 

Only when people are forced onto the 'Anvil or into the 'Wardens that this practice becomes immoral, but then it's a question of necessity. It is generally accepted that Wardens are needed in a Blight. But in the Deep Roads, the Blight is every day.

[sylvanaerie]

Wardens are necessary to slay an Archdemon, Golems are not.  Just saying.

 

And yes, I do argue there is a difference between the two.  Shale wasn't able to express herself or resist Wilhelm's control especially since his purpose was simply 'giant walking toy I can use to impress people'.  She wasn't even allowed to go fight the darkspawn (if that was her preference) because she wasn't in control of her actions.  Wardens aren't being controlled by some outside force.  They have the choice to refuse the Joining (though that ends disastrously as Jory learned).  As Morrigan says, you always have a choice, the choice may suck but you still have a choice.  Golems don't get that, especially a golem forced into it.

 

In one of your dialogues with her, you even have an option to tell her she seems more animated than other golems, so it may be they ARE mindless, and something Wilhelm did to her allowed her to regain her mind.

 

And Hyr 2.0 soldiers are still people with real feelings and viewpoints.  They don't become mindless tools controlled by their superiors.  They can think and act according to the way their conscience dictates.  Of course, not saying there aren't consequences (court martial, execution etc) for doing so but they are still capable of acting this way.  They aren't controlled and forced to do whatever whim strikes the controller by some outside device.  To suggest that they are automatons with no free will just because they became soldiers is preposterous.  And I don't find anything LOL'able about slavery or the lack of free will.  I find it a disgusting and offensive practice.

 

Congo, I don't agree with the warden practice of doing the strong arm tactic of recruitment (never said I did).  And i don't really see the need to have wardens between blights save for the sole purpose of 'always being ready' but *shrug* not much i can do to change that part of the game.  My only argument on warden vs golems is a warden is still living and can enjoy living while golems cannot.  They are stone, iron whatever, not flesh and blood and they are not in control of their lives.  Even Shale's interests seem to be limited to 'sqashing' things.  Not a really full life, if you ask me.  Yes, as a warden you are tainted and have nightmares and sometimes people don't even survive the Joining.  It should be a choice thing, and I know it isn't.  I RP those wardens forcibly conscripted have real issue with the way they were conscripted but learn eventually to accept it and move on from their issues, because they are alive and they have to take what pleasure they can out of life before it's over. Such is character growth and why I have connected far better to my wardens than to any of my Hawkes. 

 

Shale certainly can't be said to have been living as a 'turned off automaton' in the deep roads or as furniture for Wilhelm or as statuary in the center of Honnleath.  She is only freed and truly begins living again once the warden uses her broken rod to 'awaken' her.

[Karach_Blade]

Even my most pragmatic "good" wardens (yes, one can be a good person and a pragmatist) wound up destroying the Anvil. The risk of it being misused against political rivals, unwilling volunteers, and those deemed "undesirable" by whomever is in power was too great a risk for my taste. While it is an ingenious invention, that concern outweighs the usefulness of keeping it. I don't even factor Branka into that decision. 

[Elhanan]

Most of they don't. They are tricked into thinking they will be heroes, then they take the joining and a good number of them regreat every step of the way. They are forced to shoulder this adversity in service to others. Golems are living creatures, otherwise golems like Shale and Caridin wouldn't be able to think and make their own decisions. So while deprived of free will they are still very much alive.

Most? At best there is Ser Jory, and he can be informed beforehand of the possible lethal nature of the Joining; simply wants to get it done, and no more tests. Daveth was saved from imprisonment or worse, and Alistair seems quite pleased at his service.

Golems are constructs with the minds of living beings magically implanted after being sacrificed; not living creatures.

[Jaison1986]

Most? At best there is Ser Jory, and he can be informed beforehand of the possible lethal nature of the Joining; simply wants to get it done, and no more tests. Daveth was saved from imprisonment or worse, and Alistair seems quite pleased at his service.

Golems are constructs with the minds of living beings magically implanted after being sacrificed; not living creatures.

 

Ser Jory, possibly our own warden, Duncan, Bethany. Anders, even Carver isn't very found of it. Riordan said himself if everyone knew of the true price they paid to be wardens, there would be almost none of them. Nobody would want to join if they knew the whole package. And note that at the same time Jory was informed the joining could kill him, Duncan said there was "no going back". Even if he refuse it right there at the bonfire, Duncan would have forced him to continue.

 

My point of the golems still stands. The fact they have an soul make them living beings, even if their bodies are different.