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Gamlen and Leandra


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#1
King Dragonlord

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Anybody feel like Gamlen was too much of a snake? 

 

Felt like the writers wanted to make sure you didn't like him. Like he had specific lines of dialog that felt like the writers were saying "No no no, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to hate Gamlen for some reason.  No matter what kind of Hawke you're playing." 

 

I think what cinched it for me was when Gamlen and Leandra were arguing about Gamlen having the nerve to ask her to pay some rent. 

 

Her response is "You sold my children into slavery" or something like that.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but that deal was about paying back the coin that got them into the city. I don't remember hearing anything about that including a rent check to Gamlen. 

 

Which ok fine but not only do they stop him from charging Leandra rent, but get on his case about the deed.

 

Which leads into the really big head scratcher. Gamlen is apparently such a terrible horrible meanie that even though he was the one to stay behind and take care of the family while Leandra ran off, the will still said give Leandra the money because she's so responsible . . . which she proved by running off with some boy she was in love with. 

 

And how did they think that was going to work anyway? They sent Leandra no notice. She didn't come back. Was Gamlen supposed to just sit on that pile of money forever? 

 

But you're not supposed to like him. Its like when you try to be sympathetic he practically threatens to strangle a puppy to make sure he's in the despised category. 

 

Am I exagerating? Yes. But it is quite a mess. 


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#2
KC_Prototype

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I liked him, but it was strained from all his wrong doings. And yeah, he should of kept that money safe along with the house but I can understand him feeling unloved. 



#3
KaiserShep

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I actually liked the progression of Gamlen's relationship with Hawke, from the sleazy uncle in Act 1, to the grieving loved one in Act 2, and then finally getting to meet his daughter in Act 3, at which point he will actually warm up to Hawke.

 

Problem is, however, that some of his passive dialogue if you click on him can be pretty nasty, especially if you're in a relationship with one of the companions. It's even creepier if you're a female Hawke in a relationship with Isabela, because after calling her a "pirate sl*t", he'll then ponder on the idea of two women, despite one of them being his niece. I always thought there should at least have been a quick auto-response of disapproval at these sorts of remarks, if not simply having it in real dialogue where you can say something nasty back.


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#4
King Dragonlord

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I actually liked the progression of Gamlen's relationship with Hawke, from the sleazy uncle in Act 1, to the grieving loved one in Act 2, and then finally getting to meet his daughter in Act 3, at which point he will actually warm up to Hawke.

 

Problem is, however, that some of his passive dialogue if you click on him can be pretty nasty, especially if you're in a relationship with one of the companions. It's even creepier if you're a female Hawke in a relationship with Isabela, because after calling her a "pirate sl*t", he'll then ponder on the idea of two women, despite one of them being his niece. I always thought there should at least have been a quick auto-response of disapproval at these sorts of remarks, if not simply having it in real dialogue where you can say something nasty back.

 

I remember Bethany commenting something about Gamlen rooting around in her laundry and her believing that it was "only" to try to find her coin purse. Sounds like they almost went sicko with him and then stopped themselves. 



#5
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I agree completely. I feel like the game tries too hard to make you hate Gamlen even when he makes some good points. Notice that the game lets you either rip into Gamlen, take Leandra's side, or play the general peace-keeper. You're never allowed to say, "Gamlen's got a point, Mom."

 

And I think Gamlen does make some solid points, even though I know he's a dishonest crook that took the inheritance meant for his sister. Leandra indeed ran away years ago and chose to forfeit her right to the fortune when she left. She didn't return for years on end, especially when her family needed her: not to help when their parents got sick, not when their parents died, not to help with the funeral, and never to help manage their affairs or run the estate after their passing. But then when SHE ran into trouble years later, she turns up with her hand outstretched just expecting gold to fall into it; just expecting everything to be as it was before she left.

 

Once she does turn up at the gates, she's not grateful for whatever help her brother can offer. She just expects him to use the Amell family name and fortune that she abandoned to help her the way she wants to be helped, then is appalled when he mentions indentured servitude. In fact, the game acts like you're supposed to be appalled by the suggestion, but I thought, "That's fair. We left Kirkwall years ago and only turned up when we needed it. Beggars can't be choosers. I'm grateful for whatever gets us into the city." Besides, I thought Gamlen made a good point when he said, "Think of it as a job waiting for you when you get into the city." With the huge influx of refugees, I figured there wouldn't exactly be job opportunities, so this would be a good way to build a reputation and gain connections for when things finally quiet down - which is exactly what happens by the start of Act 1.

 

Leandra then lives in his house rent-free for over a year and stil whines that: "My children should be among the nobility! Not in indentured servitude." Well, Leandra, you should have thought of that before you left the nobility and only came back when it could benefit you.

 

Then, after a year of squatting in his house, when Gamlen tentatively brings up the subject of rent, she says, "You sold my children into slavery! And now you want rent?" a) Not slavery, indentured servitude. A set amount of work for a set amount of time to get into the city. B) It was the only way to get into the city. I didn't see you come up with any alternatives. c) You and your family did just turn up out of the blue expecting help, and have been living in his home rent-free for over a year. It's his house. He doesn't technically have to help you. You can stand to show a little gratitude, or else move into your own place if you don't like it.

 

She struck me as being a tad entitled and ungrateful. And I thought Gamlen made some legitimate points.

 

Gamlen: "Aren't you the one always saying, 'Love is more important than money'?"

Leandra: "It is!"

 

And yet, every word out of her mouth from the moment she meets Gamlen is whine that he doesn't have as much money or influence as she expected, nag him for not treating her family to the luxurious lifestyle she felt they deserve, and to take shots at his lifestyle when she isn't doing chores or paying rent. She never rolls up her sleeve and takes care of things herself. She nags Gamlen to go to the Amell mansion to get the Will. When he says no, she just hunkers over and gives up, until Hawke retrieves it for. Apparently "love is more important than money" until Leandra wants money, and then the person should fork it over because it's what she wants.

 

Then, when it's finally revealed he took her inheritance (though the game expects us to already hate him long before we find out), I thought Gamlen again made a good point. "We all have our burdens to bear. Mine was taking care of the life you chose to abandon. I'm no longer looking for love... at least I got the money."

 

But the game always forces you to sneer or frown at Gamlen and take Leandra's side. Again, I don't like Gamlen, but I think he makes some good points, and I resent the game forcing you to hate him, mistrust him, and take Leandra's side when I sometimes think, "Gamlen has a point, Mom."


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#6
KaiserShep

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I remember Bethany commenting something about Gamlen rooting around in her laundry and her believing that it was "only" to try to find her coin purse. Sounds like they almost went sicko with him and then stopped themselves. 

 

LOL, what... They sure dialed creepy uncle to 11 that time.



#7
MACharlie1

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I'm surprised nobody mentioned that Gamlen also told Leandra to put some money towards food.

 

So not only are the Hawkes living RENT free but food free as well. Why the hell doesn't Leandra have a job herself anyway? 

 

Not that I'm saying Gamlen is all "poor me" works since we do see him waste money in the brothel but still. Leandra isn't exactly pulling any weight herself. It's not like she's nursing babies or anything. 


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#8
King Dragonlord

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I'm surprised nobody mentioned that Gamlen also told Leandra to put some money towards food.

 

So not only are the Hawkes living RENT free but food free as well. Why the hell doesn't Leandra have a job herself anyway? 

 

Not that I'm saying Gamlen is all "poor me" works since we do see him waste money in the brothel but still. Leandra isn't exactly pulling any weight herself. It's not like she's nursing babies or anything. 

Good catch. 

 

And I agree, Gamlen is not the most sympathetic figure. I'm am a little divided on the fact that he heads off to the brothel but asks her to pay rent. On the one hand, heck yes she should pay rent. On the other hand, if all it means is he can't drop in on the Blooming Rose anymore.

 

No, you know what, I can't fault a lonely aging bachelor for that either. Nobody else is portrayed as skeevy for going to the Blooming Rose. Why should it count against him?

 

Also, I wanted an option to move Gamlen in or at least give him a little money. For those of you who balk at it, look at it this way, he'd probably feel like a heel if you did.


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#9
X Equestris

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LOL, what... They sure dialed creepy uncle to 11 that time.


Supposedly, if a female Hawke is romancing Isabella, he'll press her for "details". I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

#10
congokong

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I never bought that "you sold my children into servitude" line. Gamlen's actions gave them a choice between not entering the city or entering with a heavy price. It was a crappy choice but it was still a choice. That's no reason to scold him but rather thank him, if only mildly. Now the scolding comes from not so much that he kept his family's fortune/estate for himself considering Leandra did abandon the family, but that he lost it all searching for a gem that isn't even worth a bloody sovereign! Seriously, Gamlen?! What the ****?!



#11
congokong

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But the game always forces you to sneer or frown at Gamlen and take Leandra's side. Again, I don't like Gamlen, but I think he makes some good points, and I resent the game forcing you to hate him, mistrust him, and take Leandra's side when I sometimes think, "Gamlen has a point, Mom."

I believe there are indeed diplomatic lines to defend Gamlen. I confess I've never clicked on them but there is "He has a point" or something after Gamlen says "How long was I supposed to wait?" Afterwards when he goes on about being foolish for losing the fortune the diplomatic option says "Everyone makes mistakes."

 

Now about Leandra, when she isn't terribly dull she seems to be stupid/puffed up. She can't expect her children to be nobility after running off with an apostate. She knew the cost of abandoning her family. And about the rent/food, normally I'd say they wouldn't owe Gamlen after he lost all of the Amell's assets; especially when he wasn't legally supposed to even have them, but Gamlen is in pretty bad shape financially. Having him pay for all their food as well as give room/board seems rather impossible considering how he's always at the Blooming Rose...

 

The game does nudge you towards not liking him, but also not hating him I think. He's not very affectionate for sure. Him staying with his family is probably why they gave everything to Leandra because their parents couldn't stand him. lol Their parents sound like douchebags though for not leaving Gamlen anything. Even if they didn't like him he did take care of them while Leandra ran off and they didn't even respond to her letters.


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#12
Dabrikishaw

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Well, you can agree with him on Leandra leaving after you return with the family will. You can also reunite him with Charade by convincing her of Gamlen's good side.


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#13
teh DRUMPf!!

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 Yeah, I thought the portrayal of Gamlen was pretty over-the-top. It made me roll my eyes and think to myself "I'm not a child, BioWare" more than once. Couldn't take him seriously with how much of a caricature he was.

 

Chalk it up to a classic case of BioWare Subtlety™.



#14
Shady Koala

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I surprised myself by how much I liked Gamlen. I wished there was an option to invite him to stay in the estate, especially after act 2.

 

On the other hand I just didn't like Leandra, after 25 years she just hopes to jump back to Kirkwall and what, resume her status as nobility? 

To be honest I would have done the same in Gamlen's shoes, though I wouldn't have blown the money on Qunari cheeses.

If it weren't for Gamlen's 'contacts' it's likely Hawke and co. would of been swallowed by the blight. So there's something to be thankful for.

 

I admit I did get the impression I was supposed to sympathize with Leandra and despise Gamlen, just through dialogue alone. 

 

Inevitably I was intrigued more by a man who was moulded by his parents neglect and how it made him a hard man but had a soft side that would peak occasionally such as his eventual meeting of Charade. 

 

This is why I like Gamlen;

 

'You know, I may not say this very often, but I'm glad you're one of the family, but seriously, next time? Stay out of my damned business.'


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#15
Nightdragon8

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you mean other than Gamlen's "contacts" being people who he is in debt to.

 

I don't see whats to complain about, I mean alot of other authors of storys do the same thing. Harry Potter, Snape, for instance.

 

So its a tool. to give a framework for a story.



#16
caradoc2000

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Supposedly, if a female Hawke is romancing Isabella, he'll press her for "details". I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

He does, he asks: "What is it like with two women, anyway?"



#17
Darkly Tranquil

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I surprised myself by how much I liked Gamlen. I wished there was an option to invite him to stay in the estate, especially after act 2.

 

On the other hand I just didn't like Leandra, after 25 years she just hopes to jump back to Kirkwall and what, resume her status as nobility? 

To be honest I would have done the same in Gamlen's shoes, though I wouldn't have blown the money on Qunari cheeses.

If it weren't for Gamlen's 'contacts' it's likely Hawke and co. would of been swallowed by the blight. So there's something to be thankful for.

 

I admit I did get the impression I was supposed to sympathize with Leandra and despise Gamlen, just through dialogue alone. 

 

Inevitably I was intrigued more by a man who was moulded by his parents neglect and how it made him a hard man but had a soft side that would peak occasionally such as his eventual meeting of Charade. 

 

 

I agree. I thought Gamlen was actually a more sympathetic character than Leandra, who came across as selfish, flighty, and immature/irresponsible. Gamlen had plenty of faults, but he was at least realistic about the situation.


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#18
King Dragonlord

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you mean other than Gamlen's "contacts" being people who he is in debt to.

I don't see whats to complain about, I mean alot of other authors of storys do the same thing. Harry Potter, Snape, for instance.

So its a tool. to give a framework for a story.


I'll admit my only familiarity with Snape is through the movies and i mostly played them in the background while doing other things but when i was paying attention, Snape struck me as a very sympathetic character who was sensitive and wounded, possible suffering deep depression from those childhood events. He couldn't bring himself to like Potter because of his dad, but on some level he knew that it was his issues and that he was not going to let it stop him from properly serving as Potter's teacher and sometime protector. He knew Potter didn't deserve to be caught up in this mess,

Snape is actually quite noble. Furthermore, all the teachers are cartoonish eccentrics, so his affect fits better. For a Bioware story, Gamlen is out of place. Any character you spend this much time with who isn't actually a villain normally gets rounded out better than this with more redeeming qualities (well, acknowledged redeeming qualities.)

#19
congokong

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Supposedly, if a female Hawke is romancing Isabella, he'll press her for "details". I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Gamlen (verbatim): So, I hear you've been slipping it to that pirate **** from the Hanged Man. What's that like, two women? I've always wondered."

 

He says this even if Isabela is right there although she doesn't comment.

 

Well, you can agree wit him on Leandra leaving after you return with the family will. You can also reunite him with Charade by convicing her of Galmen's good side.

I've never told Charade to meet Gamlen; largely because I wanted to ring her neck for being such a ******. Seriously, she dangles something that cost him everything to try to make him run around Kirkwall instead of just knocking on his door. She dismisses that suggestion but that's what normal people do. Someone that manipulative is probably a headache Gamlen doesn't need.



#20
TheMadHarridan

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I have never hated Gamlen, despite the game trying to force it. I actually kind of like him and feel some measure of pity for him. I mean, the guy's parents didn't appear to care about him, even though he took care of them while Leandra ran off with Malcolm. His parents completely disregarded him by giving all of the money to Leandra, who then returns years later with her two kids and a bad attitude and expects to live with Gamlen without contributing to the household finances for as long as she wants. And then she has the nerve to accuse him of selling her children into slavery? As others have said, I was actually fine with Hawke and Bethany/Carver having to work off the debt Athenril/Meeran paid to get them into the city. It seemed believable and a much better alternative than being sent away from Kirkwall.

 

It's true that Gamlen shouldn't have "stolen" all of the estate's money, but it's understandable why he did. Leandra was gone, and Gamlen didn't expect her to ever return. You can't expect the guy to sit on that money forever. As for the Blooming Rose, he is clearly lonely, so if that's where he wants to spend his time, so be it. I doubt he's paying for "premium service" anyway. He's probably so desperate for favorable attention that he's paying the 50 silver so someone will "pretend to like him" for an hour.

 

And he does prove that he's not a complete a** by his devastated reaction to Leandra's death (which shows he really loved her despite everything), and his favorable reaction to Charade (I always tell her to meet him, as Gamlen's reaction is really quite sweet). I wish there was an option to move him into the estate. After all, depending on your character's romance choice, Hawke may already have an abomination or a blood mage living with him/her. What's a bit more crazy?


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#21
Beerfish

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A pretty well constructed character by BioWare, a boat load of flaws but as you peel back the layers you can see reasons for his poor behaviour.  I would have liked to play a game of Wallop with ole Gamlen.  He has a pretty cool daughter as well that many have hoped to see in the up coming game.



#22
MACharlie1

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Still nobody has answered why the hell Leandra isn't working and making SOME money herself. 



#23
King Dragonlord

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Still nobody has answered why the hell Leandra isn't working and making SOME money herself. 

 

My guess is the argument we see isn't the first one they've had about this. She probably keeps berating him for losing the fortune and "selling her children into slavery" (Maker's Breath what it must be like to live with her) and he probably keeps taking the abuse and shouldering the load out of guilt and a sense of obligation. He did nurse his parents in spite of them apparently not liking him. 

 

He's turning more and more tragic to me the more I think about it.


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#24
King Dragonlord

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I shouldn't leave it at that. 

 

I should clarify that some of the actions we're criticizing Leandra for, while not right or rational are understandable. In my mind, she gets a pass for her reactions early in the game. Husband dead, kid dead, Loethering and all her friends destroyed, frightful encounters with Darkspawn and Dragons and her being apparently completely dependent on her remaining children to protect her. Then she gets to Kirkwall only to learn her brother blew it all. I can see her being upset at having lost yet another thing she thought she could count on.

 

Its just that after a year, she should have been calmed down enough to be able to show some gratitude.

 

I guess the other thing to consider is how would she earn rent in Kirkwall? At that point in the story her family is broke so she has no capital to start a business, she's an aging woman, no fighting skills, doesn't look to be built for labor, certainly isn't safe to be out at night. And Kirkwall has a glut of refugees.  By the time her kids start pulling in some serious money, they're scraping it together for an expedition and shortly thereafter they're able to buy back the Amell estate. 

 

Probably her best bet would have been to try to work a vending station in Hightown. Her knowledge of nobility (and possibly the sympathy of her old friends) might net a vendor some sales. She might even learn to help craft the wares while she was there. Her name might give her an edge landing a job like that.

 

EDIT: Actually, why doesn't she clean the house? We find an obvious chunk of food sitting on a barrell, Hawke comments that its probably the same food that was on that barrel a year ago. There are four people there. The children are working off their indentured servitude. Gamlen is doing whatever he does to pay all the family's bills. Why isn't Leandra cleaning up? Is she really just standing around all day long? 


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#25
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Gamlen can sod off!