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Gamlen and Leandra


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#26
Sifr

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Leandra indeed ran away years ago and chose to forfeit her right to the fortune when she left. She didn't return for years on end, especially when her family needed her: not to help when their parents got sick, not when their parents died, not to help with the funeral, and never to help manage their affairs or run the estate after their passing. But then when SHE ran into trouble years later, she turns up with her hand outstretched just expecting gold to fall into it; just expecting everything to be as it was before she left.

 

Except that she simply eloping does not mean one forfeited the right to her inheritance, if that's what the parent's will dictates. Given that they died at the same time the twins were born, that means they had seven years to change the will and they never did. They wanted Leandra to have the money, as well as control Gamlen's share because they knew that he'd blow it all. (Which he did. And her share too).

 

As for not showing up when they were sick, again, their funeral happened when Bethany and Carver were just a week old. Leandra was pregnant during the entire time that they were sick with cholera, so what was she expected to do? Go on a long trip to Kirkwall, whilst heavily pregnant, which would endanger her and her unborn children?

 

Once she does turn up at the gates, she's not grateful for whatever help her brother can offer. She just expects him to use the Amell family name and fortune that she abandoned to help her the way she wants to be helped, then is appalled when he mentions indentured servitude. In fact, the game acts like you're supposed to be appalled by the suggestion, but I thought, "That's fair. We left Kirkwall years ago and only turned up when we needed it. Beggars can't be choosers. I'm grateful for whatever gets us into the city." Besides, I thought Gamlen made a good point when he said, "Think of it as a job waiting for you when you get into the city." With the huge influx of refugees, I figured there wouldn't exactly be job opportunities, so this would be a good way to build a reputation and gain connections for when things finally quiet down - which is exactly what happens by the start of Act 1.

 

Leandra then lives in his house rent-free for over a year and stil whines that: "My children should be among the nobility! Not in indentured servitude." Well, Leandra, you should have thought of that before you left the nobility and only came back when it could benefit you.

 

Then, after a year of squatting in his house, when Gamlen tentatively brings up the subject of rent, she says, "You sold my children into slavery! And now you want rent?" a) Not slavery, indentured servitude. A set amount of work for a set amount of time to get into the city. B) It was the only way to get into the city. I didn't see you come up with any alternatives. c) You and your family did just turn up out of the blue expecting help, and have been living in his home rent-free for over a year. It's his house. He doesn't technically have to help you. You can stand to show a little gratitude, or else move into your own place if you don't like it.

 

While they did agree to the terms to get themselves into the city, as it currently stands in our world, the Declaration of Human Rights does define indentured servitude as a form of slavery. They were forced to sell themselves to get into the city and were not paid during the duration of that year, but rather their wages were taken to pay off their debt. In other words, they were essentially slaves during that time.

 

We know that Gamlen's debt collectors frequently call upon the house and his rent is nearly always late, so how were Leandra or any of her children supposed to pay him rent? While it's true that Leandra could (and probably should) have gotten a job, we're told that it's next to impossible for Fereldans to get employment in the city, let alone one that doesn't pay next to nothing. Most other places seem to have a "No Fereldans" hiring policy on principle.

 

Gamlen does make some relatively good points about Leandra's sense of entitlement and being spoiled growing up, and occasionally does come off as a tragic figure that's been in a rut for so long that he's become resentful of practically everyone (and Hawke's success probably doesn't help either, as it reminds him of his own failings), but I don't think the game tries to force us to automatically hate Gamlen.

 

Hawke is constantly tired of all of Carvers griping, but s/he doesn't hate him, just wants him to grow up and get over himself. I suspect that Hawke feels the same way about Gamlen, since we can see Hawke try to extend the occasional olive branches to him and on those rare occasions when Gamlen's actually being nice to his neice/nephew, they seem to get on reasonably well.

 

As for Gamlen's feelings on Hawke... well, we often hear that Hawke greatly takes after Malcolm, someone who Gamlen constantly dismisses for most of the game, which I think is a major part of his friction with Hawke. As much as he tries to hide it, Gamlen completely adores his sister and probably felt utterly betrayed when she ran away from the family to be with Malcolm, leaving him alone with parents who (he believed) didn't think much of him.

 

Since Malcolm died several years prior, he takes this decades-long resentment out on Hawke instead.


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#27
calvinien

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I'd like to remind people that the money that Leandra was so concerned about....was HERS. It wasn't like gamlen blew his own inheritance. He stole hers and never told her that her parents forgave her. And then spent an amount of money that allows Hawke to essentially do nothing professionally for YEARS on end while living with multiple servants all on bad investments, gambling and whores.

 

She sounds entitled because she was literally entitled to that money and the house and all that came with it.


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#28
congokong

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She sounds entitled because she was literally entitled to that money and the house and all that came with it.

Except she sounded entitled before learning of the will.



#29
King Dragonlord

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Except that she simply eloping does not mean one forfeited the right to her inheritance, if that's what the parent's will dictates. Given that they died at the same time the twins were born, that means they had seven years to change the will and they never did. They wanted Leandra to have the money, as well as control Gamlen's share because they knew that he'd blow it all. (Which he did. And her share too).

 

As for not showing up when they were sick, again, their funeral happened when Bethany and Carver were just a week old. Leandra was pregnant during the entire time that they were sick with cholera, so what was she expected to do? Go on a long trip to Kirkwall, whilst heavily pregnant, which would endanger her and her unborn children?

 

 

 

 

While they did agree to the terms to get themselves into the city, as it currently stands in our world, the Declaration of Human Rights does define indentured servitude as a form of slavery. They were forced to sell themselves to get into the city and were not paid during the duration of that year, but rather their wages were taken to pay off their debt. In other words, they were essentially slaves during that time.

 

We know that Gamlen's debt collectors frequently call upon the house and his rent is nearly always late, so how were Leandra or any of her children supposed to pay him rent? While it's true that Leandra could (and probably should) have gotten a job, we're told that it's next to impossible for Fereldans to get employment in the city, let alone one that doesn't pay next to nothing. Most other places seem to have a "No Fereldans" hiring policy on principle.

 

Gamlen does make some relatively good points about Leandra's sense of entitlement and being spoiled growing up, and occasionally does come off as a tragic figure that's been in a rut for so long that he's become resentful of practically everyone (and Hawke's success probably doesn't help either, as it reminds him of his own failings), but I don't think the game tries to force us to automatically hate Gamlen.

 

Hawke is constantly tired of all of Carvers griping, but s/he doesn't hate him, just wants him to grow up and get over himself. I suspect that Hawke feels the same way about Gamlen, since we can see Hawke try to extend the occasional olive branches to him and on those rare occasions when Gamlen's actually being nice to his neice/nephew, they seem to get on reasonably well.

 

As for Gamlen's feelings on Hawke... well, we often hear that Hawke greatly takes after Malcolm, someone who Gamlen constantly dismisses for most of the game, which I think is a major part of his friction with Hawke. As much as he tries to hide it, Gamlen completely adores his sister and probably felt utterly betrayed when she ran away from the family to be with Malcolm, leaving him alone with parents who (he believed) didn't think much of him.

 

Since Malcolm died several years prior, he takes this decades-long resentment out on Hawke instead.

 

This is reasonable. I don't want to say it isn't.

 

But for the first part, Leandra doesn't know the will still favors her and that's important when considering her attitude. When she ran off with an apostate to a foreign country against her parent's wishes, she forsook her noble life to become an outlaw (I wouldn't go so far as to call her a criminal). From that point on, she had no right or reason to assume that she'd ever get so much as a copper of her family's money or be able to transact on the Amell name ever again. 

 

When it all went to hell, it was certainly reasonable of her to want to flee back to Kirkwall. For all she knew, the money and the estate were still there and she could throw herself on her brother's mercy. Anything to save her family in a crisis. But when he doesn't turn out to have the goods she starts to get indignant, and then stays that way for a full year. 

 

As for the money being left to Leandra, in these circumstances, that feels very much like an a**pull by the writers to put her in the morally superior position because, again, you're supposed to hate Gamlen. By the time they died, Leandra had been gone for seven years and they apparently made no effort to notify her that she was still the main beneficiary. That they were this irresponsible stretches disbelief. Its akin to stories we've heard in real life of people leaving their fortune to their cat. And pregnant or not, Gamlen was the one there taking care of things. Besides, if she's been a fugitive and an expatriate for so long, the will defaults to the other beneficiaries eventually.  



#30
King Dragonlord

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I'd like to remind people that the money that Leandra was so concerned about....was HERS. It wasn't like gamlen blew his own inheritance. He stole hers and never told her that her parents forgave her. And then spent an amount of money that allows Hawke to essentially do nothing professionally for YEARS on end while living with multiple servants all on bad investments, gambling and whores.

 

She sounds entitled because she was literally entitled to that money and the house and all that came with it.

Actually, as a fugitive from the law and an expatriate, she forfeits her claim. By default it goes to the other beneficiary. Or at the very least, Gamlen could have easily petitioned to have her claim revoked under these circumstances. 



#31
Riven326

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I think the Hawke family could have been a little more grateful towards Gamlen. He didn't have to take them in after all.



#32
Elite Midget

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I actually liked the progression of Gamlen's relationship with Hawke, from the sleazy uncle in Act 1, to the grieving loved one in Act 2, and then finally getting to meet his daughter in Act 3, at which point he will actually warm up to Hawke.

 

Problem is, however, that some of his passive dialogue if you click on him can be pretty nasty, especially if you're in a relationship with one of the companions. It's even creepier if you're a female Hawke in a relationship with Isabela, because after calling her a "pirate sl*t", he'll then ponder on the idea of two women, despite one of them being his niece. I always thought there should at least have been a quick auto-response of disapproval at these sorts of remarks, if not simply having it in real dialogue where you can say something nasty back.

I personally thought it was funny if you romance Anders since Gamlen points out that you're like your mother and says something pretty mean about Anders as Anders, like Malcolm, is an Apostate Mage.



#33
Kenshen

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Leandra is certainly a drama queen.  I was kind of surprised we were not given an option to have Gamlen move in with us by the end of act 2 but I didn't know we were suppose to hate the man.  He could be the only remaining family Hawke has depending on choices made.


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#34
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I always felt like Gamlen and his story was lacking.  He definitely fit the profile of an addict and I thought the game portrayed that well.  It just seems odd that there were never any opportunities for hawke and sibling to have connected with him at least once doing an activity with him over the span of 10 years versus just "oh hey, there you are" run ins in the house.



#35
Elite Midget

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Leandra is certainly a drama queen.  I was kind of surprised we were not given an option to have Gamlen move in with us by the end of act 2 but I didn't know we were suppose to hate the man.  He could be the only remaining family Hawke has depending on choices made.

I don't think he would want to move in as he  has his pride. Though he was in touch with the family as Leandra and Gamlen had weekly get together stuff so neither held a grudge and were bonding as siblings and it's because of this that Gamlen was the first to find out that Leandra was missing and he went out on his own to try and find his sister even when he had nothing to go on.

 

 

I always felt like Gamlen and his story was lacking.  He definitely fit the profile of an addict and I thought the game portrayed that well.  It just seems odd that there were never any opportunities for hawke and sibling to have connected with him at least once doing an activity with him over the span of 10 years versus just "oh hey, there you are" run ins in the house.

You can bond with Gamlen over Leandra's death, his daughter, and the Legacy DLC if you do it in Act 3 and don't bring your sibling.


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#36
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You can bond with Gamlen over Leandra's death, his daughter, and the Legacy DLC if you do it in Act 3 and don't bring your sibling.

 

 

I haven't done that yet.  I think that's pretty cool maybe I'll check that out



#37
Bellethiel

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Honestly I always felt sorry for him rather than hateful. He can be really mean, fair enough, but I do not blame him for getting bitter giving the circumstances. Leandra came back only because blight happened, so it was like "we didn't give a damn about you all these years, but now we really need your help. So don't turn us down, we're a family afterall!" kind of situation. 



#38
congokong

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I think the Hawke family could have been a little more grateful towards Gamlen. He didn't have to take them in after all.

A lack of gratitude towards Gamlen can be justified based on the fact that Hawke and their sibling are forced into "indentured servitude" (ME2 reference) for a year because Gamlen lost all of the money/assets that legally belonged to Leandra. Sure, he found them opportunities to get into Kirkwall and gave them a shack to live in, but that wouldn't have been necessary if he didn't lose everything chasing after a gem not even worth a single sovereign.


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#39
Ferretinabun

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Seeing him at the Blooming Rose was a particular slap in the face. I think we're supposed to judge him harshly for being there. Which is very odd because 1) many players hire prostitutes in the DA brothels anyway, and 2) pitying him or even being totally cool with it don't seem to have been considerations.



#40
SmilesJA

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I never outright hated Gamlen, though I did develop a dislike for him for selling Hawke into servitude. However as the game progressed, he developed nicely to the point when your entire family is either dead or on their own path, he becomes your emotional crutch. Gamlen's quest with Charade was one of the most heartwarming parts of the game and it shows how caring Gamlen can be.



#41
Kenshen

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I guess I view him differently.  He didn't have many options to get the Hawke's into the city to start with and what he did find actually works out well in hiding a apostate.  Someone correct me if I am wrong but even if you take all of the aggressive dialog with him you will still get his quest in Act 3 so that shows Hawke cares for him.  I really like how that plays out with FemHawke, the nosey niece.  He does have his faults but who doesn't. 



#42
congokong

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People keep talking about the dynamic with Gamlen's niece, but I could never bring myself to suggest they meet after that ****** tried jerking him around all over Kirkwall with that gem, letters, and mercenaries instead of just knocking on his door.



#43
Willowhugger

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I was really confused by the fact Gamlen was not living in our mansion but still in his hovel.

 

As much as I despised Gamlen as a person, he was part of Hawke's family and it was Gamlen's childhood home.

 

I felt bad the guy was living in poverty.as Hawke was now a noble.



#44
Bellethiel

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A lack of gratitude towards Gamlen can be justified based on the fact that Hawke and their sibling are forced into "indentured servitude" (ME2 reference) for a year because Gamlen lost all of the money/assets that legally belonged to Leandra. Sure, he found them opportunities to get into Kirkwall and gave them a shack to live in, but that wouldn't have been necessary if he didn't lose everything chasing after a gem not even worth a single sovereign.

Well yeah he lost the money, but again the fact that fortune belonged to Leandra was like a big slap in the face to Gamlen in the first place. He stayed with parents till the end and got nothing out of it while she was in Ferelden, did not intent to come back, and got everything anyway. I am not surprised he ended up with gambling problem. Cause yeah it's a problem and addiction. It's not like he wanted to end up in lowtown, right? I suppose by finding the gem he was trying to prove that he can do something right since his whole life he was simply staying in his sisters shadow. 

 

Also. Leandra says she missed parents funeral cause Carver and Bethany were just born. So that means Gamlen had 19 years to lose all that money.

 

 

And I get that family was upset over losing fortune. That's not a small deal, fair enough. But honestly they treat him kind of bad even before finding grandparents will, and act as if Gamlen's help was granted thing which they simply deserve. I understand that they're family but as I said earlier if not for the blight they would never show up there. So they remembered about family bonds only cause they were in need. I honestly do not know if I would be so eager to help someone who shows up after 25 years like nothing ever happened.

 

I was really confused by the fact Gamlen was not living in our mansion but still in his hovel.

 

As much as I despised Gamlen as a person, he was part of Hawke's family and it was Gamlen's childhood home.

 

I felt bad the guy was living in poverty.as Hawke was now a noble.

Well and all that after "pay for rent and food alone Gamlen, you forced us to work for a year so now you have to deal with it". So they were sitting on his head, living for his money (three adults and a dog, not a small thing if you ask me), and when they became rich (cause I suppose collecting expedition money was way easier without having to worry about living expenses) they just left him behind. 

 

I know that Gamlen acts like a harsh and mean guy. That he made lots of mistakes. But in the end he did help his family. He was even visiting Leandra after they left him behind in the Lowtown, so despite everything he cared for his family even if he really had nothing out of it. So I suppose a bit of gratitude from Hawke wouldn't be too much to ask.


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#45
Thermopylae

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The character Gamlen is meant to convey a sense of injustice of the situation, he is part of the mire that the Hawke character rises from. There are moments where he is humanised, but the narrative choices you have are limited. If there was some way to "rehabilitate" him in some way it would have been nice. The narrative arc with Hawkes mother is quite dark, actually. That must really flip some switches in people, at least sometimes.


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#46
Willowhugger

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The character Gamlen is meant to convey a sense of injustice of the situation, he is part of the mire that the Hawke character rises from. There are moments where he is humanised, but the narrative choices you have are limited. If there was some way to "rehabilitate" him in some way it would have been nice. The narrative arc with Hawkes mother is quite dark, actually. That must really flip some switches in people, at least sometimes.

Gamlen is a sleazy loser but I'd have still taken care of him is all I'm saying.



#47
congokong

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Well yeah he lost the money, but again the fact that fortune belonged to Leandra was like a big slap in the face to Gamlen in the first place. He stayed with parents till the end and got nothing out of it while she was in Ferelden, did not intent to come back, and got everything anyway. I am not surprised he ended up with gambling problem. Cause yeah it's a problem and addiction. It's not like he wanted to end up in lowtown, right? I suppose by finding the gem he was trying to prove that he can do something right since his whole life he was simply staying in his sisters shadow. 

 

Also. Leandra says she missed parents funeral cause Carver and Bethany were just born. So that means Gamlen had 19 years to lose all that money.

 

 

And I get that family was upset over losing fortune. That's not a small deal, fair enough. But honestly they treat him kind of bad even before finding grandparents will, and act as if Gamlen's help was granted thing which they simply deserve. I understand that they're family but as I said earlier if not for the blight they would never show up there. So they remembered about family bonds only cause they were in need. I honestly do not know if I would be so eager to help someone who shows up after 25 years like nothing ever happened.

Yes, Gamlen's parents were jerks. Yes, Gamlen is a gambling addict. Yes, Gamlen is a fool for losing the family fortune although your notion that he did it to prove himself is purely speculation. It's also speculation on the duration of him losing the money. So what's your point? They should be grateful to Gamlen for him helping them with a bad situation his actions caused? Also keep in mind his actions to get them into the city weren't entirely altruistic. Gamlen was able to waiver his debt with either Meeran or Athenril.

 

Leandra did run back home only when she had to. I don't think her leaving sanctions Gamlen to lose the estate; rightfully his or not.  Gamlen's incompetent, a liar, and not very affectionate. "Get out of my face. You're mother's bad enough I don't need you nagging me." I don't hate him but all things considered he doesn't deserve gratitude. The family can go easy on him though for making the best of a bad situation he helped engineer.



#48
Bellethiel

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Yes, Gamlen's parents were jerks. Yes, Gamlen is a gambling addict. Yes, Gamlen is a fool for losing the family fortune although your notion that he did it to prove himself is purely speculation. It's also speculation on the duration of him losing the money. So what's your point? They should be grateful to Gamlen for him helping them with a bad situation his actions caused? Also keep in mind his actions to get them into the city weren't entirely altruistic. Gamlen was able to waiver his debt with either Meeran or Athenril.

 

Leandra did run back home only when she had to. I don't think her leaving sanctions Gamlen to lose the estate; rightfully his or not.  Gamlen's incompetent, a liar, and not very affectionate. "Get out of my face. You're mother's bad enough I don't need you nagging me." I don't hate him but all things considered he doesn't deserve gratitude. The family can go easy on him though for making the best of a bad situation he helped engineer.

Well since I said "I suppose" before stating his reason for gem search I obviously didn't mean that as fact. But how is that time thing a speculation? Their parents died when siblings were just born, and at the moment of death Carver or Bethany were 18 years old. So that's how long Gamlen was in full control of family fortune. Honestly it does not even matter if he lost it all in first year or if that took all these years. It just shows how long Leandra didn't show any interest when it comes to her brothers fate. Pretty sure it could all end differently if she bothered to visit him at least once during these years.

 

Didn't remember that debt part. Always had impression they had to work a year to cover price of bribes necessary to get them into the city - they had to cover for Leandra and Aveline as well. But even if it actually helped Gamlen it was as well kind of good deal for Hawke. Meeran or Athenril were able to guarantee safety for mage Hawke or Bethany - we all know what happens to Bethany if she stays in Kirkwall soon after cutting ties with Meeran/Athenril. It also helped in building some kind of position and acuairing connections, so not sure why treat it as if Gamlen only used them. I never said he was totally innocent or anything though. All I am saying it's unfair to blame him for everything, since he had to deal with some really harsh circumstances. And surerly Leandra's escape was one of the factors which led to his downfall. He simply failed to deal with all the bad things which happened to him, and no wonder that since he had no support whatsoever. That's why I do not agree with saying that bad situation happened ONLY cause of Gamlens actions. Leandra had her part in that too.

 

He could refuse to help them in the very beginning. That was the perfect way of hiding all inheritance mess as well - just sending them away. And to be honest after 25 years of being forgotten he could hold the grudge, and just do that. But he didn't. He took them in. That's why I think simple thank you would be on place. Especially from Leandra.


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#49
Kenshen

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Is it actually said in game that he lost everything gambling?  I thought he also made some very questionable to bad calls on investments and such.  I always got the feeling he was scammed rather than just being completely stupid with money.



#50
congokong

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Is it actually said in game that he lost everything gambling?  I thought he also made some very questionable to bad calls on investments and such.  I always got the feeling he was scammed rather than just being completely stupid with money.

He said he lost it all looking for the Gem of Karishok. "All" may not be literal but it's a lot.

 

Well since I said "I suppose" before stating his reason for gem search I obviously didn't mean that as fact. But how is that time thing a speculation? Their parents died when siblings were just born, and at the moment of death Carver or Bethany were 18 years old. So that's how long Gamlen was in full control of family fortune. Honestly it does not even matter if he lost it all in first year or if that took all these years. It just shows how long Leandra didn't show any interest when it comes to her brothers fate. Pretty sure it could all end differently if she bothered to visit him at least once during these years.

 

Didn't remember that debt part. Always had impression they had to work a year to cover price of bribes necessary to get them into the city - they had to cover for Leandra and Aveline as well. But even if it actually helped Gamlen it was as well kind of good deal for Hawke. Meeran or Athenril were able to guarantee safety for mage Hawke or Bethany - we all know what happens to Bethany if she stays in Kirkwall soon after cutting ties with Meeran/Athenril. It also helped in building some kind of position and acuairing connections, so not sure why treat it as if Gamlen only used them. I never said he was totally innocent or anything though. All I am saying it's unfair to blame him for everything, since he had to deal with some really harsh circumstances. And surerly Leandra's escape was one of the factors which led to his downfall. He simply failed to deal with all the bad things which happened to him, and no wonder that since he had no support whatsoever. That's why I do not agree with saying that bad situation happened ONLY cause of Gamlens actions. Leandra had her part in that too.

 

He could refuse to help them in the very beginning. That was the perfect way of hiding all inheritance mess as well - just sending them away. And to be honest after 25 years of being forgotten he could hold the grudge, and just do that. But he didn't. He took them in. That's why I think simple thank you would be on place. Especially from Leandra.

I just can't picture Leandra saying "thank you" to Gamlen for losing what was legally her inheritance, thus forcing her children into servitude to get them into Kirkwall; then being allowed to live in his shack. From one perspective it wasn't so bad Leandra left because that left everything to Gamlen; legally or not. Is it wrong that she left because she loved someone who wasn't socially acceptable? She would have been content to stay away forever and let Gamlen have the estate to himself before he lost it but the blight forced her back. Does that make her a bad person? Gamlen was like the caretaker of a mansion who accidentally burns it down, and then lets its owner live in his shack. Should he be shown gratitude? The situation would be different if the estate was legally his. He's still responsible for the Amell's assets but he'd be less so than when it's not legally even his.