275 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I happened to mistakenly click a link into the NWN2 forums instead of the NWN2 forums a few minutes ago and came across this gem of a thread started in August 2013 but just updated today titled "Why haven't anyone done a game like NWN since?".

 

The OP opines that NWN had these critical features:

1: A general purpose roleplaying system integrated in their game mechanics.

2: Toolset and modability support.

3: Multiplayer freedom to DM and host the kind of server for the kind of game you want.

 

 

Now it seems to me that NWN2 also has these features. And initially I thought they were going to lump NWN and NWN2 together and talk about why there are no games since NWN2 that have the above features.  But no, instead a later post (not the by OP though) says:

I don't want to start an NWN1 vs NWN2 war here but I still think that NWN2 really did more harm than good (out of a multiplayer perspective). It only seemed to lure some wary NWN1 players into trying thoose multiplayer servers only to then drop interest in the NWN series as whole. Sure, thoose players might have been lost anyway...but there was a drop there for no good reason I think.

 

So what I am saying is NWN2 didn't turn out good. It was not the NWN2 that I wanted and had hoped for.

 

 

The thread continues for some time and it is clear that those participating see NWN as an example of all that is wonderful and that NWN2 was somehow a complete bastardization of that.  Now while I certainly think that there were questionable decisions made in the implementation of the NWN2 OC, the thread posters are very critical about the NWN OC and do not equate NWN to it - instead they consider the toolset and the community modules to be the real NWN.  So considering that the NWN2 toolset is far more capable than that of NWN, you can create far better looking terrains, there are more options that look more professional, all done while still maintaining similarities in conversation structure, scripting, functions, and events, and NWN2 did not lose the multi-player server hosting capabilities of NWN I just don't see what it is that still keeping NWN modders bad-talking NWN2 after all these years.

 

I can understand if a NWN modder spent hundreds of hours developing a NWN module and then when NWN2 came out became irritated that the NWN2 engine couldn't automatically play his module. But I don't think anyone ever promised backwards compatibility.  I was justifiably irritated that a Mac version of the toolset was never released, because they never said that it would be Windows only.  But no one promised that NWN2 would play NWN content. And any good modder should have been excited about the more advanced possibilities with a more advanced toolset, not griping and whining for 10+ years.

 

I can also understand if people invested in establishing NWN PWs and saw the number of their players drop off after NWN2 was released. But they may be assuming that NWN2 siphoned off their players when in fact some probably just moved on.  And anyone can set up a NWN2 PW if they wanted to, so it is not like that wasn't a possibility or suddenly became more costly.

 

So, I just don't understand what the real issue is.   Is there something about NWN2 that is so very much worse than NWN that I am missing? Because I just don't see it.

 

Regards

[Tchos]

I observed the same in that thread, and chose to remain silent on the subject there, because the very fact that some there do not accept NWN2 indicates to me that they will find just as many shortcomings in any further offerings anyone attempts to make to fulfill their wishes, and reject that as well.  Aside from the obvious "They did -- they made NWN2, and you rejected it," I also thought to myself that the recent Divinity: Original Sin was another worthy offering to satisfy that gaming desire, but since it's even further away from NWN1 than NWN2 is, I can't imagine it would sway any of them that don't also already enjoy NWN2.

 

As far as I know, there are several reasons, both related and unrelated, for why they reject it, just as there are numerous different reasons that people play the game(s) in the first place.  Some are in it for the persistent worlds, for instance, but I am not.  To me, those are two entirely different kinds of games, and the same engine serves both needs.  So there will never be any clear answer to the question.

[Jezla]

There have been some PWs that successfully made the transition from NWN to NWN2.  The fact that the DM client for NWN2 is unsuable without the DMFI add-ons may have also contributed.  Another reason may be the steeper learning curve for the NWN2 toolset, or some people are confounded by the increased number of settings that can be adjusted.

 

I suspect however, that the simplest answer lies in human nature - some people are amble to embrace new things and abandon the old, others embrace the new while still appreciating what came before, and others steadfastly refuse to embrace the new at all.

[Arkalezth]

"I don't want to start a debate on X vs. Y, but Y is ****. My friend got bored of NWN1, so NWN2 is evil."

To put it simple: Fanboyism. Liking NWN better than NWN2 is one thing, and it's perfectly fine. Not acknowledging NWN2, even if you don't like it that much for whatever reason, is a different one.

The real question is: NWN2 aside, will ANY game be able to adapt to that guy's idea of "a game like NWN"? Probably not.

[kamal_]

I think there was a thread similar to this one on these forums not too long ago. Need to find it to see what I wrote, or need more coffee to remember.

/ coffee +3 vs memory checks

[rjshae]

I've recently gone back and played some of the old NWN modules after using NWN2 for a long time. It, well, felt awkward and unpolished. I guess if you are used to NWN then it's fine as your bread and butter, as every game seems to have its advocates. It's best not to worry too much about what other people like or dislike.

[-Semper-]

And any good modder should have been excited about the more advanced possibilities with a more advanced toolset, not griping and whining for 10+ years.

So, I just don't understand what the real issue is. Is there something about NWN2 that is so very much worse than NWN that I am missing? Because I just don't see it.

 

to sum it up: the thread is a collection of frustrated players. nwn brought editing/modding/editor usage to the masses. it was such an easy to use editor, especially because of the tile system, that almost everybody could create their own module literally within minutes to tell their story. also bioware used a very simple mesh and animation structure which was reverse engineered just a few months (perhaps even weeks) after release. the first exporters sprang to life and the custom community was able to create new meshes and animation with free(!!!) tools. also the whole engine was outdated at release so that one could play nwn with a rather weak system.

 

fast forward to nwn2 and you'll notice a totally different story. to play nwn2 you needed a good pc with costly hardware. the toolset is complicated and creating outdoor areas takes days or even weeks if you want something decent. the whole process of scultping terrain and painting/blending textures is geared towards artists, and drives the common user away. till today there's no way to create custom animations without 3dsmax6-8, which cost thousands of dollars and ain't even available anymore.

 

the majority of the nwn user base turned away from the sequel and grew bitter in their hearts. the whole experience has left a sour taste.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I'm not sure why an inability to create custom animations would be a significant issue. There are no custom animations that are required to tell a story. How many modders were really into animations?

While creating outdoor areas from scratch is daunting, all of the exteriors created for the OC were available from day 1 and can be edited. That doesn't take a significant amount of artistic talent.

[BartjeD]

I think its just overly dramatic to compare the games and then from that infer that there would have been a better world if....

 

I believe that adults are capable of examining their own likes and dislikes to see whether or not they are rational. Or whether they are based on preconceived ideas and ideals.

 

The initial release of NWN2 was messed up. But as it stands right now its a very good game. It still attracts a decent amount of new players from what I can tell. And people keep coming back to it. I don't know how the NWN1 community is doing, I wouldn't be surprised if some NWN1 players are also switching. That sort of seems inevitable. But you only very rarely hear of people going back to NWN1.

 

I suppose that may also cause explain why some people feel NWN2 needs to be treated with hostility: to avoid other players moving on to a newer and prettier game. (replace game with a person and we have a relationship analogy )

But that would be childish.

[Tchos]

Technical hurdles are often cited, yes.  I also see many things being said about NWN2 that may have been true at launch but which haven't been true for years.  Things that are outright lies about what NWN2 can or can't do, or claims that it brings no improvements at all over NWN1 aside from better graphics.

 

I think that emotions are at fault for keeping a subsection of the NWN1 community insular.  There was Atari's grand betrayal, ending support for NWN1 and the premium module program in order to promote NWN2.  I saw a lot of hatred and anger expressed over that in old, archived threads, as well as hate for Obsidian, who had nothing to do with those decisions.

 

The fear of a diminishing community is stronger now than ever, I think.  I see such sentiments expressed on this side sometimes, but never with such wall-building fervour, boycotting certain sites or games out of fear of fragmenting the community.  Hey!  I play and enjoy other games than NWN2!  A lot of them!

 

With the atmosphere as I perceive it, I think I would not feel so free to make such a statement if I were a NWN1 community member.

[-Semper-]

I'm not sure why an inability to create custom animations would be a significant issue. There are no custom animations that are required to tell a story. How many modders were really into animations?

 

custom animations lead to custom creatures - really different ones where other skeletons besides the available ones are needed. there's only so much you can do with a limited amount of creatures. imo that's still the biggest bottle neck of nwn2. there's tons of stuff available for nwn. also it doesn't take much to create custom assets for this game. the newer you engine gets the more of an artistic background and efficient pipeline you need.

[Shallina]

NWN2 wasn 't made by Bioware, many poeple thought only BIOWARE could make things right. They trashed NWN2, and jumped into DAO when it was released. But sadly almost no stand alone mods were made for DAO. Many tried, almost all stoped.

[Tchos]

But sadly almost no stand alone mods were made for DAO. Many tried, almost all stoped.

 

Speaking as one of those few who first completed a standalone module for DA:O, and afterward one for NWN2, I can say that after having discovered NWN2 (after having initially dismissed it on the assumption that it was a non-party-based system like NWN1), I will not be returning to DA:O modding.

[Shallina]

Also many poeple couldn 't accept that the lvl cap in NWN2 was lower than in NWN. Sound pretty stupid, but they all wanted to be able to reproduce their lvl 40 build.

[Carcerian]

Because basically they are two totally different game engines, that share SOME asset formats, so lots of converting is required... (Both Ways)

[GCoyote]

Mostly psychology.  We had a similar discussion not long ago on another forum except that the OP covered the release of DnD e5.  That lead to the inevitable 'which was the best version' debate and eventual agreement to disagree.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Well I guess it would be nice to be able to easily create additional creatures. And I recall people complaining about rideable mounts as well, although that again seems like a minor thing to me.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[Tchos]

I absolutely hated the ridable mounts in NWN1's Wyvern Crown of Cormyr.  I expressed my frustration with their implementation and control in my review of the module on my blog.  They were worse than the ridable mounts in Oblivion, and that's saying something.

[BartjeD]

I also felt like that Tchos, I do not feel horse riding is a positive thing in NWN1. Neither NWN1 or NWN2 was made for it and it appears really difficult to pull it off in a way that 'fits'. It feels like a gimmick that hasn't quite gone all the way to being ready for every day use.

 

Kaldor is right I think that innovative new creatures are the area that NWN2 is weakest in. The animations are hurdle like the topic with the whip in the custom content section kind of shows (even if its completely different, its shows the hurdle I mean).

 

I am very happy with every new creature I see on the NWNvault. I still hope we might see Quaggoths, Owl Bears, and those digging critters from BG 1 which Shalina kept asking Hellfire_RWS about. And anything else developers feel like making. 

 

But to be fair the creature selection has expanded, and through scaling and texturing you can make a very large variety of creatures, very easily. And those are things you can do directly in the toolset, unlike in NWN1. That game had no scaling and texturing / visual effect option, from my recollection. 

[Arkalezth]

There are ridable horses in NWN2. I don't know if mounted combat is possible, though.

Either way, big deal. Baldur's Gate didn't have horses either.

[kamal_]

There are ridable horses in NWN2. I don't know if mounted combat is possible, though.

Either way, big deal. Baldur's Gate didn't have horses either.

Mounted combat is possible. There are no mounted combat animations, but you can engage in it. How it's handled is up to the implementer. The version I saw damaged the mount first, and enough damage would cause the victim to be dismounted (same at the goblin worg riders).

[Arkalezth]

Most of my experience with it is on a server I play on which has horses and was supposed to have mounted combat, but the latter doesn't work properly for some reason. I don't know why, or if it's a server-specific problem.

[Berliad]

I think folks in this thread have pretty much nailed the most substantial issue (aside from the emotional ones): time and skill requirements. I think the exterior area innovations of nwn2 were both it's biggest triumph and biggest hurdle for modders. One can do amazing things with it. But it takes a lot longer than it did in nwn1 to create an area, and you need to really practice to get good at it. Specifics...I don't know, is a 10x time correct? You can spend a lot of time with lighting, placeables, etc in nwn1. But you can spend time on that AND spend enormous time sculpting terrain in nwn2. I think some modders just don't have the time (or want to put in the time) that it takes to make quality areas in nwn2. I probably fit in that category. If I was to ever make a real module for nwn2 (not just my character creator), I'd undoubtedly rely heavily on prefabbed areas from the vault...

I've been going back and forth between playing modules in both games over the past year. I like both games a lot. Nwn2 tends to have a grander feel, with epic party-based battles and breathtaking vistas. Nwn1 tends to be more intimate, with stories focusing on the player character and maybe a companion or two. I'm over-generalizing here, of course. But I think both games have their own feel and strengths, and bring out different things in module authors.

That said, the funny thing is that there are times when I don't remember whether a module was a nwn1 or nwn2 module, especially after a few years have gone by! In the end, they are still vehicles for storytelling and fun combat.

[rjshae]

Well I guess it would be nice to be able to easily create additional creatures. And I recall people complaining about rideable mounts as well, although that again seems like a minor thing to me.

 

It's not just creatures--there are various animated inanimate object that would be nice to add without requiring super-expensive software. Doors, for example.

[Tchos]

Specifics...I don't know, is a 10x time correct? You can spend a lot of time with lighting, placeables, etc in nwn1. But you can spend time on that AND spend enormous time sculpting terrain in nwn2. I think some modders just don't have the time (or want to put in the time) that it takes to make quality areas in nwn2. I probably fit in that category. If I was to ever make a real module for nwn2 (not just my character creator), I'd undoubtedly rely heavily on prefabbed areas from the vault...

Nwn2 tends to have a grander feel, with epic party-based battles and breathtaking vistas. Nwn1 tends to be more intimate, with stories focusing on the player character and maybe a companion or two. I'm over-generalizing here, of course.

 

I know you said you were over-generalising, but I had a hard time in the past actually finding NWN2 modules that weren't the sort of intimate, single-PC focused stories you describe here.  I think about half of the modules I've played, if not more, were story-focused modules with no companions.  I played them because they were Hall of Fame modules, and I didn't know what all was available at the time.  Creating companions is a learning step that not everyone takes, especially in the earlier modules, and of course there was no SoZ party creation option for the first two years of the game's modding life.

 

As for exteriors, I can tell you that I personally would find it more time consuming to build exteriors with tiles, not less.  I hate building with tiles in interiors, and exteriors would be far worse, and I would easily spend 10x as long trying to get something decent-looking out of such a tile-based system!  Especially since I like changes of elevation (both in interiors and exteriors).  I think NWN2's terrain system is much, much easier to use.

 

There are indeed plenty of good prefabs out there for people who don't want to build exteriors this way, but there's also the option of playing to one's strengths and not including exteriors at all if the story doesn't need them.  A module could start in a tavern, manor, castle, etc., and the door could lead directly to a world map or conversation that takes you directly to inside a dungeon.  Or perhaps it's a crypt underneath the castle itself.