275 réponses à ce sujet

[Gruftlord]

I love wl2, but from a graphical and modding pov it's behind nwn2. Ssao and cloth physics is about the only thing modern about that game. Character models are at nwn1 quality. Not sure how well it will be moddable in the future, but so far it looks more complicated than any of the aurora games. I doubt it. Offers anything anyone of us here is looking for.

 

And a lot of nwn players and modders are looking for a replacement, that also offers dm support. There are enough options for moddable single player games already.

[Tchos]

I strongly disagree that there are enough options for moddable single-player games.  "Enough" would mean that there's enough variety to satisfy all of the different tastes and preferences in terms of features, rules, looks, etc.  As you see here, there are many people who hate turn-based games, but to me, turn-based is a major selling point.

 

Sure, there are enough moddable lone-hero one-man-army action-RPGs like the Elder Scrolls series or the Witcher series, but not party-based games, and certainly not enough moddable tactical turn-based, party-based games.  Whether Wasteland 2 offers what I, personally, may be looking for remains to be seen.  Personally, I'm not a particular fan of after-the-end settings, so the gameplay is only thing that attracts me to the game, and it's doing that very well.  Many NWN1 modders call the NWN2 toolset "complicated" (it's not at all complicated to me), so if their toolset is that kind of complicated, I'll most likely appreciate it.

 

So far, my main critique of D:OS is that the movement speed is slow and there's no pause outside of combat (a concession to the multiplayer framework).

 

It occurs to me that maybe you thought I was suggesting those two games as replacements for NWN1 only.  I was not.  I was presenting them as games that players and modders of NWN1 or NWN2 may find attractive for modding, depending on which features they're looking for in a "replacement".

[-Semper-]

D:OS is a party-based, turn-based faux-isometric style RPG with a good conversation system and a pretty powerful-looking toolset.

 

don't even bother. the majority is a chore to mod because almost everything happens outside the editor with porcessed .xlsm files, similar to 2da files. you can't even equip a npc with items, you have to choose a set out of a list, which is predefined.  it's also difficult to script, write dialogues, create quests, or do other simple thinge because the whole toolset documentation is almost nonexistent. plus gr2 files are back. yeah, you heared right! d:os whole mesh and animation system is made with rad game tools lovely granny. only weeks after release the modding community's activity was down on a critical level.

[kamal_]

Mokahtgs also had plenty of bad things to say about the D:OS toolset, so I wouldnt bother.

[-Semper-]

Mokahtgs also had plenty of bad things to say about the D:OS toolset, so I wouldnt bother.

 

a thing to add: for environment artists it's very good. not that special, but well designed terrain scultping, robust texture painting and blending, programmable custom shaders, a nice wall placement tool, scaling, easy to use atmosphere editor, and vegetation painting. at least one thing larian got right.

 

if we're talking strictly about level design i would still ignore it in favor of ue4 and ce3

[Tchos]

That's disappointing to hear.  Where did Mokah talk about it?  I'd like to read her critique.

 

Also, what is UE4 or CE3?

[-Semper-]

unreal engine 4 and cryengine 3. especially unreal engine 4 is really nice regarding environment design and custom content. actually it's also very good for creating a game from scratch.

[rjshae]

There's also the Shadowrun: Returns toolset, which might be interesting to experiment with at some point. Hopefully they'll keep developing that series...

[Tchos]

Ah, well, Unreal Engine and CryEngine would certainly be attractive if I want to create a salable game with a licensed engine, but for now I just want to use a framework that has most of the assets, RPG rules, and gameplay elements ready to go, like in NWN2.  I believe it would require a team effort to create an RPG of the sort I like using those two engines.

 

Shadowrun Returns is certainly an option, too.  I hear the Dragonfall expansion is a great improvement over the original campaign.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I view nwn2 as the lesser of two evils. Much lesser, I spent zero time modding nwn because after playing bg series it looked awful. But both games combat is slow and clunky and bugs persist that are horrid.

So I'll take nwn 2 many times over, but I would be the first to hit a nwn 3 and I wouldn't be clinging to my old outdated product and arguing online as to why nwn 3 sucks even though I haven't tried it.

I'm just trying to view things from the nwn modder perspective by putting myself in a nwn 3 hypothetical and I Don't see a reason for clinging. I see a reason for excitement.

The more I hear of people knocking a product they haven't tried the more I tune out because there is no discussion to be had if you don't know what you are talking about.

[Eternal Phoenix]

So you spent 3 years modding NWN1 and were burned out before even picking up NWN2? It would not have taken a year for you to learn the NWN2 toolset. That you were burned out on modding is not reflective of some lack in the NWN2 toolset or incredible difficulty.

I never called the NWN2 toolset lacking or incredibly difficult to use. I simply said it was more complex (which I think is a different thing from something being difficult) and not what I was used to. As you said, I had got bored with modding after three years with NWN1 so there is that.
 

I suggest when you no longer feel burned out you give NWN2 an honest effort. Using freely available areas and standard scripts it does not take that long to produce something enjoyable and playable.

Regards

LOL I appreciate the suggestion but if I'm being honest, my mods were semi-decent 1 hour adventures now lost in time and not really worth recovering! I'll leave modding to you experts and besides, I don't think I have the patience anymore.
 

I don' t know how so much false assertion can be thrown to try to defend the "ancestor".
 
NWN has only one thing over NWN2, it 's that it 's all tile, and can allow quicker exterior area creation, not better area, just "quicker to make area" that I find super ugly. Making quality like NWN1 exterior area in NWN2 isn 't very time consumming, it 's actually super fast as well. 1 or 2 textures, something almost fully plane, and a few placeable...
 
Everything else is actually inferior.
 
So why poeple still go with NWN ?
 
1 : Beceause they invested "to much" in it to make the switch in their opinion, which can be true for older project like PW.
2 : they have a really really poor hardware and can 't run NWN2.
3 : a strong emotional tie with the first game or their work on it.
 
All the others reasons are completly irational, or fallacy.

You've made an argument fallacy and your argument also seems to be under the idea that people sticking with NWN1 do so because they're blinded by nostalgia.

 

The toolsets of both games are different and NWN1 offers more custom content and as -Semper- already argued, custom creation is also much better for the first game and from a gameplay perceptive, I think NWN is much better too. NWN2 certainly has the more advanced toolset and other benefits though but it doesn't make it automatically superior just because it appeals to your preference.

 

In the end, both games have their merits which you seem to be ignoring and if anyone is bias here, it's you especially when you make comments like "The main reason NWN2 was disliked is beceause it wasn 't made by Bioware." which isn't factual at all.

 

Edit:

 

Also 1+ on D:OS toolset.  I played around with it a while back and I agree that it wasn't really good, -Semper- pretty much covered why above. Still, I foresee anyone who does learn it to go on to create some interesting mods for that game but so far there's only been one campaign mod uploaded to the nexus so I think most modders aren't sticking with it.

[MagicalMaster]

None taken.  The graphics aren't my reason for modding and playing NWN2 versus NWN1 (for me, it's primarily the gameplay and systems such as the party system and party member choice in dialogues, as well as the ability to make the dialogue box and font bigger), and I've said several times myself that I don't consider the graphics to be "good" compared to modern games.  I quite agree that both games show their age.

 

Yeah, I consider the graphics basically irrelevant between the games.  I just don't see a reason to switch as a result.  I actually prefer not switching around constantly between characters, which is possibly one of the reasons I enjoyed the ME series over the DA series.

 

But from a builders point of view I would much rather create a whole area from my imagination and get a buzz out of roaming around it for the first time than slap down a load of "same old" tiles and add a few placeables to try and give variety or put them in a different position..

 

I tend to be a very combat/mechanics (and to a lesser degree story) focused player.  Yeah, pretty areas are nice, but I rarely notice them to be realistic.  I'd rather get the terrain done faster and focus on what I consider more important.

 

True, but irrelevant from my perspective. For me it's the combination of the graphics, fantasy character building, and party-based play that you can obtain in NWN2. The Dragon Age games were decent graphics-wise, but lacking in the type of character building and party-based play I wanted.

 

We've all got our personal preferences.

 

I think you missed my point.  There's a reason I'm still playing NWN rather than being obsessed with Dragon Age, it's because I care about the non-graphical stuff far more.  But given that, the upgraded graphics in NWN2 aren't enough of an upgrade for me to consider them noteworthy.

[MokahTGS]

That's disappointing to hear.  Where did Mokah talk about it?  I'd like to read her critique.

 

Also, what is UE4 or CE3?

 

I, like you Tchos, watch the modding scene pretty closely and was pretty interested in Div:OS when it was in development.  Unfortunately the editor is not really in a usable state for anyone other than the most hard core of modders.  As mentioned, building anything is a massive chore with even the simplest functionality being handled through scripting or outside file editing.  It is not, nor do I believe it will ever be, a GUI driven modding tool like NWN/NWN2.

 

Besides the fact that it is missing a ton of modding features, it is really difficult to use.  It was made by coders for coders.  It was never really intended for the masses to use or understand.  It was designed as a development tool for a development team, not a hobby modder.  Just watch any of the tutorial videos and you will see what I'm talking about.  There still is nothing as easy to use or as flexible as NWN2 for modding.

 

To add to the discussion, I built for NWN1 back in the day both making my own modules and building for larger development teams.  When NWN2 came out I was excited but very intimidated by the toolset.  I actually didn't do any serious fiddling with it for over a year after it was released.  I even posted several rants on the boards of my frustrations.  After pushing along I eventually found the NWN2 toolset to be superior to the NWN1 toolset for my needs as a modder.  I'm primarily a builder and designer and found that there were far more ways that I could express myself artistically with NWN2 over NWN1.

 

Debating the merits of each game is ultimately pointless since people, especially the NWN1/2 modding crowd, are an opinionated lot.  I often liken it to a crowd of Comic Book Guys trying to argue over which batman iteration is the best.  Worst. Argument. Ever.

[Dann-J]

 

Debating the merits of each game is ultimately pointless since people, especially the NWN1/2 modding crowd, are an opinionated lot.  I often liken it to a crowd of Comic Book Guys trying to argue over which batman iteration is the best.  Worst. Argument. Ever.

 

What argument? The answer... is... obvious.

 

[rjshae]

I think you missed my point.  There's a reason I'm still playing NWN rather than being obsessed with Dragon Age, it's because I care about the non-graphical stuff far more.  But given that, the upgraded graphics in NWN2 aren't enough of an upgrade for me to consider them noteworthy.

 

No I didn't. You missed mine--I was expressing my perspective as to why I preferred NWN2 over your arguments. I wasn't arguing that you should switch. You enjoy NWN for your reasons, and I enjoy NWN2 for mine.

[MagicalMaster]

No I didn't. You missed mine--I was expressing my perspective as to why I preferred NWN2 over your arguments. I wasn't arguing that you should switch. You enjoy NWN for your reasons, and I enjoy NWN2 for mine.

 

Er...

 

True, but irrelevant from my perspective. For me it's the combination of the graphics, fantasy character building, and party-based play that you can obtain in NWN2. The Dragon Age games were decent graphics-wise, but lacking in the type of character building and party-based play I wanted.

 

We've all got our personal preferences.

 

That makes it sound like you think I prefer DA over NWN/NWN2.

 

1, you say the DA graphics are irrelevant.

 

2, you point out what you prefer in NWN2 over DA.

 

3, you specifically say what DA is lacking.

 

Maybe that's not what you meant but that's how that comes across -- you advocating for NWN2 over DA.

[rjshae]

I think you're just trolling now.

[Tchos]

Div:OS:  Unfortunately the editor is not really in a usable state for anyone other than the most hard core of modders.  As mentioned, building anything is a massive chore with even the simplest functionality being handled through scripting or outside file editing.  It is not, nor do I believe it will ever be, a GUI driven modding tool like NWN/NWN2.

 

Besides the fact that it is missing a ton of modding features, it is really difficult to use.  It was made by coders for coders.  It was never really intended for the masses to use or understand.  It was designed as a development tool for a development team, not a hobby modder.  Just watch any of the tutorial videos and you will see what I'm talking about.  There still is nothing as easy to use or as flexible as NWN2 for modding.

 

Thanks for the explanation.  It's possible that the emphasis on coding wouldn't deter me too much, since I've become very comfortable with coding (and I often do use scripts to perform functions that could be done with drag & drop, because the scripting method makes it easier for me to change things later), but the rest of what you describe does sound like an obstacle, like missing a ton of modding features.  That would be the nail in the coffin, really, as it was for NWO.  I want the toolset I mod with to allow me to do nearly anything, like NWN2 does.  I'll look at those tutorial videos you mention.

[MagicalMaster]

I think you're just trolling now.

 

Seriously?

 

You claimed "I was expressing my perspective as to why I preferred NWN2 over your arguments" which, if I understand you correctly, means why you prefer NWN2 over NWN, right?  Because I was talking about how I preferred NWN over DA, so it wouldn't sense for "your arguments" to refer to DA.

 

But originally you said "The Dragon Age games were decent graphics-wise, but lacking in the type of character building and party-based play I wanted" which has nothing to do with NWN vs NWN2, which is what my arguments were about.

 

Whatever.

 

Despite your inability to recognize how others may interpret what you write, at least this is right:

 

You enjoy NWN for your reasons, and I enjoy NWN2 for mine.

[Tarot Redhand]

Sorry for the delay in replying but I have been quite busy of late and this reply required more thought and research than I had time to give it until now.

First it would appear that some of the kind people who replied to some of my questions were under the mistaken belief that I was asking the questions that I asked because I wanted to actually make use of the information that they supplied in the very near future. I was actually asking out of curiosity, to better understand NwN2. I apologise for any misunderstanding I may have caused.

Also, I was asked for more detail on the groups that I asked about (whether there were NwN 2 equivalents). Here are links to their NwN Wiki pages, which should tell you in a more succinct way than I can.

Hardcore Ruleset (HCR)
Classic Roleplaying Adaptation Project (CRAP)
D20 Modern
http://nwn.wikia.com...urce_ConsortiumPlayer Resource Consortium (PRC)

Of the four, the one that most impressed me was the D20 Modern group. A few things to note on these. As far as I know all four groups are now defunct and their wiki pages were out of date before these groups ceased. I was under the impression that someone was importing the PRC over to NwN 2 a while back, but from what was said in response to my earlier post this apparently didn't happen. Should anyone choose to do the conversion (it is in essence just scripting after all), they should be aware that at least one of my sources maintains that it is somewhat buggy. Having said that, it might prove beneficial to both communities if someone were to do this conversion and eliminate any bugs they did find. Once published it could be converted back with all such bugs removed.

----------------------------------------------------------

@Kaldor Silverwand Thank you for your explanation. I do hope that at 1400+ words my response was both thoughtful and thought provoking. Alas, by only referring to half of a sentence, that particular part of your response was at best disingenuous. What I said was "No potions to buy and very limited healing kits.". Even though no one bothered to ask why that irked me, I will explain. Where a module is written in such a way that it makes it a more difficult game to play than either the OC or expansions, I expect to be warned beforehand on the download page. Now for the most part the author of that module did so. However there was no indication of the healing restrictions that a lack of healing potions and a paucity of healing kits actually imposes. Now had it just been the potions that were restricted I could quite happily have accepted it as this was both implied by the milieu and the story, being set with the background of a magic hating society, demanded it. Healing kits are a different matter entirely. A healing kit consists entirely of mundane things e.g. needle, thread, bandages, herbs etc. Today we would call this a first aid kit, just replacing the herbs with some modern medicines. The modern infantry men and women carry such things in small tins. So explain to me why the healing kits were so severely limited in a military base, because the story didn't. I therefore have to conclude that the only reason for this restriction was to artificially increase the difficulty of the module without any basis in the story or warning before people downloaded it. So I repeat (for the final time I might add) I did not "attack" that module, I gave my honest opinion of it.

Being a NwN modder with all the artistic (as in drawing, painting and sculpting) ability of a one-eyed ant with hiccoughs, I dispute your assertion that "There also isn't any particularly valid reason why the NWN modders do not try to mod NWN2". Such an assertion is somewhat reminiscent of those authority figures, that we've all met, who are not interested in reasons, instead damning all explanations as excuses. I, on the other hand, have not seen any valid reason why I should switch, especially as I am still being stretched by NwN.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Owning both disk and GOG versions of NwN and NwN 2 I am curious. I already own both on disk (twice in the case of NwN) and bought the GOG versions as "insurance" when GOG had one of their many promotions. As such, I haven't actually downloaded either of them. Which brings me to a couple of questions. The GOG version of NwN is supposed to be fully patched yet in the NwN section of these boards I have seen many people’s problems being solved by the expedient of applying the final "mega" patch that Bioware released. I am wondering if a similar situation exists with the GOG version of NwN 2? Also the GOG version of NwN comes with a set of generic serial numbers. If an actual unique serial number is desired you can apply for one from them. Again, is this also true of the GOG version of NwN 2? If so, does someone have a link to where on GOG you apply, please?

------------------------------------------------------------

There is one thing that puzzles me. I have scanned the Custom Content area of this NwN 2 section of the Bioboards and can find no mention of a custom content challenge. In view of one of the implied purposes of this thread is to increase the amount of custom content for NwN 2, I am somewhat surprised by this. I am of the opinion that since its inception, just over four years ago, the CCC has (to a greater or lesser degree) reinvigorated the NwN custom content scene and produced more content by more authors, than would have been the case otherwise. So why not try this. Don't be embarrassed (just kidding here) that you'd be importing an idea from NwN as the NwN community imported the idea from the modding community of another game (sorry can't remember which). If you do decide to do this don't restrict it to just "custom content" as defined by the division of threads on here. You will get an even better response from allowing anything other than complete modules (i.e. scripts, prefabs etc.)

O.K. there is more I could (and may at a later date) say, but I don't want to post another dissertation at this time (dang 1000+ words again!  ).

TR

[rjshae]

There is one thing that puzzles me. I have scanned the Custom Content area of this NwN 2 section of the Bioboards and can find no mention of a custom content challenge. In view of one of the implied purposes of this thread is to increase the amount of custom content for NwN 2, I am somewhat surprised by this. I am of the opinion that since its inception, just over four years ago, the CCC has (to a greater or lesser degree) reinvigorated the NwN custom content scene and produced more content by more authors, than would have been the case otherwise. So why not try this. Don't be embarrassed (just kidding here) that you'd be importing an idea from NwN as the NwN community imported the idea from the modding community of another game (sorry can't remember which). If you do decide to do this don't restrict it to just "custom content" as defined by the division of threads on here. You will get an even better response from allowing anything other than complete modules (i.e. scripts, prefabs etc.)

 

Yes, the CCC has done good work on behalf of the NWN community. But I don't think the NWN2 modding community is large enough to support and sustain such an effort, at least not on a monthly basis. Also, most of the topics selected by the CCC tend to be on the eclectic side, which I think would tend to naturally reduce the number of interested parties. I think the closest the NWN2 modding community has come to such an effort is the SoZ Holiday Project, although that was mostly about prefabs and encounters. Other than that, the community just tends to work on whatever they like, with some collaboration from time to time.

 

First it would appear that some of the kind people who replied to some of my questions were under the mistaken belief that I was asking the questions that I asked because I wanted to actually make use of the information that they supplied in the very near future. I was actually asking out of curiosity, to better understand NwN2. I apologise for any misunderstanding I may have caused.

 

I just assumed you were asking out of curiosity, or for the purpose of furthering your perspective.

[rjshae]

Despite your inability to recognize how others may interpret what you write, at least this is right:

 

Hey, welcome to my ignore list. See ya.

[Tarot Redhand]

@rjshae My simple response is give it a try (also known as the "Build it and they will come" gambit). You won't know for certain until you do and even if nobody makes anything, you will have lost nothing save maybe a little pride. Yes the NwN version is an eclectic mix, but that is all to the good as it allows content creators to try their hands at something different. Remember NwN was in exactly the same position regarding everybody doing their own thing before the custom content challenge started. As to the number of people who might take part, you could be pleasantly surprised with people dropping in who are not seen on these boards regularly, especially if you keep it as open as I suggest. 

 

TR

[-Semper-]

i also thought about a similar challenge - model of the month, quest of the month, area of the month, fully fleshed out npc with background of the month, new spell with custom vfx of the month, etc. it would be refreshing and perhaps it will bring in some new folks who are more interested in doing small stuff for the fun. especially the modelling challenges could increase in difficulty over time to get people into creating their own stuff. dunno, perhaps the creators could even do a small "how it was done" tutorial, if there's enough interest and if they're willing to.

 

as tarot said: what's there to lose? if nobody participates it will be buried like all those other things never to see the light of day.

[rjshae]

Speaking hypothetically then, what sort of challenge theme do you think would be the most attractive to potential modders?