275 réponses à ce sujet

[Axe_Edge]

Wasn't dunniteowl working on a new engine with some other nwn folks?

Come back dunniteowl!

-fixed spelling

[-Semper-]

Why do you say only a few hundred?  Looking at Xaltar's NWN2 Facelift pack, it has an average of 10,000 unique downloads for each file.

 

i am talking about regular players, who always come back playing modules and/or participate in the community to either discuss mods or do modding. the majority of those unique downloads are players who got nwn from gog and simply try to enhance their first playthrough.

i also ain't bad mouthing nwn. i love this game and its modding/storytelling capabilities

 

 

Bioware announced a game where it will be possible to have a DM for MP session. I wounder if it will have a toolset and how powerfull it will be.

 

as always, bioware's games are overhyped. it's the same shitty "dm" concept the new fable game suffers from. it's basically just spawning monsters and taking control of some of them. it's like nwn online with this horrible toolset lite - in no way comparable to nwn.

btw don't get your hopes up high for an editor - it's powered by frostbyte and i doubt that there ever will be one.

 

 

Wasn't dunnitowl working on a new engine with some other nwn folks?

Come back dunnitowl!

 

this never left concepting phase. they argued about what engine would be best and there was some talk about ogre3d back then. the forums went down and the case got closed.

 

ps: someone knows anything about dunnitowl? last i heard was that his house was destroyed or some similar tragedy. are there any news?

[Tchos]

i am talking about regular players, who always come back playing modules and/or participate in the community to either discuss mods or do modding. the majority of those unique downloads are players who got nwn from gog and simply try to enhance their first playthrough.

 

I'm using it as a means of gross estimation.  Even if most of the downloaders play nothing but the OC, it's still 2 orders of magnitude higher than a few hundred (which is the number I see every time I start NWN2, when Skywing's Client Extension tells me how many people are playing NWN2 right now -- which counts only those people who have installed the Client Extension, so you have to assume the actual number is higher).  If we use your restriction of only those who post on the forums, then yes, the number is miniscule.  However, I had a roommate recently who is a big fan of NWN2, and plays it extremely often, but never uses mods and never posts on any forum.  I have another RL friend who loves the game as well, and yet never posts on the forums.

 

I would expect that the number of people who play NWN2, even regularly, and did not download the facelift mod are in the majority, meaning the number has to be doubled at least.

[kamal_]

the new IP in a modern setting (today), they started teasing about it.

 

http://www.pcworld.c...dow-realms.html

"While BioWare made sure to talk up its story hooks and the amount of world-building it has planned—there's already an entire page dedicated to lore"

Oh boy! Really?! A Whole Entire PAGE of Lore! JUST STOP! There's TOO MUCH LORE!

[Arkalezth]

someone knows anything about dunnitowl?

 

This was a while ago on the old forums (he had gone missing even longer ago), but I once sent him a PM or two about some moderation-related stuff, which he replied to rather quickly, saying he was still around, even if not posting. I might have asked how he was and all, but I don't recall anything unusual being mentioned (it wasn't a long and deep conversation, mind you). It's not much, but I think that's the last I heard of him.

 

PS: It's "dunniteowl".

[Axe_Edge]

Just by chance, I relistened to his interview on the nwnpodcast within the past few weeks. Of course it was from a few years ago.

[GCoyote]

I'm using it as a means of gross estimation.  Even if most of the downloaders play nothing but the OC, it's still 2 orders of magnitude higher than a few hundred (which is the number I see every time I start NWN2, when Skywing's Client Extension tells me how many people are playing NWN2 right now -- which counts only those people who have installed the Client Extension, so you have to assume the actual number is higher).  If we use your restriction of only those who post on the forums, then yes, the number is miniscule.  However, I had a roommate recently who is a big fan of NWN2, and plays it extremely often, but never uses mods and never posts on any forum.  I have another RL friend who loves the game as well, and yet never posts on the forums.

 

I would expect that the number of people who play NWN2, even regularly, and did not download the facelift mod are in the majority, meaning the number has to be doubled at least.

 

I think you are pretty close per the 1-9-90 rule.  My regular forum has over 40k registered users while about 900 actively participate.  Even at that, there are normally ten - twelve times as many guests viewing the site as logged in members.  It's frustrating but its a fact of life on the web we just have to deal with.

[Naeryna]

GCoyote, which forum is that?

[GCoyote]

Armchair General.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Build an editor that anyone can use and no one will use it.

 

Thats my response to nwn2 being more complicated. More features means more to learn! Less features mean less to learn because there is less you can do. To complain about complexity in a more powerful system is idiotic at best.

[Shadooow]

The ability for everyone to make things to their own taste is not sad, it's the very core of the NWN 1 and 2 experience. Here are the tools, make whatever  you want.

You did not understand my point. read below:

 

Patches fixed a lot, but still plenty of issues remain.  Still, it is decently playable now.

 

Yes NWN1 is also decently playable. But it still suffer many bugs, most of the peoples never experienced them because they happen in not very usual situations, but they happened to me since I am always trying to abuse the engine to the things it wasnt designed (PvP arena modules, Hack and Slash action modules with unlimited levelling, custom classes, feats, spells). As an example, a polymorphed character with item with constitution bonus (which needs to be merged by that form) will crash server if he has low number of hitpoínts and he unshift which kills him. And there are more issues like this though not as critical. I don't doubt that NWN2 has similar issues - and I as a potentional builder do not want to deal with them because I dont know at this moment nothing about NWN2 and its issues. Learning that and fixing that is extra time I am not willing to spare again because I know how long it took me to learn and fix these issues in NWN1. I absolutely understand that you guys do not need anything like community patch, but if you would made one you would imo increased the chances that NWN1 builders hop to NWN2 and make things easier for any new builders without your knowledges.

 

BTW: Loki, wasn't that you who made a spellfix package for NWN1 very long time ago that Bioware used in their own official patch?

 

I think when it comes down to it it doesn't matter whether NWN 2 is now a very fun game with lots of modding potential. The hardcode clique of NWN 1 developers is stuck on their platform and doesn't want to experiment with NWN2, even if some of their player base does move on.

 

It strikes me as sad because change and the shift to finding a new balance is part of the natural order. It's a bad reaction to close your eyes and pretend nothing is happening.

 

But that doesn't mean this topic was authored with the expectation that NWN 1 players and developers should stop playing that game and move on to NWN 2. The way it appears to be intended is simply to ask: Why don't they at least try it out? No one is asking or expecting people to stop playing and developing for a platform they enjoy, so long as it lasts. But in the end it pays to plan for the future, and until we see a NWN3 that future lies with NWN2.

 

haha so why didnt you move to Neverwinter MMO then? That is said NWN3. Oh wait, you don't consider Neverwinter to be sequel to NWN2 right? Try to imagine someone thinks the same about NWN2 to NWN1.

 

I am definitely not stuck at NWN1, I considered switching to NWN2 three times. It wasn't good idea in past (totally bugged) and its still not good idea now (smaller player base, harder to make a PW, need to start over while on NWN1 I have all set up).

 

You guys wanted to know why NWN modders avoid NWN2. I told you and I havent seen any response that would proved any of my points to be wrong.

[Shadooow]

the future lies with neither game. by the sheer number of players both are basically dead, and only a few hundred remain on either side of the fence. those left enjoy what they do and will enjoy it for the time to come. there won't be any further migration and i strongly doubt that there ever will be another series like nwn, with the focus on mp, modding and dming.
 

 

Yeah, sad but truth.

[Tchos]

haha so why didnt you move to Neverwinter MMO then? That is said NWN3.

 

For one reason, because it's a lone-hero game where you don't control a full party.  For another, because when they shut it down, all of the user-made mods get shut down with it.

[kamal_]

haha so why didnt you move to Neverwinter MMO then? That is said NWN3. Oh wait, you don't consider Neverwinter to be sequel to NWN2 right? Try to imagine someone thinks the same about NWN2 to NWN1.

The makers of NWN1 said NWN2 is the sequel to NWN1 and that they were giving tools and technology to Obsidian to build it with.

 

"Neverwinter Nights remains one of the most important titles BioWare has ever created. We certainly plan to remain involved in the production and development of Neverwinter Nights 2 and we're delighted to initiate another partnership with Obsidian Entertainment and Atari," added Dr. Ray Muzyka, BioWare Corp.'s Joint CEO.

http://www.businessw...nt#.VAG0iGMzL8k

 

"As Greg Zeschuk put it, "We've got a good relationship with the folks at Obsidian and we definitely want to see them succeed in making Neverwinter Nights 2 a great game; we see it -- in part at least -- as still being a BioWare project.""

http://www.ign.com/a...2-first-details

 

So in my opinion there's never going to be a "sequel to NWN1" for the NWN1 community because nothing will never be considered the sequel. Bioware's founders saying NWN2 is the sequel, and giving Obsidian their tools and code, and people from NWN1 working the same job on NWN2* was not enough. If 'they have our blessing, and our tools and code, and our people' is not enough, then nothing will ever be.

 

* such as Marc Jacobs, Art Director for NWN1 and 2. http://www.ign.com/a...2-first-details

[Loki_999]

@Shadooow- Nope, not me. I did very little modding with NWN1 and don't think i released anything i did make. NWN2 i released a few things though. The most downloaded were my combat familiar pack and my alternative Paladins (Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter).

[BartjeD]

 

haha so why didnt you move to Neverwinter MMO then? That is said NWN3. Oh wait, you don't consider Neverwinter to be sequel to NWN2 right? Try to imagine someone thinks the same about NWN2 to NWN1.

 

I am definitely not stuck at NWN1, I considered switching to NWN2 three times. It wasn't good idea in past (totally bugged) and its still not good idea now (smaller player base, harder to make a PW, need to start over while on NWN1 I have all set up).

 

You guys wanted to know why NWN modders avoid NWN2. I told you and I havent seen any response that would proved any of my points to be wrong.

I am under the impression that you are taking my post personally while it wasn't meant in that way. Because of the ('haha...') So, please don't feel that way, if that is the case.

 

You ask why I did not switch to Neverwinter, the MMO. I suspect you know the answer already, because the MMO is not a sequel to NWN2. It doesn't have a proper toolset or DM Client. You cannot host your own server, or make your own custom content. It has a foundry, yes, but Kamal for example tested it out and documented his experience on this message board. It is far, far, more limited that what NWN2 and even NWN1 support.

 

I have myself worked with the NWN1 toolset for a long time. Its where I learned NWScript. I know what I'm talking about when I say that NWN1 was far more limited in the custom content you can make. And it seems sort of like you don't want to face that fact, even if Bioware itself admits NWN2 has a toolset that is far more powerful.

 

I can  tell you from experience that NWN2 has no issue with crashes because of constitution items, and relatively old custom content introduced the transfering of item properties to your shapechange or wildshape. So that's supported as well. I can also tell you that class, feat and spell development appears to be far more advanced in NWN2. The new NWNvault has a topic for example on a new spell system, which can replace the default one and allows you modding access to practically everything to do with spell casting actions and spell execution. I can't imagine that for NWN1, because its not possible.

 

Now as far as your player counter goes, that's just online play. There are many people who play NWN1 and NWN2 who don't play online, and play it without the client extension skywing made. The fact that multiple persistent worlds are still being developed and laucnhed for NWN2 also hints that there apparantly is still plenty of interest. And I can also tell you a Danish persistent world has just made the switch from NWN1 to NWN2, and I think its safe to presume more are preparing to do so. Its nothing new, I'm just pointing it out for the sake of documentation because it illustrates the trend.

 

 

As for my own experiences with NWN2.

 

The camera and control is horrible. Graphic isn't any better, it looks more cartoonish if anything. Loading new areas is slower than in NWN1 (might be due to my not superior HW - dual core 3.0ghz, 4gb ram, GT640graphic - but even if it is due to my HW its not a very good excuse given how bad the graphic is and I can play newer games just fine (AC1,2, Gothic3,PoE,Battlefield 3)). Toolset is a complete mess, I wasnt able to figure out how to work in it, after some time I found out how to paint some tiles etc. but I was really annoyed by it. All this, I could probably somehow ignore, the NWN2 has some good features and ideas such as easier visual effect creating, GUI modifying and... hmm thats probably all. Anyway, NWN1 still leads in engine modifications and extra features using NWNX - I am NWNX developer myself so I know that. And mainly, there is no standardization.

 

 

I do not know where you are getting your information from that NWN2 is a buggy mess, because people in this topic have repeatedly said its decently playable. You interpret that your own way, yet indicate in the above quote you have no recent experience. In fact, you admit that your experience with NWN2 was pre-final patch, and most of it is described as its based on NWN2 at its launch, without even any of the expansions. That sounds like an incredibly preconceived judgement.

 

All of the issues you described were patched. There was a whole feature added for supporting multiple different camera modes, all customizable in the options menu, and I can tell from experience that area loading is only fractionally slower me than NWN1, and super fast. It takes me around 8 seconds on average in multiplayer. As for the cartoonish bits.... I suggest looking at screenshots because NWN2 looks nowhere near as cartoonish as NWN1 withs its blocky and chunky and graphics, which was exactly what Bioware was going for. If you get the HighRes texture pack for NWN2 it looks even sharper and very, very pretty.

 

At no point have I said that this means that NWN1 is dead (or dying). My post merely echoes Bioware itself by saying that NWN2 is the sequel to NWN1, and that the trend points towards it being the future for a potentially large share of players of that game, as well as the developers if they wish to retain their audience(s). Hence the title of this topic, which asks why more NWN1 developers aren't actively looking at NWN2, to familiarize themselves and plan ahead.

 

My answer to that was that NWN1 developers seem to be stuck, even if their players aren't. Not all of them, just some of them. You say yourself aren't stuck but the rest of your post appears to contradict that, because you go on to say that you are conciously sticking exclusively with NWN1. Your post reads to me as if you are seeing NWN2 as a threat, hence why you (apparantly) took my post personally and are making an effort to treat NWN2 as garbage. That's how I'm interpreting your reaction to my post, and your earlier posts in light of that reaction.

 

Sincerely, 

[Loki_999]

Is it me.... or are the posts getting longer?

 

Or is Leon getting... larrrgerrrr!

[Shadooow]

BartJed, you are partially correct. I did tried the game recently but you are right I dont have expansions (i bought original game and expansions are still quite expensive...). I will buy NWN2 Complete and give it a shot.

[Eguintir Eligard]

The mask of betrayer expansion alone represents a 30% increase in frame rate due to optimizations. I can vouche for the gain.

[Obadiah]

Isn't that the patch that also made warlocks wear tights instead of bare supah sexay skin?

Anyway, to throw my 2 cents into how nwn2 hurt the online game - when it was first released there was no way to simply select an online game and play it. You had to find and download the module first. This, I think, stopped a lot of players from just randomly hopping to servers to try things out (as it did me). I think a link or something was added eventually to allow easier downloads. In contrast, for NWN1, if you selected a server running a mod w/o custom content, or if you had the common haks already on your machine, you could just hop on to a server to try out a world, or join someone's networked game.

I still like NWN2 more, as it was an overall more powerful and flexible engine and toolset.

[kamal_]

Isn't that the patch that also made warlocks wear tights instead of bare supah sexay skin?

Anyway, to throw my 2 cents into how nwn2 hurt the online game - when it was first released there was no way to simply select an online game and play it. You had to find and download the module first. This, I think, stopped a lot of players from just randomly hopping to servers to try things out (as it did me). I think a link or something was added eventually to allow easier downloads. In contrast, for NWN1, if you selected a server running a mod w/o custom content, or if you had the common haks already on your machine, you could just hop on to a server to try out a world, or join someone's networked game.

I still like NWN2 more, as it was an overall more powerful and flexible engine and toolset.

However that has not been an issue for at least five years. NWN2 was patched so all you have to do is click on the server in the ingame server browser and it would automatically download anything you need to play on the server, including haks (assuming the server admins set it up to allow that, of course). You now need the client extender or some other solution to make them show up so you can connect, but that is the same with nwn1 for the same reason, Gamespy.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Who even cares about pw? The number of people who use them is nothing compared to single player campaigns, original and user made.

[GCoyote]

Who even cares about pw? The number of people who use them is nothing compared to single player campaigns, original and user made.

 

Really!  From casual poking about one could easily get the impression that PWs are where all the action is.  

[Jfoxtail]

I would hope after so many years many of the old wounds have healed. There is a history lesson if nothing else in this. 

 

Never expect a second generation game to only accentuate the positive of what "you like".

Don't troll and inflame opinions on the Net as you end up locked into silly isolated positions and unsustainable factions.

Accept what is different and move on with your choice. Accept others choices for them.

 

However my old friend Berliad has covered most of the reasons ; though a few other environmental reasons remain.

 

When NWN2 was "coming" and NWN1 was "winding down":

 

1) The NWN1 premium module program was unilaterally cancelled. Wyvern Crown only got released after public pressure and DoDaggerford by Ossian was released for free on the vault. There were complicated (Atari) financial issues around the premium modules program but many NWN1 loyalists felt deeply betrayed by the decision. Further the cancellation was frankly a real slap in the face to many of NWNs most talented authors; Alazander, Hugie, Tiberius, Codi, DLA, etc etc 

 

2) The NWN1 single campaign modules culture was slowing starting to die. The simplicity of the toolset and Lialac's script generator did allow the release of hundreds of modules yearly almost monthly. Many were "bad" ; but those very same artists mentioned above "raised the game". Bad modules sank to the bottom of the most downloaded lists and were lost in obscurity. The number of releases decreased; the quality increased. The game and toolset rules forced high quality content to get noticed such as Old Fester Pot and his Almraven series; or Andarian, Baldercarn,  or etc etc.

 

This is not unique to NWN1 - or does anyone here recall "Slappy the faction pig" for NWN2 ???? Does anyone still play the faction pig module ???

 

3) The NWN1 community itself was fragmenting. Truly.

 

The Persistent world players/builders. The single campaign players. The CEP crowd. The Q crowd. Some very talented artists crossed boundary's but not too many. Factions developed. Where NWN2 satisfied some factions - the game could never satisfy all factions because it was different.

 

4) NWN2 promised a DM Client and toolset at launch.

 

Both were frankly delayed. The first toolset was very buggy (i.e much much more so than NWN1) with corruption issues (see early mods such as Palace of the Silver Princess by a NWN1 Hall of Fame modder). The DM client came out "later". The buggy toolset drove away some of the more talented NWN1 artists. The lack of the DM Client alieniated most of the Persistent Worlders. Again this is not universal as some people seamlessly crossed the boundaries... but not many..

 

5) The toolset complexity demanded a time investment (plug ins, artwork, etc) that some of the old guard (then already in their 30's, 40's) were no longer prepared to invest in.

 

It is more complex and does take more time. Whether its 1 hour, 1 day, 1 month to accomplish your artistic vision ; well some just didn't have it in them. See the blogs for Adam Miller's Darkwaters.  Bottom line is most of the campaign makers who posted on this thread are artists of a fashion - D & D fashion. What appeals to them is great and I admire their work greatly for it. Others who were more drawn to the NWNPW art form would be frankly less impressed. 

 

(Disclaimer I did at one time actively play in all three NWN1. Single Player mods, DM lead coop thru connections, and PWs. Each were amazing in their own way. I have played NWN2 single player campaigns endlessly but I have yet to try an NWN2 persistent world. The plug ins and clients have intimidated me away though I hope to try). 

[Jfoxtail]

To the point of will someone build another game like NWN1 or NWN2. 

 

Its not the toolset its the content. The art will appeal to some other not. If its D&D art you at least have a few hundred million "art samplers" as an audience.

 

Coop Play / DM Client / Toolset are the three key elements.

• Is it any surprise that all the shooter games on console are so popular? Its coop!
• The DM Client above all allows people to emulate PnP across vast distances. It is "better than scripted MMO" because it can react real time"
• Toolset allows fans not only to appreciate the art but compliment it with their own

 

D&D Pen and Paper is/was successful not because of the rule set (toolset?) but because of the periodic additional content.

 

• If gaming companies ever learned this business rule about Fantasy Role Playing - specifically D&D.. they could generate thousands of "apps" of content to their core game system for very little risk or investment financially. You don't need to launch, market, a whole new core game every two years (DAO, Diablo, Elder Scrolls). You could make millions at low risk giving "even dated" toolsets and art concepts to the "fan audience". You control the quality of the "official authorized" content adds through a premium app store.

I might be naive thinking the Electronic Gaming industry could ever think this way.

 

Maybe there are factors I don't fully understand. 

 

However it it seems to me this is obvious that "constant revenue" from periodic content through the app store for D&D is far more sustainable than "fremium MMO" models. Especially if you shift the development of the art of the content on to the fan base for the promise of a royalty; and retain the right of content approval.