184 réponses à ce sujet

[La_Mer]

They should be talking cupcakes. Everyone wants cupcakes.

Only if they're gluten free...

[Cainhurst Crow]

Only if they're gluten free...

 

Chocolate or Vanilla?

[La_Mer]

Chocolate or Vanilla?

Marbled, naturally.

 

I like both flavors.

[thats1evildude]

As per usual, the focus here seems to be on "Well, I'm not attracted to naked ladies, so why would a desire demon appear as a naked lady to me?"

This is falling into the old trap of desire demons are succubi. Sure, the bargains they make with mortals can include sexual gratification, but that's not their end goal. They cater to all desire, including the lust for power and material wealth. They're not representing your desire, they're representing desire itself.

"But why should 'desire' be represented by a naked lady at all?" I don't know. Maybe we should ask the creators of virtually every other fictional series where the embodiments of the Seven Sins have appeared as to why they made Lust into a beautiful woman? Maybe because it's an easy visual shorthand. It's basically an archetype.

And you know, in the end, desire demons are just mooks. Elite mooks, certainly, but mooks all the same. At most, they're minor villains, and not even particularly noteworthy minor villains.

I get why this is a hot button topic, because half-naked ladies = demeaning to women. But really, there's bigger fish to fry. We don't even have a permanent model for hunger demons - which are supposedly one of the five main types of demons - outside of Heroes of Dragon Age. DA2 would have benefited greatly from the addition of one more enemy variant amidst the endless hordes of shades, shades, shades, the odd rage/pride/desire demon and then more shades.

That, to me, is a far bigger concern than altering the model of another creature that has remained visually consistent over the past two games because some people would prefer to have shirtless dudes trying to tear their hearts out instead of shirtless ladies.

[thehomeworld]

Sure they had the fem one already in DA they should do that and if they don't do that they shouldn't have any naked female monsters either quite sick of the blantant one sided naked sexy monster deal.

[Borosini]

As per usual, the focus here seems to be on "Well, I'm not attracted to naked ladies, so why would a desire demon appear as a naked lady to me?"

 

This is falling into the old trap of desire demons are succubi. Sure, the bargains they make with mortals can include sexual gratification, but that's not their end goal. They cater to all desire, including the lust for power and material wealth. They're not representing your desire, they're representing desire itself.

 

"But why should 'desire' be represented by a naked lady at all?" I don't know. Maybe we should ask the creators of virtually every other fictional series where the embodiments of the Seven Sins have appeared as to why they made Lust into a beautiful woman? Maybe because it's an easy visual shorthand. It's basically an archetype.

 

And you know, in the end, desire demons are just mooks. Elite mooks, certainly, but mooks all the same. At most, they're minor villains, and not even particularly noteworthy minor villains.

 

I get why this is a hot button topic, because half-naked ladies = demeaning to women. But really, there's bigger fish to fry. We don't even have a permanent model for hunger demons - which are supposedly one of the five main types of demons - outside of Heroes of Dragon Age. DA2 would have benefited greatly from the addition of one more enemy variant amidst the endless hordes of shades, shades, shades, the odd rage/pride/desire demon and then more shades.

 

That, to me, is a far bigger concern than altering the model of another creature that has remained visually consistent over the past two games because some people would prefer to have shirtless dudes trying to tear their hearts out instead of shirtless ladies.

So, here's what I'm getting:

 

- The overtly sexualized caricature/character under discussion isn't actually all about sex, therefore its sexualized representation isn't important.

- The sexualized representation under discussion is also an established norm, therefore there's no need for it to change.

- The characters that have the sexualized representation under discussion aren't very important to the story, so they're not that important.

- Lastly, there are other things that should be addressed first, because this ain't broke and ain't gotta be fixed.

 

Here's the deal. Something that is sexualized is inherently about sex, on an important level if not all possible levels. Archetypes may be a fact of fiction, but that doesn't mean we have to accept their implementation uncritically. Small characters may not be the movers and shakers of a plot, but they do contribute to the overall tone and implications of a setting. And lastly, the relative importance or unimportance of this issue does not mean it's not worth discussing.

 

This thread is (now) part of a feedback forum. I'm giving my feedback about an issue that has been raised. And my desire to see this kind of change implemented would hurt or disenfranchise no one. 

 

Obviously I'm aware that development time, budget, and artistic vision precludes BioWare from incorporating every possible wish of fandom. That doesn't mean I should stop voicing my opinion, and while I appreciate your candor and comments, I don't appreciate your dismissiveness.

[thats1evildude]

This thread is (now) part of a feedback forum. I'm giving my feedback about an issue that has been raised. And my desire to see this kind of change implemented would hurt or disenfranchise no one.

It potentially hurts me when issues that I consider unimportant (variant desire demon models) are prioritized over issues that I think are important (lack of hunger demons) based on fan feedback in threads like this one.

And while I don't "outrank" anyone else in the fandom in terms of importance, I am still a fan and therefore allowed to give my feedback on an issue that potentially shapes the direction of this franchise, albeit in a minor way.

If I come off as dismissive, I apologize.

[Panda]

Please no! I don't think my quizzys could resist male desire demon!

[Magdalena11]

And you know, in the end, desire demons are just mooks. Elite mooks, certainly, but mooks all the same. At most, they're minor villains, and not even particularly noteworthy minor villains....We don't even have a permanent model for hunger demons - which are supposedly one of the five main types of demons.

That, to me, is a far bigger concern than altering the model of another creature that has remained visually consistent over the past two games because some people would prefer to have shirtless dudes trying to tear their hearts out instead of shirtless ladies.

Actually, since you bring it up, desire demons are among the 5 main types of demons from DAO as well.  Pride (supposedly male, but how can you tell?  It's a genderless humanoid shape that speaks with a male voice.  So was Shale.), hunger, desire, sloth, rage.

[thats1evildude]

Actually, since you bring it up, desire demons are among the 5 main types of demons from DAO as well. Pride (supposedly male, but how can you tell? It's a genderless humanoid shape that speaks with a male voice. So was Shale.), hunger, desire, sloth, rage.

Yes, that's correct. Of course, Sloth has no set appearance according to canon, so we've had a lot of repeat performances by Rage, Desire and Pride, with Shades and Abominations acting as Sloth and Hunger's stand-ins.

[andar91]

Okay, I'm going to address some of the general comments and sentiments I've seen coming from some people in the thread (and elsewhere):

 

-All technical challenges notwithstanding, I would like to see male desire demons included at some point.

-I do not think that by excluding them Bioware was intentionally trying to snub me as a gay male fan.

-The fact that the model they made for desire demons WAS female, however, DOES say something about priorities and assuming who would be seeing it/enjoying it whether you like it or not.

-I would not want the demon to be random but appropriate to the person if possible. This would be hard to do for the PC since it's so variable (we talking PC attraction or Player attraction? I.E. I might like guys but my character might not and so on...), but we could also see Desire Demons tempting people with food or with friendship. Theoretically, a Desire Demon could appear to be an old grandma-like lady and they sometimes have changed shape (as with Feynriel).

 

Continuing with that line of that, the idea that since you're a straight male gamer there should be no male desire demons in the game is ridiculous; likewise, since I'm a gay male gamer I should not expect bunches of male desire demons either. The POINT is that the game would ideally reflect the diversity that exists in the world, not that any one group should dominate it. We know sexual desire happens that does not involve a woman as the object of the desire (never mind a woman with one body type and look and personality), so it would make sense that a Desire Demon could assume a variety of shapes. Since all we've seen of Desire Demons is the same female model, Desire Demons do not currently reflect that diversity (if we're viewing them as purveyors of lust, which is pretty obviously the connotation happening here). In other places, Bioware is actually pretty good about this such as consistently portraying prostitution as a field with both men and women in it.

[Borosini]

It potentially hurts me when issues that I consider unimportant (variant desire demon models) are prioritized over issues that I think are important (lack of hunger demons) based on fan feedback in threads like this one.

And while I don't "outrank" anyone else in the fandom in terms of importance, I am still a fan and therefore allowed to give my feedback on an issue that potentially shapes the direction of this franchise, albeit in a minor way.

If I come off as dismissive, I apologize.

Respectfully, I think it wouldn't be possible to determine if those things were related, in the hypothetical scenario where variant desire demon models are implemented and hunger demons are not. Unless a dev explicitly says "we considered hunger demons, but thought male desire demons were more wanted so we did that instead," there would be no way to prove that the two were connected.

 

As an aside, this reminds me a little bit of the "multiplayer would detract from single-player quality" argument that's often put forth. I don't have a dog in that fight, so take that as you will.

 

I should clarify that I don't find your tone dismissive (and thank you), but did find the content of your argument to be so. It seems to follow a trend I have sometimes noticed when topics like this come up: eventually someone comes along and says "please be quiet, it's actually not important because of x, this isn't a big deal, why are you making such a big fuss, there are other things that are more important, etc." One can be courteous and still intend to dismiss. I happen to think that distracts from the issue.

 

For the record, hunger demon models would be cool. I don't see why that, or anything else, needs to be an either/or with regard to variant desire demons.

[MACharlie1]

The fact that probably every single model in this game will probably be a brand spanking new one (just look at Morrigans upgrade!) I highly doubt theres going to be a decision "Well, we can only have a Hunger Demon OR a male desire demon". And even if every model wasn't a new one, I still doubt that. Come on - be realistic. We're talking the difference of 15,000 polygons in a game made up of near a million of them. 

[Tevinter Rose]

A male desire demon would be very cool, I'm all for it.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Those pics made me lol.

[aTigerslunch]

Actually those Male desire demons kinda look familiar....

 

Bull, was that you when you was younger?!

[Shasow]

Only if there are female ogres...

[dekarserverbot]

i find this gross... but don't get me wrong, the hooves on the desire demon were also a big turn down for me... so big that i started considering Sten attractive.

 

Only if there are female ogres...

sadly no, ogres come from grotesque qunari broodmothers... too bad, female ogres would be hot

[MACharlie1]

Only if there are female ogres...

Females are Brood Mothers. 

 

But an Qunari Broodmother would make for a challenging boss. 

[aTigerslunch]

So that was Stens younger self instead?  oops....my mistake. 

 

 

 

EDIT:  run.....everybody run....its a female Qunari broodmother.....run!!!! 

[MACharlie1]

So that was Stens younger self instead?  oops....my mistake. 

 

 

 

EDIT:  run.....everybody run....its a female Qunari broodmother.....run!!!! 

As opposed to a male broodmother? Hehehe. 

[aTigerslunch]

Yeah....Iron Bull as the brood mother instead..

 

 

 

 

please kill me, kill me now...

[Nefla]

From an in-game perspective desire demons are incredibly dumb. If you are trying to trick someone into making a deal, you should be able to convince that person that you can actually come through. The character is greedy and wants riches, appear as a king and offer them gold. The character is a cutthroat warrior where only strength and power matters, appear as the ultimate warrior and offer to share your abilities. The character grieves over their lost loved one, appear as that loved one and offer to return them/be together again, etc...If I want riches or power or land or my departed loved one back, how the heck would a random naked lady feeling herself up be able to grant those wishes? I can't take her seriously. She looks like the only thing she can offer is sex. In my 30 or so playthroughs of DA:O (and less than that of DAA and DA2) I've never made a deal with one, I always kill them. If she were trying to make a serious deal, it's not working because a naked woman feeling herself up is not attractive to me and I'm actively repulsed by her. I imagine most straight guys would be repulsed by a male demon with his hand down his thong while he talks to you. If they for whatever reason need to seduce you (so you let your guard down or are more open to their ideas I guess?) they should tailor it based on what the character is attracted to. Have a male demon appear if the player's LI is male, a female if the LI is female or if they have no LI, otherwise the scenario is just stupid and off-putting.

[MACharlie1]

From an in-game perspective desire demons are incredibly dumb. If you are trying to trick someone into making a deal, you should be able to convince that person that you can actually come through. The character is greedy and wants riches, appear as a king and offer them gold. The character is a cutthroat warrior where only strength and power matters, appear as the ultimate warrior and offer to share your abilities. The character grieves over their lost loved one, appear as that loved one and offer to return them/be together again, etc...If I want riches or power or land or my departed loved one back, how the heck would a random naked lady feeling herself up be able to grant those wishes? I can't take her seriously. She looks like the only thing she can offer is sex. In my 30 or so playthroughs of DA:O (and less than that of DAA and DA2) I've never made a deal with one, I always kill them. If she were trying to make a serious deal, it's not working because a naked woman feeling herself up is not attractive to me and I'm actively repulsed by her. I imagine most straight guys would be repulsed by a male demon with his hand down his thong while he talks to you. If they for whatever reason need to seduce you (so you let your guard down or are more open to their ideas I guess?) they should tailor it based on what the character is attracted to. Have a male demon appear if the player's LI is male, a female if the LI is female or if they have no LI, otherwise the scenario is just stupid and off-putting.

I believe to the player (I'm not sure why this is but probably because the demon is usually never tempting the player first) thats what they appear to be. To the one they have enthralled, they have an illusion. I.e. the Templar and a family in the Circle Tower, Feynriel in his dreams where the desire demon appears as his father...any one of the demons that have your companions trapped.