376 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

Shep: okay smart guy, answer me this: why wasn't Sovereign wrecked when it plowed through that turian cruiser?
Catalyst: when an insect hits the windshield of your car as you travel down the highway, is the car affected?
Shep: I really don't think...well ... Uhh... Maybe.... If it's a really BIG bug and it... Um... obstructs your view of the road, and... Uhh... You.. Err... don't have any... Umm washer fluid.
Catalyst (to Harbinger) : Call off the harvest. We have apparently jumped the gun in this cycle. These organics still have some advancing to do.
Shep: No wait, we're about to defeat you and-
Catalyst: See you in a thousand years.

Later, back in London...

Hackett: what happened up there, Shepard?
Shep: Uhh... Well... It was all very confusing and... Lots of bright lights... And...umm... I kinda blacked out.. Just for a minute...
Hackett: You're a damn hero!
Shep: Thanks, I guess.

[Quarian Master Race]

The geth did try to escape, but the quarians weren't about to let that happen.

Admiral Gerrel (if you delay uploading the Reaper code): "They're trying to flee! Stay on them!"

If you assume they couldn't flee, accepting the Reapers help is the only way they would have survived. It's extinction now or extinction later, but the latter option at least gave them crucial extra time, which ultimately worked out (unless you side with the quarians of course).

The geth only couldn't escape because they waited until the last second when all their fleets had already been pushed back and bottled up in a single place over Rannoch. If they had realized the way the wind was blowing earlier in the war while they still had room to manuver (which they did, judging by their idiotic decision), they could have got out of dodge before the quarians had them all in one place, as opposed to immediately running to the harbingers of doom for temporary help at the expense of their free will and later their existence. The quarians simply don't have the numbers to adequately pursue the geth if they decide to leave for the 99% of the galaxy that is unexplored. We are talking a literal thousandfold difference in manpower and material. It is the IRL equivalent of Finland being able to exterminate every Chinese person on the planet. (not to take anything away from how hardcore Finland is). Yeah, it's possible, but only if the Chinese all decide to gather in one city and Finland has a nuke.

 

Xen wanted to enslave the billions of Geth. 

But surrendering to the Quarians is far more logical than allying with the Reapers. Sure. That makes since. 

 

How does any of this defend the Quarians destroying it? The Geth had done nothing to the Quarians for three hundred years, and then the Quarians do the equivalent of nuking the entire Atlantic seaboard in a surprise attack. 

I wasn't debating morality, Psycho tried to make a point about how the surprise attack on stationary the Dyson sphere somehow discounted my assertion that the geth would be able to successfully retreat in their starships from an enemy they know is attacking them. Obviously he thinks the quarians were "wrong" which I am not going to even get into because it is subjective moral/philosophical BS. I have merely been stating that, given their goal of survival, the decision taken by the geth was completely illogical. They picked by far the worst of at least 4 different options at their disposal.

Though, I would challenge your assertion that "the geth had done nothing to the quarians for three hundred years" as would plenty of other dead organics, quarian and otherwise, who were not acting in a belligerent manner to them yet still got gunned down for the horrible crimes of being lost in geth space, being an organic on any of the planets that Shepard and Co. went to in ME1 that the geth attacked (keeping in mind the "true" geth made no attempts to distance themselves from the supposed "heretics" or warn the galaxy at large of the danger posed by them), or performing science experiments on a star, for examples given in game.

[ZipZap2000]

In regards to the Geth not warning people about the heretics, if you need to be warned that the synthetic robots who just tried to kill you are in fact trying to kill you.....

[ImaginaryMatter]

So that's why they need to be on Rannoch.

 

Makes perfect sense.

 

C'mon man.

 

This is such a ridiculous point. They've been at war with the Geth for a week or two (17 days is in my head somewhere, not sure), without being on Rannoch, and they can support their fleet just fine. Whatever they've been doing in the Geth war they could do in the war with the Reapers. Where all they have to do is fly to earth and their civilian fleets can chill out somewhere.

 

You've been avoiding everyone's arguments completely. The Civilian Fleets and Military Fleets can not be separated. The Military fleet is reliant on daily supplies from the civilian fleet. Rannoch is needed as it's the only place where the Quarian civilians can actually survive without extensive infrastructure from the Civilian fleet.

 

Also the beginning of the war only went so well because they had a super weapon, which wouldn't work on the Reapers. When Shepard encounters the fleet they are in a bad position, they're losing ships fairly rapidly and they can't even make a dent against the modified Geth. None of us are trying to say what the Quarians did was a perfect plan with no draw backs, they had to choose from several non ideal situations. Sure they can fight with their entire race in cross hairs. Sure they can dickaround in space for a very limited amount of time (the fleets are reliant on external infrastructure). Those options aren't that great either for the Quarians.

 

Honestly, what the Quarians did is no worse than what Shepard and the Alliance had cooked up with their take back Earth idea. No wait. The Quarian's plan was much better, it wasn't as risky and it didn't involve taking the other races to hell with them.

[Quarian Master Race]

In regards to the Geth not warning people about the heretics, if you need to be warned that the synthetic robots who just tried to kill you are in fact trying to kill you.....

I'm talking about before Eden Prime. The geth all share thoughts and memories. They knew that the "heretics" had formed a cukoo religion around the harbinger of doom. Letting them leave the consensus is one thing. Not telling anyone who you know they are targeting for destruction is another. You then bear some responsibility for the consequences.

It is the equivalent of a government finding out about an attack that a terrorist cell based in their country is planning to orchestrate on another, and intentionally choosing to not say anything and let it happen. In some circumstances, it could be considered an act of war if the means to stop it were present and not utilized.

[DeinonSlayer]

In regards to the Geth not warning people about the heretics, if you need to be warned that the synthetic robots who just tried to kill you are in fact trying to kill you.....

If they're not going to take any action to reign them in for years on end, how about at least presenting the "Hey, those guys don't represent us!" angle instead of letting everyone believe they're one and the same? Even the Batarian Hegemony had the sense to issue denials for terrorist actions.

[ZipZap2000]

Eden prime was the first attack at that point the alliance knew what was happening unless you think a Geth transmission would have more weight to it than say I dunno a spectre and a former spectre candidate presenting their evidence to the council? Coz that happened and they still didn't believe them hell they didn't even believe them after a reaper attacked the citadel. "Ah yes Reapers..'"

 

 Asking the geth to reign in the heretics is like asking the Asari to reign in the Batarians. Legions ME2 dialogue.

[SporkFu]

If they're not going to take any action to reign them in for years on end, how about at least presenting the "Hey, those guys don't represent us!" angle instead of letting everyone believe they're one and the same? Even the Batarian Hegemony had the sense to issue denials for terrorist actions.

I don't think the other geth even cared. As far as they're concerned the heretics are building their own future. The geth were seemingly only united in keeping people off their planets. I don't remember the exact lines, but Legion explained the geth POV to shep as something like, 'you stay out of our way, we stay out of your way and we'll all get along just fine. Interfere and we'll interfere right back.'

[DeinonSlayer]

Eden prime was the first attack at that point the alliance knew what was happening unless you think a Geth transmission would have more weight to it than say I dunno a spectre and a former spectre candidate presenting their evidence to the council? Coz that happened and they still didn't believe them hell they didn't even believe them after a reaper attacked the citadel. "Ah yes Reapers..'"
 
 Asking the geth to reign in the heretics is like asking the Asari to reign in the Batarians. Legions ME2 dialogue.

That last part is laughable. It's harder to tell the difference between two identical groups of robots who both kill any organics they encounter on sight and refuse all communication than it is to tell the difference between the Asari and Batarians. Even if one were to disregard physical appearance and judge solely by their politics, the distinctions are still clear.

An analogy for the heretic situation: If I let my identical twin brother walk across the street and stab my neighbor in the heart after he announced his intent to do so, and I choose not to report it or intervene in any way, that would make me an accessory to murder, if not an accomplice.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 

I wasn't debating morality, Psycho tried to make a point about how the surprise attack on stationary the Dyson sphere somehow discounted my assertion that the geth would be able to successfully retreat in their starships from an enemy they know is attacking them. Obviously he thinks the quarians were "wrong" which I am not going to even get into because it is subjective moral/philosophical BS. I have merely been stating that, given their goal of survival, the decision taken by the geth was completely illogical. They picked by far the worst of at least 4 different options at their disposal.

Though, I would challenge your assertion that "the geth had done nothing to the quarians for three hundred years" as would plenty of other dead organics, quarian and otherwise, who were not acting in a belligerent manner to them yet still got gunned down for the horrible crimes of being lost in geth space, being an organic on any of the planets that Shepard and Co. went to in ME1 that the geth attacked (keeping in mind the "true" geth made no attempts to distance themselves from the supposed "heretics" or warn the galaxy at large of the danger posed by them), or performing science experiments on a star, for examples given in game.

They picked by far the worst of the 4 different options at their disposal? Sure sounds like a load of moral/philosophical BS. 

In the MEU, it's impossible to get lost in Geth Space. Everything is connected by relays, and it'd take a complete idiot to jump into the Perseus Veil and not know it. And it's not ridiculous for the Geth not to let outsiders into their territory. Every single encounter with a non-Geth has ultimately resulted in attempted murder, so it's not that much of stretch for them not to take a liking to outsiders. 

And how, exactly, are the reclusive Geth supposed to warn the Citadel races that the heretics are going to attack? Send an E-Mail? Risk sending a ship that will probably get destroyed on sight? How?

[DeinonSlayer]

They picked by far the worst of the 4 different options at their disposal? Sure sounds like a load of moral/philosophical BS.
In the MEU, it's impossible to get lost in Geth Space. Everything is connected by relays, and it'd take a complete idiot to jump into the Perseus Veil and not know it.

And it's not ridiculous for the Geth not to let outsiders into their territory. Every single encounter with a non-Geth has ultimately resulted in attempted murder, so it's not that much of stretch for them not to take a liking to outsiders.

While I won't argue the difficulty of getting lost there, that last part is flatly untrue. Every single encounter? Were the emissary ships they shot down smuggling nukes or something? Were there no Quarians who defended them? That their own observations told them there were organics who lacked either the desire or the means to fight them (or both) didn't stop them from killing every last one in what was once Quarian territory. It's almost as if they're at least partially to blame for the situation they find themselves in.

And how, exactly, are the reclusive Geth supposed to warn the Citadel races that the heretics are going to attack? Send an E-Mail? Risk sending a ship that will probably get destroyed on site? How?

Gee, that's a tough one. If only there were some form of electronic communications network capable of disseminating anything from stock quotes to elcor porn from one end of the galaxy to the other in minutes. What's the extranet version of Twitter? Maybe they could contact Councilor Tevos' beeper or send a telegram.

[ZipZap2000]

The analogy is accurate, the source Legions ME2 dialogue. More specifically his loyalty mission. They allowed the Heretics to leave and determine their own future they became separate entities with separate beliefs they weren't even called "Geth" anymore.

 

Calling the second part "laughable" in order to dismiss the first? Hmmm.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

While I won't argue the difficulty of getting lost there, that last part is flatly untrue. Every single encounter? Were the emissary ships they shot down smuggling nukes or something? Were there no Quarians who defended them? That their own observations told them there were organics who lacked either the desire or the means to fight them (or both) didn't stop them from killing every last one in what was once Quarian territory. It's almost as if they're at least partially to blame for the situation they find themselves in.

Gee, that's a tough one. If only there were some form of electronic communications network capable of disseminating anything from stock quotes to elcor porn from one end of the galaxy to the other in minutes. What's the extranet version of Twitter? Maybe they could contact Councilor Tevos' beeper or send a telegram.

Every single encounter prior to their policy of treating all ships as threats. It's not that reasonable, but I can understand it. Of course the Geth are partially to blame for their situation; both sides of the conflict are completely idiotic. 

But who would take that seriously? The Geth aren't the ones to be sending diplomatic emissaries to warn about a completely separate group, and any email they send is just going to be regarded as spam.  

[DeinonSlayer]

The analogy is accurate, the source Legions ME2 dialogue. More specifically his loyalty mission. They allowed the Heretics to leave and determine their own future they became separate entities with separate beliefs they weren't even called "Geth" anymore.
 
Calling the second part "laughable" in order to dismiss the first? Hmmm.

A whole lot of good any of that did. They waited two whole years to tell this to anyone.

[ImaginaryMatter]

But who would take that seriously? The Geth aren't the ones to be sending diplomatic emissaries to warn about a completely separate group, and any email they send is just going to be regarded as spam.

 

I think he's talking about the extranet. Like why didn't the true Geth create gww.gethschism.enet to tell everyone about it?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I think he's talking about the extranet. Like why didn't the true Geth create gww.gethschism.enet to tell everyone about it?

Yeah, so do I. 

But I could create a website about how the Pacific Northwest and the Great Plains are going to leave the United States and invade Mexico, and how Texas is only kinda going along with it, but even if it was true, Mexico wouldn't pay it much heed. 

[DeinonSlayer]

Every single encounter prior to their policy of treating all ships as threats. It's not that reasonable, but I can understand it. Of course the Geth are partially to blame for their situation; both sides of the conflict are completely idiotic.

Although I still hold that "every single encounter" as false, I doubt we'll change each others' minds. Seems to me this "policy" was one of treating all organics as threats. Shooting down emissaries was simply a continuation of the "no organics" policy which manifested itself as the extinction of the Quarians on Rannoch and her colonies.

But who would take that seriously? The Geth aren't the ones to be sending diplomatic emissaries to warn about a completely separate group, and any email they send is just going to be regarded as spam.

I'm sure they could think of something. Heck, they could project themselves inside the Council Chambers if need be, hijack communications, blare the message from every terminal across Citadel and Alliance space: WE DON'T SUPPORT THEM, NOW LEAVE US ALONE. Or they could sit back behind the veil, continue killing anyone who approaches them, and let the entire galaxy continue thinking they and the heretics are one and the same for years to come while giving no indication that they're aren't building up for another attack.

[Farangbaa]

Yeah, I rolled my eyes when that happened. It was a blatant instance where "rule of cool" trumped lore. See also "thanix missiles" when the Thanix system consists of liquid metal accelerated to relativistic velocities and the Cain's projectile honing in on its target like a moth circling a lamp when it's described as essentially being a very big, very fast bullet. If you're OK with things like that, nothing I say will change your mind.

Think again before you roll your eyes at that. Imagine how the final assault on earth would be if the codex entry about passing a relay is right and how that would affect the assault: The Reapers would just wait around the relay with a few of them and shoot everything that comes through the relay. One by one the allied forces would be destroyed and there'd be no final assault.

Except, y'know, Reapers, the second a couple of them turned up in whatever system they happen to be in. You're managing logistics for a flotilla of fifty thousand ships. If you're in the middle of food distribution, a drive-core discharge rota, or mining, refining, and distributing fuel from a gas giant (the kinds of stops which are absolutely unavoidable), you're not exactly in a position to pack up and go in the space of time it takes for them to pick a target and shoot. There's any of a hundred ways to get caught with your pants down, and if you lose a liveship (or a HE3 scoop, or a refinery ship, or...) you're screwed.

And how would being on Rannoch be any different? Rannoch would have to defended against a Reaper assault, Rannoch cannot be jumped to FTL. The distance between Rannoch and the military fleet will be larger and thus sustaining it will prove to be harder.

I can already tell this'll be an entertaining rant...

No, it won't.

Dump them on some airless moon? Not survivable, especially in the event the fleet doesn't come back for them (which incidentally happens even if we win thanks to the destruction of the relay network). The whole idea is giving their species a shot at surviving the war while making their ships available to fight it. Disregarding their needs does them no favors.

And how's Rannoch going to save them? There's nothing there. Rannoch would first need be heavily invested in before it could even house a population of Quarians. (something which is, among other logistical things, completely overlooked by the game). And again, Rannoch makes the civilian population sitting ducks for the Reapers. They'd have to be defended and food should be brought to them instead of from them to the military fleets.

I suppose you could make the ships available faster by simply spacing the civvies, but I don't think it'd go over too well.

Stop thinking purely in terms of shooters. Hackett specifically needs them as cargo transport. Logistics. The cruisers and destroyers are nice, but what they really need are the cargo holds which the Quarians currently have partitioned into living space across the civilian fleet. Before they can carry companies of Turian soldiers, levo food for Krogan fighting on Palaven, or raw materials for the Crucible project, the civvies (and the metal cubicles they live in) need to be cleared out.

By offloading on Rannoch, each of these ships only need food for the few dozen crew needed to run them instead of hundreds or thousands of additional occupants. The Turians could probably spare that much in exchange for the transport service they're providing; enough at least to supplement what the Fleet can manage to get out to them.

Dropping the civilians on Rannoch does not equal their safety and would detract from the Quarians' military strength.

No, you would not have two full-strength fleets. You got no commitments from the Geth (who severed communication with their only outside contact after the Reapers invaded and before the Quarians did), and the other is severely limited in both utility and mobility so long as it's weighed down with civilians. This is not difficult to grasp.

Had the Geth chosen any other star system in their territory to build their sphere around and opened comms to the outside galaxy, this could easily have been avoided.

Even if I wouldn't get the Geth, the Reapers would have an extra fleet to defeat instead of one joining them.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I'm sure they could think of something. Heck, they could project themselves inside the Council Chambers if need be, hijack communications, blare the message from every terminal across Citadel and Alliance space: WE DON'T SUPPORT THEM, NOW LEAVE US ALONE. Or they could sit back behind the veil, continue killing anyone who approaches them, and let the entire galaxy continue thinking they and the heretics are one and the same for years to come while giving no indication that they're aren't building up for another attack.

 

I guess one method would be to send out a bunch of broadcast beacons to known parts of the galaxy that just repeat whatever message the Geth can think of. They might even be able to handwave in ME2 that they didn't reach the important people in time during ME1.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Although I still hold that "every single encounter" as false, I doubt we'll change each others' minds. Seems to me this "policy" was one of treating all organics as threats. Shooting down emissaries was simply a continuation of the "no organics" policy which manifested itself as the extinction of the Quarians on Rannoch and her colonies.

I'm sure they could think of something. Heck, they could project themselves inside the Council Chambers if need be, hijack communications, blare the message from every terminal across Citadel and Alliance space: WE DON'T SUPPORT THEM, NOW LEAVE US ALONE. Or they could sit back behind the veil, continue killing anyone who approaches them, and let the entire galaxy continue thinking they and the heretics are one and the same for years to come while giving no indication that they're aren't building up for another attack.

Ultimately, their one encounter with non-Geth(I hate the terms "Organics" and "Synthetics") ended up in attempted genocide. Their policy isn't reasonable, but it's understandable. 

Ah yes, because the Geth can totally do that. That's how hacking works. Sure.   

Why should the Geth care anyway? It seems unlikely they have a developed PR department. 

(Now that I think of it, the Geth did send out an envoy. Legion.)

[DeinonSlayer]

Think again before you roll your eyes at that. Imagine how the final assault on earth would be if the codex entry about passing a relay is right and how that would affect the assault: The Reapers would just wait around the relay with a few of them and shoot everything that comes through the relay. One by one the allied forces would be destroyed and there'd be no final assault.

Pretty much. Begs the question of why they didn't take the Citadel much sooner. If they really needed to, they could have had the grand fleet congregate in the Arcturus system and make the short jaunt to Earth via FTL as a single massed formation - the Charon relay only cuts off a few days' travel time.

And how would being on Rannoch be any different? Rannoch would have to defended against a Reaper assault, Rannoch cannot be jumped to FTL. The distance between Rannoch and the military fleet will be larger and thus sustaining it will prove to be harder.

Read again carefully. The cargo holds of the civilian fleet are their primary value to the war effort. As I said, the needs of individual ships will be much less in terms of food when they no longer have hundreds of civilians in their cargo holds. The liveships stay at Rannoch and keep the bulk of the population fed while the Turians in all likelihood compensate the Quarians with the (much more manageable amount of) food and fuel needed to facilitate the transportation they provide. They probably offloaded the food production gear from the liveships to Rannoch's surface instead of immediately deploying them to the fight.

And how's Rannoch going to save them? There's nothing there. Rannoch would first need be heavily invested in before it could even house a population of Quarians. (something which is, among other logistical things, completely overlooked by the game). And again, Rannoch makes the civilian population sitting ducks for the Reapers. They'd have to be defended and food should be brought to them instead of from them to the military fleets.

Rannoch won't save them. The fall of Thessia, Palaven and Earth are proof enough that there is no safe harbor from the Reapers. What it does do is free their fleet from the constraints placed on them by keeping that populace alive in space, allow their ships to do the work they need to be doing. It gives them the flexibility to split up and assist the Reaper war effort while giving their populace a better shot at long-term survival as a species than they'd have anywhere else. They're throwing in on the Crucible like the rest of the species out there.

Dropping the civilians on Rannoch does not equal their safety and would detract from the Quarians' military strength.

Freeing up their cargo holds to handle logistics for everyone else makes their fleet weaker? ...Uh, okay?

Even if I wouldn't get the Geth, the Reapers would have an extra fleet to defeat instead of one joining them.

Which they could do by popping the liveships from a distance were they to hide in space, costing you both the civilians and the fleet in one go, instead of having the fleet scattered across the galaxy handling logistics with the civilians off somewhere else. Lose the civilians in the latter scenario and you'd still have the fleet.

[Farangbaa]

The civilians on Rannoch would need to be fed, ya know? 

Food would need be brought to them instead of them bring food to the fleets.

 

If we're gonna ignore that, they could be dropped on any planet, moon or even be spaced.

[Quarian Master Race]

They picked by far the worst of the 4 different options at their disposal? Sure sounds like a load of moral/philosophical BS. 

In the MEU, it's impossible to get lost in Geth Space. Everything is connected by relays, and it'd take a complete idiot to jump into the Perseus Veil and not know it. And it's not ridiculous for the Geth not to let outsiders into their territory. Every single encounter with a non-Geth has ultimately resulted in attempted murder, so it's not that much of stretch for them not to take a liking to outsiders. 

And how, exactly, are the reclusive Geth supposed to warn the Citadel races that the heretics are going to attack? Send an E-Mail? Risk sending a ship that will probably get destroyed on sight? How?

No it isn't in any way a morality judgement. Not even a little. If my goal is to survive and I have the choice between being shot In the head or the hand, based on what I know of human physiology, it would be stupid for me to choose being shot in the head. Yet this is exactly what the geth did. Their goal was survival, and instead of fleeing (high chance of survival), surrenduring and allowing quarians to control them (high chance of survival, albiet without free will), stand and fight without reaper assistance (low chance of survival), they chose to become reaper thralls (loss of free will and virtually nonexistent chance of survival without intervention of space jesus).

The rest of your post is just so dumb I am literally not even going to respond at length, except to ask if you think that the quarians that tried to protect their geth in Rannoch: Geth Fighter Squadrons were imaginary red sand induced hallucinations of Shepard's. Now contrast that with your hyperbolic"every single encounter with non geth has ultimately resulted in attempted murder" rubbish.

Practically the only thing you are right about is that both sides share some blame for the situation. Please, learn the universe lore so you can actually come up with a valid response instead of just blindly regurgitating emotionally driven, unsupported and incorrect nonsense.

[ZipZap2000]

"They waited two whole years to tell anyone"

 

We come back to my original statement if you need to be told the people trying to kill you are trying to kill you....

 

Anderson: We're still facing isolated pockets of resistance

Anderson: We stopped calling it a war a long time ago

 

It's clear from both of those statements nobody needs to be told anything, the council doesn't intend to enter the veil so there's no need to mention it until the derelict Reaper and subsequent mission on the heretic station.

[Quarian Master Race]

The civilians on Rannoch would need to be fed, ya know? 

Food would need be brought to them instead of them bring food to the fleets.

 

If we're gonna ignore that, they could be dropped on any planet, moon or even be spaced.

*Ignores Tali talking about agriculture samples literally right after the mission*.