376 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

Does a toaster deserve to die if it burns your toast? Yes.

[RiptideX1090]

Are you really asking if the entire race of 17 million men, women and children deserve to die? Seriously? You're asking if it's okay to kill civilians, children and babies on a genocidal scale?

 

Personally, I subscribe to the notion that both the quarian and the geth are in the wrong. Both the Admirals and Legion lie to Shepard at some point, both use the Commander to achieve their own ends, and both have spent 300 years quietly glaring at one another from across the galaxy, unwilling to extend an olive branch, and both have tried to wipe another species from the face of the galaxy map.

 

Killing either the geth or the quarians during the Rannoch confrontation is wrong, because you can save both. But if you have to kill one or the other because you're not happy unless you've committed some fictional genocide, how about not killing the race that isn't synthetic, and thus can't be reconstructed later down the line, instead of the one where extinction is utterly permanent.

[SporkFu]

Does a toaster deserve to die if it burns your toast? Yes.

Does an alarm clock deserve to die if the snooze button stops functioning? Hell yes.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

Throughout the ME3 missions that concerned the Geth-Quarian conflict, events consistently lent toward a sympathetic feeling to the Geth's side. Sure the Geth chased the Quarians off their own home planet, but;

 

1. The Quarians started the war because of a simple question asked by a single Geth unit who was becoming self-aware

 

2. The Geth were initially non-violent during this ordeal, until the Quarians had already begun killing them off

 

3. The Quarians killed many of their own people who rejected the notion that the Geth needed to be destroyed

 

4. The Geth spared the surviving Quarians that chose to retreat at the end of the Morning War

 

You know it's not surprising that you gloss over the fact that what caused the Quarians to flee Rannoch was the Geth almost completely wiping them out since ME3 kinda glosses over that fact too. But that, you know, happened.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Luddites!!! All of you who wouldn't kill off the Quarians and save the Geth!

 

10 paragraphs explaining why you're all Luddites!

 

[/Channeling Auld Wulf]

[RiptideX1090]

Luddites!!! All of you who wouldn't kill off the Quarians and save the Geth!

 

10 paragraphs explaining why you're all Luddites!

 

[/Channeling Auld Wulf]

 

I know you're joking, but I still dislike that assertion from pro-geth and pro-synthesis folks.

 

I'm actually VERY pro-technology in my beliefs. I just think that's beside the point when rewriting the entire matrix of life and connecting everyone electronically to immortal genocidal AI super-entities, and when dealing with the implications of wiping out entire sentient species. :l

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I know you're joking, but I still dislike that assertion from pro-geth and pro-synthesis folks.

 

I'm actually VERY pro-technology in my beliefs. I just think that's beside the point when rewriting the entire matrix of life and connecting everyone electronically to immortal genocidal AI super-entities, and when dealing with the implications of wiping out entire sentient species. :l

 

Good, I'm glad you know I'm joking. I'm very pro-technology. I'm also very pro-nature. You can be both.

 

There are things about the Quarian - Geth plot I absolutely hated. Why did the Geth need the reaper code? The entire purpose of the reaper code was to make them vulnerable to the destroy ending. The entire plot was extremely contrived. I think they could have written something far better.

 

You had something in the Crucible that could pinpoint the location of every single reaper in the galaxy. If you completed the Crucible, and if you had high enough EMS so that it wouldn't get damaged on the way to the Citadel, why did it have to destroy the mass relays in all the endings? Because it was meant to be the end of the series and leave the galaxy a wasteland. Why did it have to destroy all technology we depended upon in the destroy ending including all synthetics? To poison that ending so that we'd pick one of the other two. But it didn't matter in the original ending because they were all the same: you died, the relays were destroyed, and the Normandy crashed. The end. Why people bothered to argue about the endings was crazy. It was like arguing politics. Ah, but the meaning behind them. Who cares? You were dead.

[Jorji Costava]

There are things about the Quarian - Geth plot I absolutely hated. Why did the Geth need the reaper code? The entire purpose of the reaper code was to make them vulnerable to the destroy ending. The entire plot was extremely contrived. I think they could have written something far better.

 

I think there were a few other things going on with the Reaper code beyond that. It's what enables the entire outcome of the war to be placed in Shepard's hands; if the Geth have the code, they win, and if they don't, they lose. And of course, it's Shepard who has final say on whether or not they get it. Contrived to be sure, but symptomatic of the series' need to put the outcome of every single major galactic conflict in the hands of the player.

 

The Reaper code is also necessary to push forward the Pinocchio agenda of the Rannoch arc; it enables the Geth to be 'alive' (whatever that means). So in the final analysis, I would say that the Reaper code did a lot of things for the story, but none of those things were particularly good.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think there were a few other things going on with the Reaper code beyond that. It's what enables the entire outcome of the war to be placed in Shepard's hands; if the Geth have the code, they win, and if they don't, they lose. And of course, it's Shepard who has final say on whether or not they get it. Contrived to be sure, but symptomatic of the series' need to put the outcome of every single major galactic conflict in the hands of the player.

 

The Reaper code is also necessary to push forward the Pinocchio agenda of the Rannoch arc; it enables the Geth to be 'alive' (whatever that means). So in the final analysis, I would say that the Reaper code did a lot of things for the story, but none of those things were particularly good.

 

Yeah, I know. Video game logic.

[Shuidizi]

The only races/species in ME universe that deserve death are Leviathans and Reapers. All others I can sympathize to some extent, but those two get my utter and eternal hatred.

[Quarian Master Race]

InB4 20 page flamewar.

This probably isn't surprising to anyone, but I actually had the opposite reaction to the Rannoch arc and actually wanted to kill off the geth simply for being morons, and I will explain why.

Throughout ME1 and ME2, the conflict is presented in a manner in which both sides have characteristics that generate both sympathy and disdain. In the case of the quarians, let's be honest, if you don't subscribe to the view that the geth are just machines who should do as they're told, then they "started" it and the casually racist attitudes of some of them toward the geth (ME1 and pre-Legion Tali, Gerrel) doesn't help, but then again they are paying for their transgressions by having been unjustly treated like varren crap by the other species of the galaxy for 300 years despite being otherwise considerate, helpful, upstanding folks.

Then you have the geth. They were greeted with attempted genocide when they dared to question whether or not they had the same rights to exist as organics, so them just defending their right to exist is sympathetic. The way they go about this, however, is by revenge genociding the quarians down to the last man, woman and child from a pre-war population of multiple billions into an endangered species of less than 1 million (for comparison, the holocaust is considered horrible by our standards and "only" resulted in a reduction of the Jewish population in Europe by 60%, not the 99.9999+% that the quarians faced). This is despite the fact that they knew many quarians were sympathetic to their right to life and wanted to help them.

Furthermore, despite Legion's assertions that they are not belligerent towards organics, they seemingly attack and try to exterminate on sight any organic that dares enter "their" space for any reason. They don't ask if said organics are there for peaceful purposes, lost or otherwise, they just assume hostility and ruthlessly destroy them. This is supported by the descriptions of multiple planets in ME2 and the actions of all the non heretic geth you run into during missions on Haestrom, the Migrant Fleet, and multiple N7 assignments. They don't ask why you are there, they just start shooting at you. Tali and her research team are attacked for trying to conduct a science experiment, and when Shepard shows up, the geth just attack you for seemingly no reason. "We seek to understand, not incite" my arse, Legion. Your species has just as much prejudice and fear towards organics as they have towards you. There is nothing wrong with that(in fact it makes the conflict far more interesting), but do not attempt to say otherwise.

By talking to Legion, you learn more about the geth. You learn that they are beings that aspire to become more than their programming, to "build our own future" as Legion puts it. Then along comes the plot of ME3, where this is thrown completely out of the airlock.

The quarians attack, and the first response by the losing geth is to immediately allow themselves to become enslaved thralls of the Reapers, a race that they KNOW is intent upon wiping them and every other advanced race in the galaxy out. They don't even seem to try any other solutions. This is unjustifiable simply for the reason that the geth will die either way, whether by the hand of the quarians or the Reapers after they have used the geth to help extinguish every other race in the galaxy.

Legion at first justifies this unholy alliance with the harbingers of doom as necessary for survival, but then reveals that the geth are intent upon keeping the Reaper derived "upgrades" for completely nebulous and self serving reasons. It is at this point that I lost any sympathy for them. What ever happened to "building our own future" Legion? We are supposed to go through this game seeing Cerberus and TIM as as the indoctrinated evil nemesis of all free people everywhere because they are irresponsibly using dangerous reaper tech to try and "improve" the human race by forcibly turning them into mindless huskified slaves, yet we have no second thoughts when the geth wish to do the synthetic equivalent of exactly the same thing to themselves?

Seriously, they have no idea how these code upgrades work or what they could entail. In fact, right after you make peace, the Asari councillor informs you that there are still pockets of Reaper controlled geth (the basis for the geth enemy faction in multiplayer). How did they know that the Reapers would not be able to reinslave them? How is no one suspicious that the entire consensus might already be the synthetic equivalent of indoctrinated? More importantly, what happened to them wanting to build their own future? They simply accept some "upgade" for the vague reasoning of finding it "indicative of life", despite the fact that Legion himself equates comparing geth to living organics on such qualities as a form of racism equivalent to benign anthropomorphism in ME2.

The geth got turned from a race of different, calculating, ruthless, but nonetheless interesting machines into a bunch of stupid mechanical Pinocchios in ME3 in a seemingly successful attempt to tug at the heartstrings of overly emotional dumb people. The whole conflict was butchered from two sides with legitimate grievances that made you actually think about prejudice and genocide into a ridiculous charade where the quarians played pantomime villians to the geth's innocent wish to be treated equal to organics (despite Legion's previous assertions that this would be tantamount to racism).

Quite simply, the writers of ME3 took a character (Legion) and an interesting race that I liked and made me want to murder them out of pity, and in the process reduced an interesting storyline into a completely one sided wash, despite their ridiculous and ham fisted attempts to appeal to blind emotional pity and make me hate those mean quarians. In other words, exactly the same thing they did with the Genophage arc in relation to its presentation in the previous two games vs ME3.

So no, the quarians don't deserve death for their actions in ME3 even while portrayed as pantomime villians. In fact, they deserve praise if they wipe out the Reaper controlled geth. In an indirect way they are helping to defeat the enemy by destroying their thralls no differently than when Shepard and Cerberus destroy the collectors, and they don't even ask you provide evidence of the Reapers existence or to mediate any stupid conferences first, unlike the other races.

I always make peace if unless I am roleplaying one side or the other, simply because this game has no consequences for irresponsible decisions and thus letting the geth keep the Reaper code turns out all hunky dory. However, if I didn't know the outcome, I would kill off the geth every single time unless they renounced that Reaper code. Without more information, it is simply too much of an unknown, and it goes against everything in their philosophical views that made me like and have sympathy for them in the first place. Because this isn't an option as a result of poor writing and railroading, though, they get to live, because I am not going to condemn a species to death for a ******-poor last minute change in how they are written.



 

[KaiserShep]

Arguments about whether or not an entire species deserves to die because of a conflict started centuries ago by their ancestors are pointless.

 

In their position, humanity would very well have done the same thing they did and attempt time and time again to destroy their ancestor's creation, and if I was part of their group, I'd dance on their synthetic graves if we ended up victorious.

[Straw Nihilist]

Where's DeinonSlayer?

Preparing. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yay. Here we go. 

"The Geth are innocent little puppies who only asked if they had a soul. Awwwww."

Then they slaughtered over 99% of a population, with tactics such as biological and chemical WMDs. 

I do remember a thread where it was claimed that the Quarians were teaching children how to properly destroy a Geth, and then using them as shock troops. And that the attack on Freedom's Progress was the result of a Quarian deal with the Collectors. 

People, both sides are and were in the wrong. 

Stop acting like the Geth are innocent. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

There are things about the Quarian - Geth plot I absolutely hated. Why did the Geth need the reaper code? The entire purpose of the reaper code was to make them vulnerable to the destroy ending. The entire plot was extremely contrived. I think they could have written something far better.

 

I think the Red beam targets synthetics through some synthetic quality and not Reaper tech. If that doesn't make sense this is the device that can somehow make new DNA for every living creature.

[KaiserShep]

If that doesn't make since this is the device that can somehow make new DNA for every living creature.

 

Without even giving people horribly malignant tumors, no less. Conrad's dissertation is truly miraculous.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I think the Red beam targets synthetics through some synthetic quality and not Reaper tech. If that doesn't make since this is the device that can somehow make new DNA for every living creature.

It uses a mystical element called asspullium. 

[DeinonSlayer]

See how I've been leaving this topic be? I think I've grown.

[Steelcan]

See how I've been leaving this topic be? I think I've grown.

Shall I fire up the gif file?

[DeinonSlayer]

Shall I fire up the gif file?

Either that or we go to a twenty page flame war.

[Steelcan]

Either that or we go to a twenty page flame war.

[RiptideX1090]

I always sue for peace with the quarians and geth.

 

But it still pisses me off that there is no way to talk Legion out of the Reaper code. It's REAPER CODE. And it would of been a good way to have them live in Destroy. You convince Legion stay true to his principles and have the geth find their own way, and in the end, you are rewarded if you pick Destroy. It would of worked thematically.

 

But NOPE. That whole thing was handled rather poorly.

[DeinonSlayer]

I always sue for peace with the quarians and geth.

But it still pisses me off that there is no way to talk Legion out of the Reaper code. It's REAPER CODE. And it would of been a good way to have them live in Destroy. You convince Legion stay true to his principles and have the geth find their own way, and in the end, you are rewarded if you pick Destroy. It would of worked thematically.

But NOPE. That whole thing was handled rather poorly.

I especially loved the "It must be because you're an anti-synthetic racist!" vibe they injected for Shepards who don't side with the Geth.

EDIT: ...oh, right.

[Steelcan]

I especially loved the "It must be because you're an anti-synthetic racist!" vibe they injected for Shepards who don't side with the Geth.

That conversation with EDI, flame and sword are not enough to purge it

[RiptideX1090]

I especially loved the "It must be because you're an anti-synthetic racist!" vibe they injected for Shepards who don't side with the Geth.

EDIT: ...oh, right.
 

 

I hated that.