376 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

It's a symptom of the game's decision to make the fall of Thessia the low point of the war for the characters; if you bought into the idea that the Asari are somehow 'special' and constitute the pinnacle of galactic civilization, then this might have worked for you, but otherwise, it's just perplexing why Thessia of all places is supposed to matter so much more to Shepard than Earth or Palaven.
 
Perhaps they could have cut out the Citadel coup (not a great mission on its own anyways) and replaced Thessia with a mission in which the Citadel is overrun by the Reapers. We have three games of history with the Citadel, so if you really need a gut punch to set up the climax of the story, it's a much more logical place to work from. Plus, the Citadel doesn't belong to any one species, so losing it would reinforce the sense that the war is going badly not just for the Asari or for humanity, but for the galaxy as a whole.

Sorry, but Thessia mattering more to "canon" Shepard than Earth is just nonsense. Maybe more than Palavan (and even that is debatable), but definitely not Earth. Thessia gets its 15 minutes of fame and then you hear nothing about the situation there (unless you play the AY monastery post-Thessia, then you get an extra line). But we spend the entire game moping about Earth and Shep tries to convince everyone that retaking earth is much more important than defending Thessia, Palaven, etc.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ME3 was promoted as the best place to start.

[Jorji Costava]

Sorry, but Thessia mattering more to "canon" Shepard than Earth is just nonsense. Maybe more than Palavan (and even that is debatable), but definitely not Earth. Thessia gets its 15 minutes of fame and then you hear nothing about the situation there (unless you play the AY monastery post-Thessia, then you get an extra line). But we spend the entire game moping about Earth and Shep tries to convince everyone that retaking earth is much more important than defending Thessia, Palaven, etc.

 

What matters here isn't the amount of screen time Thessia gets, but its position in the story. I've argued before that ME3 is drawing from Blake Snyder's Save the Cat! beat sheet; Thessia is clearly positioned as the "All is Lost/Dark Night of the Soul" moment in the story; it's the low point before the characters make their final push towards victory (such as it is). When you put a moment in the story in that spot, you're implicitly telling your audience that this is the worst thing that has happened to these characters, which is probably why Shepard is so apologetic to Tevos and so pissed off at Joker over his joke about the Asari (nothing similar happens with Palaven, for instance). What I'm saying is that we don't have enough of a connection to Thessia to substantiate this.

 

I won't argue with you about Earth's inflated importance; heck, you could say the exact same thing about the human colonies in ME2. We don't have much of a connection with any of these places, which is why I suggested a hypothetical fall of the Citadel as a replacement.

[themikefest]

I've said before, switching the Thessia and coup missions would be better. At least that would explain why Cerberus wanted to take control of the Citadel.

[RiptideX1090]

 

 

I won't argue with you about Earth's inflated importance; heck, you could say the exact same thing about the human colonies in ME2. We don't have much of a connection with any of these places, which is why I suggested a hypothetical fall of the Citadel as a replacement.

 

Funnily enough, the Citadel Coup mission was originally going to take place around the Thessia Arc, so initially, it WAS supposed to be the darkest hour moment.

 

But I guess the middle of the game had us fighting too many Reapers and not enough Cerberus so they switched that on us and put it in the middle of the story where it makes no damn sense!

[dreamgazer]

ME3 was promoted as the best place to start.

Eh, so are serialized television shows that clearly aren't meant to be started halfway through.

They say it, and sometimes modify the first few episodes, with the intention that you'll get interested and start from the beginning.

[SporkFu]

Funnily enough, the Citadel Coup mission was originally going to take place around the Thessia Arc, so initially, it WAS supposed to be the darkest hour moment.
 
But I guess the middle of the game had us fighting too many Reapers and not enough Cerberus so they switched that on us and put it in the middle of the story where it makes no damn sense!

Yeah, it's funny. I never really noticed Cerberus in the game until the coup attempt... 

[RiptideX1090]

Also, there's another reason Thessia is portrayed as the lowest point for the heroes. In the original script, it was actually supposed to be another Virmire. The Reapers are shelling Thessia from orbit and they bring the whole place down around you in the middle of your fight with Leng. You end up having to limp and crawl to one of your two team mates and you can only save one while the other burns alive. Losing another squadmate in this manner combined with the fact that unlike other worlds the Reapers have invaded, they were utterly obliterating Thessia to quell their biotic population would of actually given what happened there some weight.

 

Instead, we have to care about it because the world is filled with blue space babes, I guess, which, while I DO feel bad for the commandos and pilots who help us getting wiped out, it doesn't resonate in the same way. Especially given how Leng auto-beats you because he's got a bigger plot dick than you.

[dreamgazer]

Yeah, that "Virmire 2.0" sequence was pretty disappointing in the original script, and involved even more railroading.

The destruction of Thessia still has weight, as it's still incredibly significant. The reaction to it was heavy-handed, but the rationale works fine.

[RiptideX1090]

Yeah, that "Virmire 2.0" sequence was pretty disappointing in the original script, and involved even more railroading.

The destruction of Thessia still has weight, as it's still incredibly significant. The reaction to it was heavy-handed, but the rationale works fine.

 

Still has weight, sure, but a feather has weight, too. That doesn't make it necessarily heavy.

[Mordokai]

Instead, we have to care about it because the world is filled with blue space babes, I guess, which, while I DO feel bad for the commandos and pilots who help us getting wiped out, it doesn't resonate in the same way. Especially given how Leng auto-beats you because he's got a bigger plot dick than you.

 

Which, given this is Shepard we're talking about, says a lot.

 

I always assumed loss of Thessia is supposed to resonate harder with players since it's the only world(aside from Earth) that shows(or rather, is supposed to show) the suffering the war confers on the civilians. The fight is going on in or around Armali, or the city of similar importance. There should be bodies of civilians around, maybe even witnessing the death of couple of them... hell, if they really wanted to draw the point home, throw in the death of a child(since, you know, that worked so well for Shepard on Earth ). You don't see much of it, but I always assumed that goes on in the background and that's why Shepard is so distraught after Thessia. On Palaven and Sur'Kesh, all you witness is deaths of soldiers. Seeing Thessia and deaths of civilians is somewhat sombering. Though I guess that could be claimed after Citadel as well...

 

Yeah, apologizing to Tevos after Thessia is handled rather poorly, but I believe Shepard has legitimate reasons to be down in the dumps after Thessia.

[RiptideX1090]

Which, given this is Shepard we're talking about, says a lot.

 

I always assumed loss of Thessia is supposed to resonate harder with players since it's the only world(aside from Earth) that shows(or rather, is supposed to show) the suffering the war confers on the civilians. The fight is going on in or around Armali, or the city of similar importance. There should be bodies of civilians around, maybe even witnessing the death of couple of them... hell, if they really wanted to draw the point home, throw in the death of a child(since, you know, that worked so well for Shepard on Earth ). You don't see much of it, but I always assumed that goes on in the background and that's why Shepard is so distraught after Thessia. On Palaven and Sur'Kesh, all you witness is deaths of soldiers. Seeing Thessia and deaths of civilians is somewhat sombering. Though I guess that could be claimed after Citadel as well...

 

Yeah, apologizing to Tevos after Thessia is handled rather poorly, but I believe Shepard has legitimate reasons to be down in the dumps after Thessia.

 

If I saw another world going up in flames, yes, I would be distraught.

 

I would also be absolutely enraged. Because Shepard is the ONLY PERSON IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE TO FEEL DISTRAUGHT ABOUT THIS.

 

Shepard spent YEARS trying to convince people this was coming, and was ignored at every turn.

 

"Thessia is lost, and that's on me."

 

No! No it isn't!

 

It's on the asari councilor for not listening to you, it's on the asari government for not sharing the Catalyst with you, it's on the Catalyst for being an AI idiot caught in a loop, it's on Cerberus for being a bunch of self-important jerkwads, and it's on the writers for giving Leng Ultra-Mega Deluxe Grade Plot Armor because they couldn't figure out how to tell a meaningful story without it!

 

Apologizing to the asari councilor? We should of been able to call her out on her complete unwillingness to cooperate with us, and her government's selfishly hording intel that could of kept their world from burning. This is not Shepard's fault (and by extension the player's), and I HATE that the writers play it off like it is.

[jtav]

The other reason Thessia doesn't work is the beacon reveal. The devs just justified Thessia's fall as cosmic payback for withholding the beacon. (No the vast majority had nothing to do with it, but there's a long tradition in literature of societies falling because of sins of the rulers). It's hard to be too upset over poetic justice.

[themikefest]

What makes it worst is we can yell at Joker for his joke, but we can't yell at Liara for that stupid line about, the Alliance providing air support. Or Shepard can't even yell at her for yelling at Javik for no reason

[dreamgazer]

Still has weight, sure, but a feather has weight, too. That doesn't make it necessarily heavy.

 

The invasion of Thessia is one of the final roadblocks leading to the galaxy's total annihilation, after the invasion of the other species' homeworlds.

 

Whether you care about the asari or not, it ain't a feather. 

[Quarian Master Race]

I just don't like how when Joker gives his hilarious "less dancers and more commandos" line that my shep only has the options of being whiny or completely off the rails buttmad, instead of being able to laugh like I did the first time I heard it.

Also, I don't want to apologize to either Asari councillor and mope around like an emo kid blaming myself for everything. I want to furiously berate them for pointlessly allowing millions to die and directly causing the situation in the first place, putting all advanced life in the galaxy at huge risk by withholding information for no good reason.

[RiptideX1090]

The invasion of Thessia is one of the final roadblocks leading to the galaxy's total annihilation, after the invasion of the other species' homeworlds.

 

Whether you care about the asari or not, it ain't a feather. 

 

True, but the fact that it's played as the heaviest stone in a field of boulders is a bit irksome.

 

 

What makes it worst is we can yell at Joker for his joke, but we can't yell at Liara for that stupid line about, the Alliance providing air support. Or Shepard can't even yell at her for yelling at Javik for no reason

 

Thank you!

 

I mean, look, I liked that the asari pilots were laying down their lives to get you to the temple. It was one of the only times in the entire game where you were actually fighting alongside the other people in the war, and it was great. You see you're not alone in your fight, and these people, these grunts and in the mud soldiers are willing to do anything to end this war, and are willing to trust you, Commander Shepard, to do it.

 

But why the **** should the Alliance have to spring for air support? We lost our homeworld WEEKS ago and are barely limping by at this point, you're, what, a day or two in to your invasion and you need us to come bail you out? YOUR MILITARY IS BIGGER THAN OURS. YOU HAD MORE TIME TO PREPARE. WE HAVE BEEN CRUMBLING FOR WEEKS AND YOU JUST BARELY ENTERED THE FIGHT.

 

I like you Liara, but sometimes the crap that comes out of your mouth...

[Mordokai]

If I saw another world going up in flames, yes, I would be distraught.

 

I would also be absolutely enraged. Because Shepard is the ONLY PERSON IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY WHO SHOULD NOT HAVE TO FEEL DISTRAUGHT ABOUT THIS.

 

Shepard spent YEARS trying to convince people this was coming, and was ignored at every turn.

 

"Thessia is lost, and that's on me."

 

No! No it isn't!

 

It's on the asari councilor for not listening to you, it's on the asari government for not sharing the Catalyst with you, it's on the Catalyst for being an AI idiot caught in a loop, it's on Cerberus for being a bunch of self-important jerkwads, and it's on the writers for giving Leng Ultra-Mega Deluxe Grade Plot Armor because they couldn't figure out how to tell a meaningful story without it!

 

Apologizing to the asari councilor? We should of been able to call her out on her complete unwillingness to cooperate with us, and her government's selfishly hording intel that could of kept their world from burning. This is not Shepard's fault (and by extension the player's), and I HATE that the writers play it off like it is.

 

There's a lot of things you should be able to do... but you're not Also, just because Shepard warned everybody about what's coming now she's not entitled to feel bad about it? That sounds... weird.

 

Thank you!

 

I mean, look, I liked that the asari pilots were laying down their lives to get you to the temple. It was one of the only times in the entire game where you were actually fighting alongside the other people in the war, and it was great. You see you're not alone in your fight, and these people, these grunts and in the mud soldiers are willing to do anything to end this war, and are willing to trust you, Commander Shepard, to do it.

 

But why the **** should the Alliance have to spring for air support? We lost our homeworld WEEKS ago and are barely limping by at this point, you're, what, a day or two in to your invasion and you need us to come bail you out? YOUR MILITARY IS BIGGER THAN OURS. YOU HAD MORE TIME TO PREPARE. WE HAVE BEEN CRUMBLING FOR WEEKS AND YOU JUST BARELY ENTERED THE FIGHT.

 

I like you Liara, but sometimes the crap that comes out of your mouth...

 

Yeah, this sounds suspiciously familiar to what we've had like bazzilion times before, so I'm just going to pretend I heard nothing.

[Barquiel]

What matters here isn't the amount of screen time Thessia gets, but its position in the story. I've argued before that ME3 is drawing from Blake Snyder's Save the Cat! beat sheet; Thessia is clearly positioned as the "All is Lost/Dark Night of the Soul" moment in the story; it's the low point before the characters make their final push towards victory (such as it is). When you put a moment in the story in that spot, you're implicitly telling your audience that this is the worst thing that has happened to these characters, which is probably why Shepard is so apologetic to Tevos and so pissed off at Joker over his joke about the Asari (nothing similar happens with Palaven, for instance). What I'm saying is that we don't have enough of a connection to Thessia to substantiate this.

 

I won't argue with you about Earth's inflated importance; heck, you could say the exact same thing about the human colonies in ME2. We don't have much of a connection with any of these places, which is why I suggested a hypothetical fall of the Citadel as a replacement.

 

The Fall of Thessia is the quite literally the lowest point in the war for the Citadel factions (three council homeworlds occupied now)...and it was a lot more than just losing Thessia. It was not only a personal defeat by Kai Leng but also defeat on a much larger scale. Without the Crucible, the galactic community might as well just put their weapons down and give in to harvesting. And most of the conversation after Thessia is about how Shep failed to stop Cerberus, and failed to get the Catalyst. And Shepards reaction would have been the same if Palavan or Sur'kesh would have been the third homeworld to fall, with the final component needed for the Crucible stolen by Cerberus on one of those two worlds. Maybe you're right and a mission on the citadel would have been better, or we could visit Thessia as a hub world prior to invasion. But Shepard isn't mourning the Asari more than her own people or the Turians.

[RiptideX1090]

There's a lot of things you should be able to do... but you're not Also, just because Shepard warned everybody about what's coming now she's not entitled to feel bad about it? That sounds... weird.

 

 

Yeah, this sounds suspiciously familiar to what we've had like bazzilion times before, so I'm just going to pretend I heard nothing.

 

Feeling bad about it is one thing, but the way Shepard blames his or herself and mopes about it just grates on me. It felt like the game was accusing ME of not doing enough, when there was nothing that could of been done about it. I think that's why it irks me and so many people so much.

[Barquiel]

Feeling bad about it is one thing, but the way Shepard blames his or herself and mopes about it just grates on me. It felt like the game was accusing ME of not doing enough, when there was nothing that could of been done about it. I think that's why it irks me and so many people so much.

 
The cutscenes were stupid and the player knows the game will end three missions later, but put yourself in Shepards shoes. The mission was a failure. You've just lost to Kai Leng, failed to get the VI...and you have no clue where Kai Leng went. I think it's natural in that situation to ask yourself what you could have done differently.

Add to that that Thessia reminded Shepard of what happened to Earth (Shepards Earth centrism has been widely discussed in various threads) and how the war was already grinding on her mind (dreams) and you get a devastated Shepard. I think Bioware did good in stripping you of the choice of being a happy Shepard there. It wouldn't have made any sense.

[Steelcan]

Damn my phones limited ability to post

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But the only child in the entire Mass Effect Universe is Starbrat... errr. Harbinger.... errr. Ventboy. There are no others. Starbrat is the "ghost of ventboy."

 

Hence since there are no children in the MEU, Ventboy was Harbinger.

 

There should at least have been children on refugee level of the Citadel. But David would say... resources.

 

So children don't exist in the MEU because we never see them. Only Shepard saw the child.

 

Thessia.... this is Liara's "I'm as dumb as Shepard" moment. The writing of this part of the plot was absolutely horrid. Even if you hate Liara, you have to feel sorry for her being forced to say those idiotic lines. Who wrote that script? Keep them away from the next game, please!

[jtav]

Thessia was actually written by John Dombrow, who wrote Tuchanka, Garrus, and Javik. He's left BW.

[Steelcan]

The only person with good dialogue on Thessia was Javik

10/10 won't bring anyone else