376 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

By far.

 

The Quarian Admirals know a war with the Reapers are coming, and yet they choose that exact moment to launch a risky and potentially disastrous invasion of Geth space. What is there to gain from capturing Rannoch, if the Reapers are going to annihilate everyone on that world shortly after you liberate it? That is easily the largest strategic blunder made by any character in the series.

At the time of the invasion it was neither risky nor potentially dangerous, they had no way to predict that the Reapers would intervene, and given their lack of other options, it wsa just about the only viable course of action open to them

[Mordokai]

Koris is the only one out of the bunch with a brain. Xen is completely mad, Shala'Raan is weak, and Han'Gerrel is a great blundering oaf.

 

I agree with you about Xen and Shala'Raan.

 

As for Koris and Han'Gerrel... they seemed to have switched personalities between the second and third game. Make no mistake, I liked Koris of the third game much more than the one of the second one and vice versa with Han'Gerrel, but they hardly seem to be the same person.

[DeathScepter]

because we are indoctrinated by The Reapers. that is why they have different personalities. 

[DeinonSlayer]

By far.

The Quarian Admirals know a war with the Reapers are coming, and yet they choose that exact moment to launch a risky and potentially disastrous invasion of Geth space. What is there to gain from capturing Rannoch, if the Reapers are going to annihilate everyone on that world shortly after you liberate it? That is easily the largest strategic blunder made by any character in the series.

Koris is the only one out of the bunch with a brain. Xen is completely mad, Shala'Raan is weak, and Han'Gerrel is a great blundering oaf.

*sigh* I really didn't want to get drawn into this...

Let's get one thing straight: the Migrant Fleet cannot contribute to the Reaper war effort in any way so long as their cargo holds are physically full with civilian housing. In their state before the Reaper war, they needed to stay close enough to a liveship for daily food deliveries, and were dependent on external infrastructure (which the Reapers quickly went about destroying) for basic survival. Logistics demand that they stay clumped together in a single mass which takes days to traverse a relay in order to keep everyone fed and protected. For their ships to be of use, they have to offload their civilians. That's non-negotiable.

There was no indication that negotiations between the Quarians and Geth would have borne fruit even if Legion hadn't severed comms before the Reapers invaded. Even if you bring Legion to the fleet, he says the Geth aren't willing to negotiate unless certain nebulously-defined conditions are met. Every diplomatic mission sent into Geth space for the last three centuries was shot down on sight and no effort was made by the Geth to distance themselves from the Heretics' actions. Prior to meeting Legion, all the information available to Shepard says the Geth are categorically Reaper allies - simply put, any Shepard who promotes peace talks before meeting Legion is an idiot.

Come ME3, Legion severed comms, putting an end to any notions of peace. The Reapers have invaded the galaxy, tearing down even military superpowers like the Turians. Meanwhile, the Quarians are bobbing along in an aging, less-than-maneuverable fleet, knowing that one Reaper entering the system they're in and taking potshots at the Liveships would spell extinction. They had to act in order to survive. But what options are open to them?

Koris' stated plan was to hide in space, a state in which they cannot contribute to the Reaper war effort in any way ("We don't need a planet! The Migrant Fleet has survived for three centuries!" never mind it had eighty years left, tops, and the Reapers take centuries to sweep for survivors). Koris is a coward whose Reaper contingency plan would have resulted in the extinction of his species.

Gerrel and Xen, for all their faults, did what had to be done to ensure their species' survival while freeing up their fleet for the war effort at the same time. Rannoch is by no means immune to attack (nothing is) - once they've offloaded their civilians there, they're throwing in on the Crucible project like everyone else, depending on its success to save them. Would a peaceful resolution have been preferable? Of course. That was a failure on both sides of the table - Shepard's time would have been far better spent attempting mediation between them than jerking off in an Alliance holding cell.

[Display Name Owner]

No, why would they? The Quarians we meet didn't start the war, they just inherited the situation. Plus if you ask me, trying to shut down the Geth wasn't wrong anyway, the Quarians didn't know what they might turn into. As it is a faction of them did in fact go all Skynet, didn't they?

 

I like the Geth (their ME2 incarnation anyway...) but I'd always pick Quarians over them. For one thing, there's no way to safeguard against what the Geth might turn into, and moreover, the Geth don't feel fear or pain or grief, so to me killing them is the nicer, safer choice.

[dreamgazer]

*sigh* I really didn't want to get drawn into this...

 

Growth is overrated.

 

[ImaginaryMatter]

More incompetent than Hackett or Anderson?

Let's ease up a bit here.

 

Hackett some how managed to keep the Crucible from Cerberus (which knows everything else), get the thing build with supply lines cut' mining facilities gone, and infrastructure destroyed; launch the greatest trans relay assault ever, safely escort and dock the Crucible, and managed to continually reinforce and defend multiple engagements across the galaxy with ground troops.

 

I think he may be the smartest man in the galaxy.

[Quarian Master Race]

By far.

 

The Quarian Admirals know a war with the Reapers are coming, and yet they choose that exact moment to launch a risky and potentially disastrous invasion of Geth space. What is there to gain from capturing Rannoch, if the Reapers are going to annihilate everyone on that world shortly after you liberate it? That is easily the largest strategic blunder made by any character in the series. 

 

Koris is the only one out of the bunch with a brain. Xen is completely mad, Shala'Raan is weak, and Han'Gerrel is a great blundering oaf.

I would respond to this point but Deinon has already ninja'd essentially every point I would have made. Koris's plan to drift around in space aimlessly until the reapers show up and finish doing to the quarians what the geth started 300 years ago is idiotic and self serving. Your point about Gerrel is fine if you are talking about that pantomime abomination that they changed his character to in the interest of serving the ham fisted quarian=mean, geth=innocent story they shove down your throat, but what is wrong with Xen? She doesn't even want to exterminate the geth. Also, what is your basis for Raan being weak? That she moved her patrol fleets to cover pantomime Gerrel's stupid blind charge to the Dreadnought out of military necessity and concern for losing more of her people?

When you actually come to think of it, the quarians are pretty much the only species that has Shepard's back almost unconditionally when it comes to the Reapers. They never doubt your assertions, and the errand that they do ask you for (helping retake Rannoch) is of military necessity in order to offload their civilians from the fleet so that they may even participate without potentially dooming themselves to extinction or automatically losing half their combat effectiveness by not employing the armed liveships.

Compare that to the council races sticking their fingers in their ears until hell is at their doorstep. Then there are the Krogan, who believe you about the Reapers from the start, but want you to do their laundry first by curing the genophage immediately, which is of no short term military necessity whatsoever and wastes time while people are dying and military assets are being lost.

[Mordokai]

Also, what is your basis for Raan being weak?

 

"Raan gave provisional support."

 

She was too weak to oppose Gerrel and Xen, where she didn't really believe their plan was the right one. Would she side with Koris and Tali, the war could have been avoided.

 

I blame all the quarian casualties on her, more so than on Gerrel and Xen. And I blame them plenty.

[Steelcan]

"Raan gave provisional support."

 

She was too weak to oppose Gerrel and Xen, where she didn't really believe their plan was the right one. Would she side with Koris and Tali, the war could have been avoided.

 

I blame all the quarian casualties on her, more so than on Gerrel and Xen. And I blame them plenty.

I blame the quarian casualties on the ones shooting at them, but that's crazy talk

[Sir DeLoria]

I agree. I think Mac Walters is a pretty good character writer, but plots aren't his strong field. Or Patrick Weekes. He wrote two of my favorite squadmates in ME (Mordin and Kasumi), but also my least favorite favorite character in the series (Tali).

Tali wasn't badly written however, you just don't like her(for whatever reason).

I dislike Liara, but she's not badly written (mostly).

[Quarian Master Race]

Tali wasn't badly written however, you just don't like her(for whatever reason).

I dislike Liara, but she's not badly written (mostly).

Liara is pretty badly written when you consider the huge changes to the character from quiet and naive archeologist in ME1 to shady criminal underworld informant ME2 in order to make her darker. Where did she even acquire the skillset in 2 years to run an intelligence network in the first place, as it is about as far removed from studying ruins as a job can be. It is also never really explained why she can handle a gun or has any knowlege of combat biotics. They could have easily thrown in a backstory that included 20 years in the commandos or something, but they didn't. I can't even comment on character development with her because her 3 iterations are 3 completely different individuals with the same face and voice.

She's basically the best example of a Mary Sue character of any of your squadmates throughout the 3 games.

Tali is one of the few characters along with the VS that stays reasonably consistent in morality, personality and general behavior. If you don't like her in the first game, you won't like her in the others and vice versa. And she actually has some character development in relation to her views on the geth if you wake Legion and make peace in the Rannoch arc. She doesn't go from a mechanic to a mercenary or some stupidshit like a lot of the ME1 characters do. Not poorly written at all.

[Barquiel]

"Raan gave provisional support."
 
She was too weak to oppose Gerrel and Xen, where she didn't really believe their plan was the right one. Would she side with Koris and Tali, the war could have been avoided.
 
I blame all the quarian casualties on her, more so than on Gerrel and Xen. And I blame them plenty.

Raan is basically like Elthina in Dragon Age 2. They both had a good deal of authority that they didn't use. Elthina didn't even try to stop Meredith. Raan knows Gerrel and Xen are crazy, but she does nothing to stop them either.

[Mordokai]

I blame the quarian casualties on the ones shooting at them, but that's crazy talk

 

Which could have been avoided if Raan was less complacent/incompetent/coward/whathaveyou.

[Quarian Master Race]

"Raan gave provisional support."

 

She was too weak to oppose Gerrel and Xen, where she didn't really believe their plan was the right one. Would she side with Koris and Tali, the war could have been avoided.

 

I blame all the quarian casualties on her, more so than on Gerrel and Xen. And I blame them plenty.

If you prescribe to the view that the war was unnessasary, which, given the geth consensus's unwillingness to negotiate in any more meaningful way than having Legion talk to Tali a little bit, combined with the necessity of the quarians requiring Rannoch to offload civilians in order to contribute to the war effort, it totally was necessary. Raan made the right desicion. Koris's reasons were downright stupid, and Tali was just being her usual naive self either way. (she is either skeptical of quarian chances for victory or holding out hope for negotiations, depending on whether legion is around or not). There was no time to wait around and negotiate while the Reapers were obliterating everything in sight. Xen, Gerrel, and Raan knew what needed to be done. Force the geth to cooperate or get rid of their obstruction to defeating the real enemy.

And they would have succeeded, had the geth not got in bed with the enemy out of what can only be spite.

[ImaginaryMatter]

My only real problem with Tali's character development is her promotion to Admiral. Even that though feels like a bi-product of the weird shakeup the Quarian admiralty board went through between ME2 and ME3.

[DeinonSlayer]

Which could have been avoided if Raan was less complacent/incompetent/coward/whathaveyou.

What are their alternatives? Besides hiding in space and contributing frak-all to the Reaper war effort, fruitlessly pinging the Geth to open comms once again, or pleading to the same Council which wanted nothing more from them but to crawl off to some dark corner of the galaxy to die for the last three centuries?

If such things could be considered funny, the Council offered no aid against the Geth at the time of the uprising/genocide of 99% of the Quarian species, mobilized dreadnoughts to bombard them off of at least one world they later tried to colonize, made no effort to find a place for them to settle down - but when the Reapers showed up, immediately in your Normandy inbox there's an editorial by a Turian contributor to ANN grousing about "Where are the Quarians? Don't they know we need their help, the greedy bastards?!" I can see how the idea of taking off for deep space and telling the Council races to get bent would have a certain appeal to them, but it isn't survivable.

My only real problem with Tali's character development is her promotion to Admiral. Even that though feels like a bi-product of the weird shakeup the Quarian admiralty board went through between ME2 and ME3.

To me, the biggest problem with her character as written in ME3 was her wholly out-of-character passivity. Especially just standing there if you opt to condemn her species to extinction. We are talking about the woman who was introduced to us by throwing a grenade at some sleazebag who tried to feel her up.

[Quarian Master Race]

My only real problem with Tali's character development is her promotion to Admiral. Even that though feels like a bi-product of the weird shakeup the Quarian admiralty board went through between ME2 and ME3.

It only makes sense in the context of the quarians having such a tiny population, and Tali being pretty much the only one with actual experience and knowlege about Reapers via her time with Shepard. It's not like the other 4 seem to take her opinions very seriously anyway.

 

[Quarian Master Race]

To me, the biggest problem with her character as written in ME3 was her wholly out-of-character passivity. Especially just standing there if you opt to condemn her species to extinction. We are talking about the woman who was introduced to us by throwing a grenade at some sleazebag who tried to feel her up.

That actually ticked me off a little too. ME1-2 Tali would have tried to stab/ shotgun Legion/VI and forced you to take an interrupt instead of becoming An Hero, but I don't notice it anywhere else in her comments or actions during the game except for the whining about her new responsibilities (not entirely unreasonble given she is completely unqualified to be an admiral and knows it). If anything, her language is saltier than earlier games in some places.

[Livi14]

Tali was badly written in ME1. I knew about Quarians, their culture and politics, but not too much about Tali herself. I still don't like her in ME2 and ME3, but I think the writing improved - apart from her nonsensical romance arc.

I think character interactions were something that steadily improved as the series progressed, except maybe Ashley's writing.

[Steelcan]

Which could have been avoided if Raan was less complacent/incompetent/coward/whathaveyou.

Or if the geth hadn't gone to the reapers, or if the Reapers didn't exist in the first place

[themikefest]

The Geth are no different than the Heretics that followed Sovereign by aligning themselves with the reapers. Stupid machines.

[Mordokai]

If you prescribe to the view that the war was unnessasary, which, given the geth consensus's unwillingness to negotiate in any more meaningful way than having Legion talk to Tali a little bit, combined with the necessity of the quarians requiring Rannoch to offload civilians in order to contribute to the war effort, it totally was necessary. Raan made the right desicion. Koris's reasons were downright stupid, and Tali was just being her usual naive self either way. (she is either skeptical of quarian chances for victory or holding out hope for negotiations, depending on whether legion is around or not). There was no time to wait around and negotiate while the Reapers were obliterating everything in sight. Xen, Gerrel, and Raan knew what needed to be done. Force the geth to cooperate or get rid of their obstruction to defeating the real enemy.

And they would have succeeded, had the geth not got in bed with the enemy out of what can only be spite.

 

That's not what "provisional" stands for.

 

What are their alternatives? Besides hiding in space and contributing frak-all to the Reaper war effort, fruitlessly pinging the Geth to open comms once again, or pleading to the same Council which wanted nothing more from them but to crawl off to some dark corner of the galaxy to die for the last three centuries?

If such things could be considered funny, the Council offered no aid against the Geth at the time of the uprising/genocide of 99% of the Quarian species, mobilized dreadnoughts to bombard them off of at least one world they later tried to colonize, made no effort to find a place for them to settle down - but when the Reapers showed up, immediately in your Normandy inbox there's an editorial by a Turian contributor to ANN grousing about "Where are the Quarians? Don't they know we need their help, the greedy bastards?!" I can see how the idea of taking off for deep space and telling the Council races to get bent has a certain appeal, but it isn't survivable.

 

So, now you're subscribing to "end justify the means"? That sounds more Massively than Deinon.

 

Or if the geth hadn't gone to the reapers, or if the Reapers didn't exist in the first place

 

Or we might as well start watching MLP.

[DeinonSlayer]

"Ends justify the means?" Not sure how that's relevant to what I posted. I wouldn't really even call Massively's methods "ends justify the means" so much as "we do what we must because we can."

[De1ta0m3ga]

The Geth are no different than the Heretics that followed Sovereign by aligning themselves with the reapers. Stupid machines.

 

To be fair, if humanity were about to be destroyed, and a race more powerful than anyone/thing in the known galaxy offered their assistance, resulting in the prevention of our extinction, I think a lot of people would pay any price, even their free will.  Hell, I think I would, especially if it was that or face the loss of 10,000 years of history and culture, in addition to the loss of billions of people.  At least then I' have solace in the fact that my species is still around.  Eh, that's my take on the Geth's perspective on the situation.