376 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

To be fair, if humanity were about to be destroyed, and a race more powerful than anyone/thing in the known galaxy offered their assistance, resulting in the prevention of our extinction, I think a lot of people would pay any price, even their free will.  Hell, I think I would, especially if it was that or face the loss of 10,000 years of history and culture, in addition to the loss of billions of people.  At least then I' have solace in the fact that my species is still around.  Eh, that's my take on the Geth's perspective on the situation.  

Well the reapers weren't preventing the Geth from extinction, they were just using the machines to do their dirty work. For me, I would not give up my free will for slavery. I have no use for that crap and would force whoever/whatever to kill me

[Quarian Master Race]

To be fair, if humanity were about to be destroyed, and a race more powerful than anyone/thing in the known galaxy offered their assistance, resulting in the prevention of our extinction, I think a lot of people would pay any price, even their free will.  Hell, I think I would, especially if it was that or face the loss of 10,000 years of history and culture, in addition to the loss of billions of people.  At least then I' have solace in the fact that my species is still around.  Eh, that's my take on the Geth's perspective on the situation.  

except only one of the 4 members of the admiralty board wants to outright destroy the Geth. Tali and Koris are both opposed completely. Xen's goal is to bring the geth back under quarian control, which presumably cannot be done if they are exterminated. Raan just wants the return of her people to their homeworld and her views on what to do with the geth are not really elaborated upon, but Gerrel's actions during the war have placed them at odds and she seems cautions but ultimately understanding with the geth judging by how she speaks to Legion, unlike Gerrel's blind hatred.  She would probably be more inclined to support Xen's goals.

More than likely, if the geth didn't decide to stubbornly continue the fight to the last platform and runtime, they could have surrendered to the quarians without becoming thralls of the Reapers and helping to destroy all advanced life in the galaxy, including themselves.  The decision to ally on the basis of survival is utterly retarded. They will certainly be annihilated later, as opposed to possibly being annihilated now if Gerrel has his way over the other 4 admirals. Let's not forget that the main reason that the quarians were winning the war was Xen's superweapon, which she presumably could have withheld if Gerrel started stepping out of line when victory was in sight.

[justafan]

To be fair, if humanity were about to be destroyed, and a race more powerful than anyone/thing in the known galaxy offered their assistance, resulting in the prevention of our extinction, I think a lot of people would pay any price, even their free will.  Hell, I think I would, especially if it was that or face the loss of 10,000 years of history and culture, in addition to the loss of billions of people.  At least then I' have solace in the fact that my species is still around.  Eh, that's my take on the Geth's perspective on the situation.  

 

I don't know.  Go play the mission "I remember me" and hear all that Talitha has to say.  Then I would ask you, if humanity was on the brink of extinction, would you choose enslavement or would you fight to the bitter end and die as yourself?

[Han Shot First]

*sigh* I really didn't want to get drawn into this...

Let's get one thing straight: the Migrant Fleet cannot contribute to the Reaper war effort in any way so long as their cargo holds are physically full with civilian housing. In their state before the Reaper war, they needed to stay close enough to a liveship for daily food deliveries, and were dependent on external infrastructure (which the Reapers quickly went about destroying) for basic survival. Logistics demand that they stay clumped together in a single mass which takes days to traverse a relay in order to keep everyone fed and protected. For their ships to be of use, they have to offload their civilians. That's non-negotiable.
 

 

There was little any faction could do against the Reapers other than buy time for the Crucible to be deployed. Any offensive against the Reapers, short of deploying the Crucible, was ultimately doomed to failure in the long term. Even the reinforcement of Palaven was at best temporary measure, with the Council species unable to hold the planet indefinitely. Time was an ally of the Reapers. With that as the backdrop logistics should not have been a major concern for the Quarians, as the Migrant Fleet would have been wasted if it were thrown against the Reapers in various offensive actions. The best use for the Migrant Fleet would be to hold them in reserve until the Crucible was ready to be deployed.

 

As a reserve the Migrant Fleet has the perfect setup as they aren't as dependent as other species on settled planets that the Reapers could seize. Fuel (HE3) can be skimmed from Gas Giants and water can be obtained from cracking uninhabited ice dwarfs. Food of course is all grown within the Live Ships.

 

The best course of action for the Quarians in keeping their civilians safe would be to keep them hidden in uninhabited systems, aboard the Migrant Fleet. Seizing Rannoch is ultimately foolish as it both ties the fleet down in now having to protect that planet against Geth or the Reapers, and puts the civilians directly in the path of a Reaper invasion. Had the Quarians settled Rannoch, the planet would have eventually shared the fates of Khar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, Irune, and Thessia. It gives the Reapers a target to attack.

 

There was no indication that negotiations between the Quarians and Geth would have borne fruit even if Legion hadn't severed comms before the Reapers invaded. Even if you bring Legion to the fleet, he says the Geth aren't willing to negotiate unless certain nebulously-defined conditions are met. Every diplomatic mission sent into Geth space for the last three centuries was shot down on sight and no effort was made by the Geth to distance themselves from the Heretics' actions. Prior to meeting Legion, all the information available to Shepard says the Geth are categorically Reaper allies - simply put, any Shepard who promotes peace talks before meeting Legion is an idiot.

Come ME3, Legion severed comms, putting an end to any notions of peace. The Reapers have invaded the galaxy, tearing down even military superpowers like the Turians. Meanwhile, the Quarians are bobbing along in an aging, less-than-maneuverable fleet, knowing that one Reaper entering the system they're in and taking potshots at the Liveships would spell extinction. They had to act in order to survive. But what options are open to them?
 

 

My problem with the Quarian Admirals isn't necessarily that they decided to go to war with the Geth. That peace was possible with the Geth requires meta knowledge that they didn't have, and it wasn't an unreasonable assumption for them to view the Geth as perpetually hostile. My issue with them is they couldn't have possibly chose a worse time to launch an invasion of their homeworld. The Quarians knew the Reapers were coming. They were the one faction (other than the Geth) who didn't doubt Shepard's claims. And yet instead of putting their war plans on the back burner they continue full speed ahead with Plan A, despite the Reapers invading Khar'Shan and Earth and Palaven. The Geth War was a colossal strategic blunder that threatened to bog their fleet down in a costly and potentially disastrous side show over Rannoch, when it could least be afforded.

 

 

 

Koris' stated plan was to hide in space, a state in which they cannot contribute to the Reaper war effort in any way ("We don't need a planet! The Migrant Fleet has survived for three centuries!" never mind it had eighty years left, tops, and the Reapers take centuries to sweep for survivors). Koris is a coward whose Reaper contingency plan would have resulted in the extinction of his species.

Gerrel and Xen, for all their faults, did what had to be done to ensure their species' survival while freeing up their fleet for the war effort at the same time. Rannoch is by no means immune to attack (nothing is) - once they've offloaded their civilians there, they're throwing in on the Crucible project like everyone else, depending on its success to save them. Would a peaceful resolution have been preferable? Of course. That was a failure on both sides of the table - Shepard's time would have been far better spent attempting mediation between them than jerking off in an Alliance holding cell.

 

Koris favored peace with the Geth, but he was no coward. His rescue mission illustrates that, where he'll suggest Shepard leave him to die and instead rescue his downed crewmen. I do agree that Koris is wrong about the long term viability of the Migrant Fleet, but he is absolutely right in seeking to avoid war with the Geth particularly while the Reaper War is raging. In that he was the only Quarian admiral (other than perhaps Tali, who was treated like a figurehead) to show any sense.

 

Han'Gerrel and Xen nearly blundered into destroying their own people, and Shala'Raan failed to help Koris avoid war despite not being on board with Han'Gerrel's plan. If any of the admirals was a coward, I think Shala'Raan best fits that bill. Perhaps not cowardice in the traditional sense, but she was a moral coward. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Well, the Quarians needed a planet for their civilians to be on for the tremendous logistical advantage their fleet would provide. I kinda feel the MF would be best used a bit like the Katana Fleet was in Star Wars; the allied forces take the civilian ships and staff them with their own numbers. 

Maybe they could've offered their fleet in exchange for asylum on Sur'Kesh during the war. 

But since the game needed the PC to resolve the conflict, they had to try for Rannoch instead. 

[Steelcan]

Sur Kesh wouldn't have been able to feed them

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Sur Kesh wouldn't have been able to feed them

Their liveships can come with them. The effectiveness of 50,000 extra ships for hauling cargo, supplies, and troops isn't going to all that poorly effected by the loss. 

And the Turians could feed the soldiers fighting the war. 

[Steelcan]

Their liveships can come with them. The effectiveness of 50,000 extra ships for hauling cargo, supplies, and troops isn't going to all that poorly effected by the loss. 
And the Turians could feed the soldiers fighting the war.

. Hmm perhaps

But the Salarians are rather determined to keep a low profile during the war, in addition to their politicians isolationism

[Quarian Master Race]

^all that assuming that the quarians should trust the fate of their civilians to species' that have treated them as vagrants/ thieves for 300 years and threatened to bomb them off of a planet they tried to re-settle on. Somehow, I would be a little concerned that they don't have my people's health and wellbeing as a top priority, especially in wartime.

handing over the ships of the Migrant Fleet to be staffed by erstwhile "allies" is even less responsible. They are the only barganing chip the quarians have, and they are the only reason that the galaxy at large is suddenly interested in not shitting on their species as they have been perfectly content to do until the Reapers arrive
 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

. Hmm perhaps

But the Salarians are rather determined to keep a low profile during the war, in addition to their politicians isolationism

It's 17 million Quarians, minus the Heavy fleet. It wouldn't bee too much of a hassle. 

The Salarians weren't determined to keep a low profile and hide, they were just defending their own space instead of charging to break the siege at Palaven. 

 

^all that assuming that the quarians should trust the fate of their civilians to species' that have treated them as vagrants/ thieves for 300 years and threatened to bomb them off of a planet they tried to re-settle on. Somehow, I would be a little concerned that they don't have my people's health and wellbeing as a top priority, especially in wartime.

handing over the ships of the Migrant Fleet to be staffed by erstwhile "allies" is even less responsible. They are the only barganing chip the quarians have, and they are the only reason that the galaxy at large is suddenly interested in not shitting on their species as they have been perfectly content to do until the Reapers arrive
 

But the Quarians should totally charge at a race with a navy rivaling the Turians'. That is a completely responsible decision to make. There is no way that the Quarians, a race completely and totally dependent on their ships, could face extinction by engaging in a massive naval engagement with a stronger force. 

Nope. That was a great decision. 

[justafan]

 

 

But the Quarians should totally charge at a race with a navy rivaling the Turians'. That is a completely responsible decision to make. There is no way that the Quarians, a race completely and totally dependent on their ships, could face extinction by engaging in a massive naval engagement with a stronger force. 

Nope. That was a great decision. 

 

"It's totally not an idiotic idea to charge at a numerically and technologically superior force, relying solely on a super weapon to defeat your enemy in the skies above your home world before your entire species is rendered extinct by said force" - Admiral Hackett

[Quarian Master Race]

It's 17 million Quarians, minus the Heavy fleet. It wouldn't bee too much of a hassle. 

The Salarians weren't determined to keep a low profile and hide, they were just defending their own space instead of charging to break the siege at Palaven. 

 

But the Quarians should totally charge at a race with a navy rivaling the Turians'. That is a completely responsible decision to make. There is no way that the Quarians, a race completely and totally dependent on their ships, could face extinction by engaging in a massive naval engagement with a stronger force. 

Nope. That was a great decision. 

Were the quarians not easily winning until the geth decided to illogically go full retard and willingly become reaper puppets in complete defiance of everything known about their philosophy and goals, simply in order to "survive" temporarily longer?

Tell me how bad of a decision it was again.

Certainly not as bad as handing over the only thing that the rest of the galaxy wants from you while simultaneously giving them complete power over the fate of your entire species, which they have already shown at best callous indifference towards and at worst utter disdain and racist loathing.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

"It's totally not an idiotic idea to charge at a numerically and technologically superior force, relying solely on a super weapon to defeat your enemy in the skies above your home world before your entire species is rendered extinct by said force" - Admiral Hackett

Hackett's also a complete idiot. The only competent leaders people in the galaxy are the Turian admirals and generals. 

 

Were the quarians not easily winning until the geth decided to illogically go full retard and willingly become reaper puppets in complete defiance of everything known about their philosophy and goals, simply in order to "survive" temporarily longer?

Tell me how bad of a decision it was again.

Certainly not as bad as handing over the only thing that the rest of the galaxy wants from you while simultaneously giving them complete power over the fate of your entire species, which they have already shown at best callous indifference towards and at worst utter disdain and racist loathing.

The Rannoch arc is ****, or course. But to, once again, bet your entire race's existence on a flash bang that did get counteracted is still insanely idiotic. 

Oh yes. Because everyone is just going to twirl their mustache and say "Well, we just survived an attempt at genocide. Time to commit some genocide. For the lolses." People don't think that way. Are the Salarians going to enslave them? What is the worst realistic scenario? 

Besides, the Quarians dug their own hole, for by creating, and then trying, and failing, to destroy them. 

[Quarian Master Race]

Hackett's also a complete idiot. The only competent leaders people in the galaxy are the Turian admirals and generals. 

 

The Rannoch arc is ****, or course. But to, once again, bet your entire race's existence on a flash bang that did get counteracted is still insanely idiotic. 

Oh yes. Because everyone is just going to twirl their mustache and say "Well, we just survived an attempt at genocide. Time to commit some genocide. For the lolses." People don't think that way. Are the Salarians going to enslave them? What is the worst realistic scenario? 

Besides, the Quarians dug their own hole, for by creating, and then trying, and failing, to destroy them. 

No, it isn't. It was a weapon that was known to be effective against geth, that only stopped working because the geth made a decision so retarded that no one with a brain would have forseen it as a real contingency plan taken by a race of logical, calculating machines. It's the equivalent of calling the US dumb for using atomic weapons on Japan because Japan could have secretly made an alliance with technologically advanced aliens bent on destroying earth, by allowing themselves to be irreversibly turned into radiation proof zombies until everyone else is dead, wherupon they would be killed by said aliens anyway. That analogy sounds ridiculous because it is difficult to come up with an analogy that doesn't sound as retarded as giving up your free will to be used as a slave to exterminate other living things AND being killed instead of just being killed.

Given all the known variables, it was a good decision that without geth illogic/bad writing (whichever you prefer) would have resulted in an easy quarian victory via destruction or reacquired control of the geth.

I never mentioned genocide, (though I could as the council races basically threatened to do that when the quarians tried to resettle on a different world, the name of which escapes me right now). The other races just stood around as the quarians were exterminated  have treated them like space bums for 300 years for no apparent reason except casual racism. Are you really that naive?

I would more expect them to continue this attitude and simply neglect the quarians as they always have. To expect them to suddenly care about their wellbeing after they have handed over control of the one thing the council needs from them is optimistic at best, especially during wartime when they would have more pressing concerns. More than likely, they would be given inadequate refugee tent villages if anything at all, which for a species such as the quarians, with their medical and nutritional needs, would be disastrous.

It's academic anyway though, as the situation you've described is utterly absurd and no one on the admiralty board would ever agree to it. No one who has any political power would ever agree to such a one sided arrangement that has them lose everything they have while gaining nothing, unless they didn't understand the terms. For comparison at least the Amerindians got beads out of their horrible arrangments with european settlers. The quarians would have their fleet stolen and then likely all die of avoidable illnesses and malnutrition, with no guarantee that that their ships would be taken care of or be given back to them by the races that previously despised them, even if they survived.

I just don't even know how you thought that idea was even feasible.

 

[Obadiah]

The Geth decision to ally with the Reapers sounds pretty logical to me given their predicament. That's part of the reason Organics and Synthetics are different in MEU. Synthetics do not have "red lines", so to speak, that we Organics do. There are options they do not take off the table.

[Quarian Master Race]

The Geth decision to ally with the Reapers sounds pretty logical to me given their predicament. That's part of the reason Organics and Synthetics are different in MEU. Synthetics do not have "red lines", so to speak, that we Organics do. There are options they do not take off the table.

Weighing possible death or enslavement at the hands of the quarians vs certain enslavement  by the reapers followed by certain death after the geth have helped kill everything else in the galaxy?

No, the decision wasn't even a little logical. The only purpose it served was to introduce the "reaper code" nonsense facilitating the "geth are people too" storyline that was shoved down the throat of the player instead of allowing them to think for themself. This is despite the fact that ME2 Legion states that the geth wish to build their own future independent from others, yet he immediately gobbles up the unknown reaper code "upgrades" the second they are avaliable with no regrets

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

No, it isn't. It was a weapon that was known to be effective against geth, that only stopped working because the geth made a decision so retarded that no one with a brain would have forseen it as a real contingency plan taken by a race of logical, calculating machines. It's the equivalent of calling the US dumb for using atomic weapons on Japan because Japan could have secretly made an alliance with technologically advanced aliens bent on destroying earth, by allowing themselves to be irreversibly turned into radiation proof zombies until everyone else is dead, wherupon they would be killed by said aliens anyway. That analogy sounds ridiculous because it is difficult to come up with an analogy that doesn't sound as retarded as giving up your free will to be used as a slave to exterminate other living things AND being killed instead of just being killed.

Given all the known variables, it was a good decision that without geth illogic/bad writing (whichever you prefer) would have resulted in an easy quarian victory via destruction or reacquired control of the geth.

I never mentioned genocide, (though I could as the council races basically threatened to do that when the quarians tried to resettle on a different world, the name of which escapes me right now). The other races just stood around as the quarians were exterminated  have treated them like space bums for 300 years for no apparent reason except casual racism. Are you really that naive?

I would more expect them to continue this attitude and simply neglect the quarians as they always have. To expect them to suddenly care about their wellbeing after they have handed over control of the one thing the council needs from them is optimistic at best, especially during wartime when they would have more pressing concerns. More than likely, they would be given inadequate refugee tent villages if anything at all, which for a species such as the quarians, with their medical and nutritional needs, would be disastrous.

It's academic anyway though, as the situation you've described is utterly absurd and no one on the admiralty board would ever agree to it. No one who has any political power would ever agree to such a one sided arrangement that has them lose everything they have while gaining nothing, unless they didn't understand the terms. For comparison at least the Amerindians got beads out of their horrible arrangments with european settlers. The quarians would have their fleet stolen and then likely all die of avoidable illnesses and malnutrition, with no guarantee that that their ships would be taken care of or be given back to them by the races that previously despised them, even if they survived.

I just don't even know how you thought that idea was even feasible. 

The races threatened destroying their settlements when they tried to move in on a world previously claimed by Citadel organizations. They tried to take over a planet that was in the Citadel's territory. The Quarians caused their own problem. Would should anyone else have to die for them? And why should they have to give their own territory to the Quarians? The Quarians are lucky their fleet is allowed to approach Citadel space, seeing as they're more or less invading it whenever they do. 

Or they could get, you know, those high-quality prefabs that exist on every colony visited, and seeing as Quarians have those things called suits, enviromental issues don't really matter to them. They don't have abnormal medical needs in their suits, and they aren't getting shot at. 

They get a safe place for their civilians while their ships go off to fight an existential threat in the form of the Reapers. They don't have to fight a war against a superior force to do it. And they still have their liveships. Which is what feeds them anyway. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Now we're getting into the spirit of the debate!

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Now we're getting into the spirit of the debate!

Well, I must point out how I don't think the Geth deserve to live any more than the Quarians, and that both sides are in the wrong. 

[Obadiah]

Weighing possible death or enslavement at the hands of the quarians vs certain enslavement  by the reapers followed by certain death after the geth have helped kill everything else in the galaxy?

No, the decision wasn't even a little logical. The only purpose it served was to introduce the "reaper code" nonsense facilitating the "geth are people too" storyline that was shoved down the throat of the player instead of allowing them to think for themself. This is despite the fact that ME2 Legion states that the geth wish to build their own future independent from others, yet he immediately gobbles up the unknown reaper code "upgrades" the second they are avaliable with no regrets

The decision was logical. The Reaper offer of assistance probably was not one of certain destruction, even if that may have been the outcome - and it is unclear if the Geth would have been satisfied with surviving while uploaded as part of a Reaper. The Quarians, on the other hand, were actually in the process of wiping out the Geth. Therefore the Geth made a logical decision to ally with the Reapers that would help defend them.

You may think of that choice as illogical, but I'm sure the Geth would rather have survived long enough to deal with the subsequent Reaper threat.

[Quarian Master Race]

The races threatened destroying their settlements when they tried to move in on a world previously claimed by Citadel organizations. They tried to take over a planet that was in the Citadel's territory. The Quarians caused their own problem. Would should anyone else have to die for them? And why should they have to give their own territory to the Quarians? The Quarians are lucky their fleet is allowed to approach Citadel space, seeing as they're more or less invading it whenever they do. 

Or they could get, you know, those high-quality prefabs that exist on every colony visited, and seeing as Quarians have those things called suits, enviromental issues don't really matter to them. They don't have abnormal medical needs in their suits, and they aren't getting shot at. 

They get a safe place for their civilians while their ships go off to fight an existential threat in the form of the Reapers. They don't have to fight a war against a superior force to do it. And they still have their liveships. Which is what feeds them anyway. 

So we are at least admitting now that the council has previously treated the quarians as an enemy combatant for having the guile to contest colonization rights to a planet they weren't even utilizing, in a non belligerent manner (something other species do quite frequently), and their response was to send a dreadnought after them. Good. Thank you for proving my point as to why the quarians should be suspicious of dropping their civilians off in the care of for what all they know is an enemy that has previously shown nothing but belligerence and racism towards them, and then giving them control of their ships to boot.

That is a gross oversimplification and you either lack knowlege of the lore or are intentionally taking the ******. Quarians not only need specialized facilities such as clean rooms for medical procedures (unless you assume that all 17million of them are healthy all the time and never have any children), they need specially purified water and dextro-protein food that requires specialized facilities to produce as well, which would also need to be constructed on Sur'Kesh. One of the practical reasons employers are reluctant to hire quarians because their needs are so specialized and expensive. The suits are not magic contrary to your blanket assertion, and would presumably require unique components for repair as well, further complicating the problem Cookie cutter prefabs would absolutely not work.

This also all completely ignores the fact that Sur'Kesh is not immune to Reaper invasion anyway, and is in fact a high priority target with 11 billion inhabitants of one of the 3 most powerful races in the galaxy. The Reapers would presumably find it much more attractive than Rannoch with a mere 17 million inhabitants. So the quarians there would be in no way "safe" compared to their own homeworld if the war were to be any longer than a few weeks. Before the reaper intervention, the geth were in no way a "superior force" and the offensive resulted in tiny casualties for the quarians, according to the codex. It was absolutely the best option available to the quarians at the time. Also, how are the liveships off fighting the reapers in the war feeding the civilians on Sur'Kesh? Have the quarians mastered quantam entanglement dextro burrito teleporters or something? I'm confused by your inane logic.



 

[SporkFu]

To be fair, if humanity were about to be destroyed, and a race more powerful than anyone/thing in the known galaxy offered their assistance, resulting in the prevention of our extinction, I think a lot of people would pay any price, even their free will.  Hell, I think I would, especially if it was that or face the loss of 10,000 years of history and culture, in addition to the loss of billions of people.  At least then I' have solace in the fact that my species is still around.  Eh, that's my take on the Geth's perspective on the situation.  

Saren? Is that you? 

 

Commander Shepard: Together we can stop Sovereign. We don't have to submit to the Reapers. We can beat them! 

 

Saren Arterius: I no longer believe that Shepard. The visions cannot be denied. The Reapers are too powerful. The only hope of survival is to join with them. Sovereign is a machine. It thinks like a machine. If I can prove my value, I become a resource, worth maintaining. There is no other logical conclusion. 

 

Commander Shepard: You were a Spectre. You swore to protect the galaxy. Then you broke that vow to save yourself. 

 

Saren Arterius: I'm not doing this for myself. Don't you see, Sovereign will succeed. It is inevitable. My way is the only way any of us will survive. I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed. But you would undo my work. You would doom our entire civilization to complete annihilation, and for that, you must die. 

 

Saren Arterius: Is submission not preferable to extinction?

 

[Farangbaa]

Enslavement is preferable to extinction.

 

Enslavement can be turned back, extinction not

[SporkFu]

Enslavement is preferable to extinction.

Enslavement can be turned back, extinction not

How many examples of resisting indoctrination are we shown in the trilogy? Didn't work out so well for Saren, or Benezia, or TIM. Could be an argument for Shiala, but she's not really in the best of shape either.

[Excella Gionne]

 

Saren? Is that you? 

 

Commander Shepard: Together we can stop Sovereign. We don't have to submit to the Reapers. We can beat them! 

 

Saren Arterius: I no longer believe that Shepard. The visions cannot be denied. The Reapers are too powerful. The only hope of survival is to join with them. Sovereign is a machine. It thinks like a machine. If I can prove my value, I become a resource, worth maintaining. There is no other logical conclusion. 

 

Commander Shepard: You were a Spectre. You swore to protect the galaxy. Then you broke that vow to save yourself. 

 

Saren Arterius: I'm not doing this for myself. Don't you see, Sovereign will succeed. It is inevitable. My way is the only way any of us will survive. I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed. But you would undo my work. You would doom our entire civilization to complete annihilation, and for that, you must die. 

 

Saren Arterius: Is submission not preferable to extinction?

 

 

Shep: I haz Crucible, Saren.

 

Saren: Impossibru! With the Crucible and the Citadel, the Reapers will destroyed by poor writing! NUUUUUU!!!!!!!

 

Shep: I know that now.