158 réponses à ce sujet

[Araceil]

I don't think this limitation can be legitimately blamed on consoles because in both DA:O and DA2, console players had access to all of their abilities, not just the 6 that were mapped to the controller.  This seems to be more of a design choice similar to the potion restrictions and Focus-based healing... they just as easily could have used the old system that let all players have access to all of our powers but they chose not to for some reason.  Consoles are an easy, familiar target, but I don't think they are to blame in this case.

 

Eh I'm fairly sure this has more to do with MP and how they are balancing that more than anything. Seeing as in MP they can't really give players access to all the abilities DA:O style so they have to balance the enemies and AI around that. But then when they translate that same AI into single player where the player has access to a far larger pool of abilities and skills the game becomes mind-numbingly easy as was the case with Mass Effect 3. So to counter this they have two options A. Completely redo the enemy balance and AI for single player. Or B. Impose the same restrictions that MP has on the single player. It's pretty obvious what one they chose.    

[Enigmatick]

Eh I'm fairly sure this has more to do with MP and how they are balancing that more than anything. Seeing as in MP they can't really give players access to all the abilities DA:O style so they have to balance the enemies and AI around that. But then when they translate that same AI into single player where the player has access to a far larger pool of abilities and skills the game becomes mind-numbingly easy as was the case with Mass Effect 3. So to counter this they have two options A. Completely redo the enemy balance and AI for single player. Or B. Impose the same restrictions that MP has on the single player. It's pretty obvious what one they chose.    

Sounds a bit tinfoil hatty to me considering you twice the abilities MP does, seems like Laidlaw just wanted people do a lot less of "spam the my plethora of nukes with my mages" and keep on rolling but did it an arguably oversimplistic and limited way. I dunno, gotta see how the game does it.

 

Your comment does make much sense to me given the abilities and combat of ME3 btw.

[Araceil]

Sounds a bit tinfoil hatty to me considering you twice the abilities MP does, seems like Laidlaw just wanted people do a lot less of "spam the my plethora of nukes with my mages" and keep on rolling but did it an arguably oversimplistic and limited way. I dunno, gotta see how the game does it.

Your comment does make much sense to me given the abilities and combat of ME3 btw.

They do? I thought the MP guys got 8 abilities as well. Heh shows how much I've been following that! But still though 8 is still a huge reduction to the 16+ slots we had in previous games so I think that logic still applies. I should also add that I don't mind Biowares choice if the MP AI is to blame seeing as rebalancing all that would be a time consuming task and the game has already been delayed twice.

Anyway in regards to the less Mage spam thing you mentioned, the really quick mana regen and ability cooldowns seems to undermine that a fair bit... Eh who knows what Bioware is doing anymore, we can only hope it works out I guess.

Also in your last sentence did you mean to put "doesn't" by any chance, or are you agreeing with me? (I'm sure I'm just being thick and missing something here but clarification would be nice)

[Enigmatick]

They do? I thought the MP guys got 8 abilities as well. Heh shows how much I've been following that! But still though 8 is still a huge reduction to the 16+ slots we had in previous games so I think that logic still applies. I should also add that I don't mind Biowares choice if the MP AI is to blame seeing as rebalancing all that would be a time consuming task and the game has already been delayed twice.

Anyway in regards to the less Mage spam thing you mentioned, the really quick mana regen and ability cooldowns seems to undermine that a fair bit... Eh who knows what Bioware is doing anymore, we can only hope it works out I guess.

Also in your last sentence did you mean to put "doesn't" by any chance, or are you agreeing with me? (I'm sure I'm just being thick and missing something here but clarification would be nice)

I meant to put doesn't and I heard mana regen is somewhat quicker due to new ways to refill it, but where did you hear about cooldowns?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Eh I'm fairly sure this has more to do with MP and how they are balancing that more than anything. Seeing as in MP they can't really give players access to all the abilities DA:O style so they have to balance the enemies and AI around that. But then when they translate that same AI into single player where the player has access to a far larger pool of abilities and skills the game becomes mind-numbingly easy as was the case with Mass Effect 3. So to counter this they have two options A. Completely redo the enemy balance and AI for single player. Or B. Impose the same restrictions that MP has on the single player. It's pretty obvious what one they chose.    

I would think it's more just their desire to promote a more action-combat style of play.

 

If they want the game to play well in real time, then they need to it to play well with only 8 abilities (those that are accessibl in real time).  If they then allowed access to the other abilities while paused, pausing could potentially trivialise combat.  They don't want that.

[Araceil]

I meant to put doesn't and I heard mana regen is somewhat quicker due to new ways to refill it, but where did you hear about cooldowns?

Just from watching the various gameplay footage, the cooldowns seem a lot faster than Origins or even DA2. Same goes with mana/stamina, it naturally regens insanely fast, almost to the point where it may as well be unlimited. This could just be a demo thing but i'm beginning to doubt that. Regarding the Mass Effect 3, Shep and company got a couple passive skill trees that increased damage output of various abilities to way beyond anything the MP characters where capable of. All single player classes got grenades and a whole plethora of abilities that made him 10x more flexable than the MP characters, plus a higher weight limit to top it off. Combine that with enemy balance that was clearly designed around characters with less abilities and a lower overall damage output and you have the recipe for the disaster that was ME3 singleplayer balancing.    

 

I would think it's more just their desire to promote a more action-combat style of play.

 

If they want the game to play well in real time, then they need to it to play well with only 8 abilities (those that are accessibl in real time).  If they then allowed access to the other abilities while paused, pausing could potentially trivialise combat.  They don't want that.

 Yeah, that makes sense as well. Truth be told i'm kinda in denial at the moment, DA:O probably has my favorite combat system in any RPG i've ever played and seeing Bioware trying as hard as they can to move away from it without just flat out admitting it is pretty disheartening.   

[Enigmatick]

Just from watching the various gameplay footage, the cooldowns seem a lot faster than Origins or even DA2. Same goes with mana/stamina, it naturally regens insanely fast, almost to the point where it may as well be unlimited. This could just be a demo thing but i'm beginning to doubt that. Regarding the Mass Effect 3, Shep and company got a couple passive skill trees that increased damage output of various abilities to way beyond anything the MP characters where capable of. All single player classes got grenades and a whole plethora of abilities that made him 10x more flexable than the MP characters, plus a higher weight limit to top it off. Combine that with enemy balance that was clearly designed around characters with less abilities and a lower overall damage output and you have the recipe for the disaster that was ME3 singleplayer balancing.   

Laidlaw stated that the mana and stamina regen were inflated and that there were an infinite number of health potions with tactics set to drink to them so no one who waited in line for the e3 or gamescom demo would die. He might be lying but I doubt it, we see that sorta thing often.

[Araceil]

Laidlaw stated that the mana and stamina regen were inflated and that there were an infinite number of health potions with tactics set to drink to them so no one who waited in line for the e3 or gamescom demo would die. He might be lying but I doubt it, we see that sorta thing often.

Thats true, but then the fast regens seem to fit in perfectly with the type of experience they are making. It would be a little odd if they went through all these measures to make the game as action oriented as possible and then slow the regen speeds to that of origins. Either way I'm expecting regens to be fast, maybe not as fast as the demos but still pretty quick.

[Icy Magebane]

Thats true, but then the fast regens seem to fit in perfectly with the type of experience they are making. It would be a little odd if they went through all these measures to make the game as action oriented as possible and then slow the regen speeds to that of origins. Either way I'm expecting regens to be fast, maybe not as fast as the demos but still pretty quick.

Well, I haven't seen a lyrium potion in any combat video thus far, so who knows how mana regeneration will work this time... I get the feeling it will be fast, but probably not as quick as in the videos.  Hopefully it is pretty fast since I'll probably be spamming Barrier every few seconds to avoid taking health damage.

[Wulfram]

I'm currently thinking that the current design will mostly encourage a focus on tanking, for the minor fights.  Slap some Barriers and Guards on your tank, and you can probably get through without any health damage.  And if the fight is tough enough to start chipping away at health, it'll be far better to have it focused on a single character who can regen some of it post battle, than scattered through the party.

[Adam727]

My quam with it is that I am a very casual player. I wouldn't call myself a "gamer", because I dont have time to dedicate more than an hour or so every few days to a game. I like playing as a healer personally and now I feel like that role has been taken away from me, which is unfortunate. Taking regenerating health away, limiting the amount of potions we can carry/use, and taking away the healer aspect is over kill and backs your players into a corner. I no longer feel like it is PLAY YOUR WAY. It's WE CHANGED THE SYSTEM SO COME AND PLAY OUR WAY (Deal with it). I'm also concerned that DAI will be overly tactical and conveluded with too many Politics and Gathering items ( got a small taste of that in AWAKENING ). I preordered and paid for the game the day of its release, but the more previews I've seen the less excited I am for it. Wish they had reconsidered some of the healing aspect changes for the people who aren't hardcore gamers.

[boissiere]

I like stoping the game with space and ask my mages to heal or buff my other characters especially at high difficulty where you absolutly need defensive and protecting abilities for your tank. I cannot see how dragon age 1 and 2 would have been viable... If all kinds of characters have some "healing" or "regenerating" or even "return damage" then maybe, it is possible...

[Hyperion]

Just wondering, what the source is for saying "no mage healers"? I went to the combat Q & A page on the Dragon Age website, and couldn't get anything to load, is there a possibility someone could sum up the stuff that we actually KNOW about this entire situation instead of just extrapolating increasingly bleak assumptions?

 

Also, after looking at this, I decided to go back and look at the some of the gameplay demos we've seen (E3, gamescom and the like). From what I can tell health does not regen out of combat, however, there's some sort of barrier looking thing for mages/rogues and some sort of armor for warriors that seems to cover up heir health bars. Do we know anything about these mechanics?

 

Also, Watching the E3 demo from early august, they show the Spirit tree, which seems to be a combination of the old spirit and creation from previous games. Looking at this tree, you can see 2 spells with the little cross symbol that previous DA games have always used to denote healing spells. One is a picture of a hand with a cross that IMO could be nothing other than some sort of heal spell, another one is a heart with a cross on it, I'm thinking maybe a ranged revive, or some sort of regen spell. The description of the spirit tree even states that "Their spells disrupt hostile magic, create defensive barriers, and can even heal injuries".

 

Now, I haven't really been keeping track of news regarding the game that closely, but have they explicitly stated that healing mechanics will not be in the game, and have been removed since the last gameplay videos?

[Icy Magebane]

Just wondering, what the source is for saying "no mage healers"? I went to the combat Q & A page on the Dragon Age website, and couldn't get anything to load, is there a possibility someone could sum up the stuff that we actually KNOW about this entire situation instead of just extrapolating increasingly bleak assumptions?

 

-snip-

 

Now, I haven't really been keeping track of news regarding the game that closely, but have they explicitly stated that healing mechanics will not be in the game, and have been removed since the last gameplay videos?

Here is the link to the Q and A on this forum: http://forum.bioware...-dai-combat-qa/

 

And here are a couple of excerpts that may address your questions... ("DK" and "MD" are devs... you can read more about that in the linked thread if you want)

 

Is health and mana not regenerating between battles still a thing at this point? —@starcicles, Twitter, United States

[DK]: Mana and stamina regenerate. Health does not, requiring you to be careful about overextending yourself in your adventures. Potions are your primary method of healing in the field, though there are a few rare abilities that can be used tactically to regain health.

 

Do all mage followers have good healing spells or will some be better at it than others? —Josh Rodrigues, Facebook, United States

[MD]: We are focusing more mage tactics on defensive abilities (like Barrier) than healing.

 

I think that's everything relevant to the topic, but you can check for yourself.  They also mentioned a specific rogue ability whose upgrade can heal the rogue to a pre-determined level of health when used, and I'm almost positive that I've heard that Group Heal is now a Focus power, although I don't have a source... feel free to disregard that part.

[Hyperion]

 

-Snip-

Thanks for the link, and the extra info.

 

They do say "We are focusing more mage tactics on defensive abilities (like Barrier) than healing." which does indeed sound like there won't be any sort of dedicated healer type mages, but it doesn't say that mages are incapable of healing.

 

Personally, I'm going to avoid knee jerk reactions to this whole thing and see how it plays out. From all the demos i've seen, inquisition is structured very differently as far as "fights" go, in DA:O and DAII, fights were more or less group v. group self contained affairs where you had to deal with a specific group of enemies within a specific area, whereas all the gameplay I've seen from DA:I makes it look like there will be more flexibility as to how encounters occur, which enemies you actually aggro, where you approach from and how you approach the enemies. I don't really think that it's fair to judge design decisions in the context of how the previous games worked, Inquisition will be a very new game with new systems that can completely change the dynamic of the game.

[Tragoudistros]

Just to be clear, I believe Guild Wars 2 not having a dedicated healing class may or may not have something to do with the decision for no dedicated healers. Honestly I think this is a gameplay aspect that could really work. Not having to focus so much on healing give the player a unique opportunity to focus more on dealing and reducing damage. I think this means that HP management is something that we will have to keep much more of an eye on, and personally like that outlook for games. Also I should add that it looks like you can dodge and block so you should be able to avoid a lot of damage if you are doing that.

I am keeping an open mind on this issue. I for one love the idea of using dodging and blocking-like abilities to prevent damage.

I'm an avid fan of Dark Souls, and not because the game is 'difficult'. I love that I must manage my resources(health, spells, weapons) and use skill/reflexes to win battles.

I played DA Awakening, and didn't enjoy the auto-attack and inability to dodge; I felt as though I was watching the game, not playing it.

I liked DA II's Barrier and Stonewall quite a bit; I could even run out of an attack's range!(Remember the Ogres!) It felt exciting! If my allies fell, they'd have successive injuries, so there was consequence as the mission/quest progressed. (I'm on of the few that didn't hate the paratroopers... it was inelegant, but combat was, for the most part, pretty fun! Except archers on nightmare mode )

I also enjoy healing, and preferred not to rely on potions. The thought of having to weigh my options before battle sounds promising!

 

"Oohh! Should I take out those templars, and help wipe the Chantry off the face of the earth? I'm at half strength, and I really want to rescue those innocent villagers in the opposite direction... Hmm..."

Tough decisions

 

(I'm mourning the loss of Bloodmagic :'( )

[Puppy Love]

I am keeping an open mind on this issue. I for one love the idea of using dodging and blocking-like abilities to prevent damage.

I'm an avid fan of Dark Souls, and not because the game is 'difficult'. I love that I must manage my resources(health, spells, weapons) and use skill/reflexes to win battles.

I played DA Awakening, and didn't enjoy the auto-attack and inability to dodge; I felt as though I was watching the game, not playing it.

I liked DA II's Barrier and Stonewall quite a bit; I could even run out of an attack's range!(Remember the Ogres!) It felt exciting! If my allies fell, they'd have successive injuries, so there was consequence as the mission/quest progressed. (I'm on of the few that didn't hate the paratroopers... it was inelegant, but combat was, for the most part, pretty fun! Except archers on nightmare mode )

I also enjoy healing, and preferred not to rely on potions. The thought of having to weigh my options before battle sounds promising!

 

"Oohh! Should I take out those templars, and help wipe the Chantry off the face of the earth? I'm at half strength, and I really want to rescue those innocent villagers in the opposite direction... Hmm..."

Tough decisions

 

(I'm mourning the loss of Bloodmagic :'( )

Yes all that is fun and awesome while running solo.  Dodging and things are great with the character you control.  You, however, cannot micromanage dodging between companions, and that's my issue.  Is pure instantaneous reactions, which does not function while controlling a party.  Which means you the pc will be dodging and kicking butt like fiend while your party just stands there taking most of the hits.

[UniformGreyColor]

To Icy, Hype and Trag,

 

Yes there will still be healing in the game, I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed. As far as healing potions go, I believe you can upgrade the amount of potions you can bring with you. In one video it looked like 120 is the max which I would assume would be more than enough, even late game because combat is definitely different in DA:I than in the precious games.

[Icy Magebane]

To Icy, Hype and Trag,

 

Yes there will still be healing in the game, I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed. As far as healing potions go, I believe you can upgrade the amount of potions you can bring with you. In one video it looked like 120 is the max which I would assume would be more than enough, even late game because combat is definitely different in DA:I than in the precious games.

120 health potions???  Are you sure about that?

 

edit:  Yeah, sorry but I think you are mistaken.    According to the Gamescom 2014 video, there is an Inquisition perk called "Tempered Glass Flasks," which increases potion carrying capacity by one.  Clearly this would be a tiny bit underpowered if we could carry more than a hundred at a time... lol. 

 

And because I'm feeling generous, here is a link to the post that gives details on perks:  http://forum.bioware...ing-inquisitor/

The screenshot with Tempered Flasks is under the first spoiler tag...  this perk's descriptions says that it increases capacity for "all" party members, so perhaps that means everyone gets their own supply?  10 potions per companion should be more than sufficient if we're careful... I thought it was 10 for the entire party, but now I'm not so sure...

[Ryzaki]

Ugh it better not be 10 for the whole party.

 

That's unplayable for me =/

[Icy Magebane]

Ugh it better not be 10 for the whole party.

 

That's unplayable for me =/

You'll be fine as long as you spam Barrier, go with all ranged units, and run like a coward whenever anything larger than a baby nug approaches. 

[Ryzaki]

You'll be fine as long as you spam Barrier, go with all ranged units, and run like a coward whenever anything larger than a baby nug approaches. 

 

Bah. Only ranged people I'm really interested in are Varric and Vivi and since I already have one mage (my PC) I don't need another.

[Hyperion]

Bah. Only ranged people I'm really interested in are Varric and Vivi and since I already have one mage (my PC) I don't need another.

Well, as far as melee units go, it looks like warriors (i'm not sure if this is for sword and shield or for all warriors) have some sort of ability that gives them armor on top of their health bar that doesn't seem to decay like barrier does. With barrier on top of armor on top of HP, it should be pretty hard to even put a dent in the tankier characters, let alone take them down, but we'll see.

[AlanC9]

Yes all that is fun and awesome while running solo.  Dodging and things are great with the character you control.  You, however, cannot micromanage dodging between companions, and that's my issue.  Is pure instantaneous reactions, which does not function while controlling a party.  Which means you the pc will be dodging and kicking butt like fiend while your party just stands there taking most of the hits.

Unless the AI knows how to dodge on its own.

[Puppy Love]

Unless the AI knows how to dodge on its own.

only one of two things can happen with that, either the computer will suck at it, or will be so good at it your pc is actually handicapped by having you at the controls.  There is no way for the computer to share your skill level. 

 

It obviously can't autosucceed and thus be unhittable, therefore it can't be superior to the PC, which means how crappy is it at it in comparison.  If it's mediocre most Players can be better at it, but the better the computer gets, the fewer players can keep up with it and be better, and the more that are better off not playing their character if they want their character to successfully dodge. 

 

It's just a crazy setup.   There's no perfect place to set the computers active dodge skill.