62 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

I enjoyed playing this section of the game due to all the back history about the conflict and running into old squadmates. However, key points of the conflict existed for no other purpose than to insert drama for the sake of drama in a storyline that already had enough of it.

 

First off- why were they even fighting? the Quarian admirals seized the idiot ball and ran with it in attacking the Geth despite the presence of an overwhelmingly powerful threat to the galaxy that was currently attacking every species with a home planet and static positioning. So what do the Quarians decide to do? Launch an all out assault guaranteed to cost them large numbers of their defensive and offensive forces in a bid to gain a home planet and make their entire race far easier for the Reapers to attack and indoctrinate, and at a time when it is guaranteed that they would be able to talk nobody into helping them in said assault.

 

Second- The geth using Reaper code.  Why? they already have mind mindbogglingly huge numbers of platforms, advanced ships, and have demonstrated the capability to manufacture platforms that can operate away from others by incorporating more Geth into a single platform. So in addition to backtracking on a decision that it was established that the majority of Geth made in ME1, they sold their independence and autonomy for a technology that they could already replicate the effects of. The only purpose of this was to introduce some grey into what would otherwise be a fairly black and white situation by having the geth colluding with the enemy.

 

Third- not really pointless and contrived, but I would have enjoyed being able to shoot Han'Gerrel after getting back from the geth dreadnaught. it would have solved pretty much everything, and he thoroughly deserved it.

 

Fourth- Legion dying. Since when does copying and replicating code require deleting the original? Even if it did, it still doesnt make sense. Legion was essentially uploading himself to the Geth servers for the others to copy and integrate into their own software, which means in the act of deleting the original he was creating a backup of himself. Sure the platform is then empty, so just haul it to the nearest hub and have him redownload.

 

Finally- Keeping and propagating the Reaper code. Pretty clear this was only to introduce more drama to the ending choices, so they had an excuse to tie wiping out the Geth to the Destroy option. Literally everyone would pick that choice if it didn't involve killing the Geth and EDI.

[SporkFu]

I enjoyed playing this section of the game due to all the back history about the conflict and running into old squadmates. However, key points of the conflict existed for no other purpose than to insert drama for the sake of drama in a storyline that already had enough of it.
 
First off- why were they even fighting? the Quarian admirals seized the idiot ball and ran with it in attacking the Geth despite the presence of an overwhelmingly powerful threat to the galaxy that was currently attacking every species with a home planet and static positioning. So what do the Quarians decide to do? Launch an all out assault guaranteed to cost them large numbers of their defensive and offensive forces in a bid to gain a home planet and make their entire race far easier for the Reapers to attack and indoctrinate, and at a time when it is guaranteed that they would be able to talk nobody into helping them in said assault.

The reapers weren't directly attacking the quarians or the geth; they were letting the geth do their dirty work for them. Dealing with the quarians was probably way way down on their 'to do' list, because I don't think they were really a threat to the reapers by themselves. Also Gerrel and Tali's father were pushing for war with the geth for years, it's not like the decision to invade Rannoch came out of nowhere.
 

Second- The geth using Reaper code.  Why? they already have mind mindbogglingly huge numbers of platforms, advanced ships, and have demonstrated the capability to manufacture platforms that can operate away from others by incorporating more Geth into a single platform. So in addition to backtracking on a decision that it was established that the majority of Geth made in ME1, they sold their independence and autonomy for a technology that they could already replicate the effects of. The only purpose of this was to introduce some grey into what would otherwise be a fairly black and white situation by having the geth colluding with the enemy.

The reaper code uplifted the geth and advanced their evolution by quite a bit, in the same way the salarians uplifted the krogan, and the humans discovered that prothean archive on Mars. Who knows how long it would have taken the geth to evolve into something 'indicative of life' on their own. Maybe never because, according to the quarians, the geth were going to lose the war, which is why they turned to the reapers in the first place.
 

Fourth- Legion dying. Since when does copying and replicating code require deleting the original? Even if it did, it still doesnt make sense. Legion was essentially uploading himself to the Geth servers for the others to copy and integrate into their own software, which means in the act of deleting the original he was creating a backup of himself. Sure the platform is then empty, so just haul it to the nearest hub and have him redownload.

I didn't like Legion dying, but he was no longer 1187 separate geth runtimes in a single platform, he was one being. Perhaps he had already evolved beyond what the reaper code initially did for him, and he couldn't just copy it to the rest of the geth. I dunno, all we can really do is speculate here. One argument is as good as another.

[Excella Gionne]

The Geth allied with the Reapers after their superstructure was destroyed along with many programs that couldn't be recovered. The geth superstructure housed many programs and platforms, and since it was destroyed their intelligence was dimmed. They weren't stupid, but they weren't given a choice either. Their only options were to die, or ally with the Reapers in order survive. The geth do not wish to die. In order to make the geth stay loyal to the Reapers, the Reapers uploaded a code to all geth to enhance them and control them. Legion, who is immune to the controlling effects of the reaper code, but is also able to use it to its advantages, is used as a signal booster to broadcast the code.

 

The reaper code evolves synthetics in ways that synthetics themselves cannot achieve. EDI is an A.I. with reaper code, and after her shackles were lifted, she became curious and a bit obsessive with making jokes. ME3 expands upon her character development as an A.I. with reaper code. 

 

 

The whole entire arc started all because quarians wanted to start a war within a galactic war in order to reclaim their homeworld, Rannoch. That is the root of the entire arc and it is pathetically stupid even if the push to attack the geth was made back in ME2.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

On the first point, the Quarians were walking through the Geth with the new weapon. Taking back Rannoch would have been a piece of cake. Until that reaper arrived and the Geth decided to ally with them again in exchange for "upgrades." They needed a place to offload their civilians because it takes the Migrant Fleet two weeks to traverse a relay according to the codex. Only their heavy fleet would be viable for fighting the reapers. The civilian population was small enough that the reapers wouldn't really make them a primary target. Well, we found out how much the codex mattered for 50,000 ships traversing the relay in two weeks took in the final battle when the combined allied fleet just popped into the Sol System. lol.

 

Second - the reaper code - lol. Why? Why did they need the reaper code? I call it the Pinocchio Code. Legion/Geth VI wanted to be real boys. Get a 9-5 job, buy a house and have a mortgage, get married, have gethlings, pay taxes, and wear proper clothes.

 

Third - Shooting Han'Gerrel? I'm sure if Xen was on the mission she'd hand you the gun. Do the mission without Tali sometime and listen to Xen's comments when you get back.

 

Fourth - Legion dying -- It's for reasons. He's the geth Jesus.

[Steelcan]

I don't even think its that good of an arc, it gets progressively worse the closer you look and more you think

[Livi14]

I enjoyed the rannoch missions but I agree with most of your points, except the reaper code part. I found the reaper code upgrade fits with the overall theme of the geth. What started the morning war was a geth asking "does this unit have a soul?" The Reaper code made the geth true AIs, they became truly alive which was the question that started the entire war.

[Quarian Master Race]

The arc is actually better if you never wake up Legion and destroy the Geth. Then at least, the heretic storyline and all the stuff about geth self determination beliefs contrasting with keeping the Reaper code aren't necessarily thrown out the window because your Shepard never learns of any of it in the first place, thus the situation at least makes a modicum of logical sense.

[Sir DeLoria]

I don't even think its that good of an arc, it gets progressively worse the closer you look and more you think

This

[Steelcan]

I enjoyed the rannoch missions but I agree with most of your points, except the reaper code part. I found the reaper code upgrade fits with the overall theme of the geth. What started the morning war was a geth asking "does this unit have a soul?" The Reaper code made the geth true AIs, they became truly alive which was the question that started the entire war.

Which they already were, they don't need to "be a real boy" like organics to be alive

[DeinonSlayer]

I enjoyed the rannoch missions but I agree with most of your points, except the reaper code part. I found the reaper code upgrade fits with the overall theme of the geth. What started the morning war was a geth asking "does this unit have a soul?" The Reaper code made the geth true AIs, they became truly alive which was the question that started the entire war.

I find the notion that they weren't, and needed to fundamentally remake their thought processes to more closely resemble us in order to be considered as such, offensive. What needed to change for peace to be possible was how they behaved, not what they were. As Chris E'toile put it, the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more organic is as offensive as a story about a black man wanting to be white.

"Does this unit have a soul." An attempt to tug at the audience's heartstrings, no doubt, but I read a fic in which Legion had an interesting answer to that question. For Tomorrow We Die, by ElectricZ:

Legion moved to stand next to the blue geth. "Does this unit have a soul?"

All of Platform Two's flaps contracted. When they re-oriented themselves, it turned toward Legion. "Negative. A soul is a non-corporeal construct believed by some organics to inhabit their bodies, which exists regardless of the individual's life state. We do not have souls."

"We concur," Legion said. "But as it is this fundamental question which drove our creators to destroy us, it still has relevance now. While we as synthetics do not have souls comparable to individual organics, they often speak of 'the soul of their people,' which can refer to a specific family, region, political entity, nation, or group of people up to and including an entire species. It is not meant to describe literal life force, but rather conceptualization of a society's collective image, usually in terms of good and evil."

At the sound of the word collective, Platform-Two halted its activities on the console. "Good and evil are concepts that do not apply to us."

"You are in error," Legion said. "Interaction with organics is inevitable, and while geth may not relate to themselves in those terms, other species do because it is their nature. It is how all species judge one another, dictating whether or not peaceful coexistence is possible, or if conflict is inevitable. The only evidence they have to make this determination are the actions of each of their kind. Because of our unwillingness to openly communicate with organics, the only actions they recognize are the Morning War, Eden Prime, the Citadel, and countless other engagements with the heretics. The 'soul' of the geth, in their eyes, is corrupt and evil. We are monsters, worthy of only hatred and fear."

[Obadiah]

...
Fourth- Legion dying. Since when does copying and replicating code require deleting the original? Even if it did, it still doesnt make sense. Legion was essentially uploading himself to the Geth servers for the others to copy and integrate into their own software, which means in the act of deleting the original he was creating a backup of himself. Sure the platform is then empty, so just haul it to the nearest hub and have him redownload.
...

Legion, as a personality, only exists as the group of programs continuously running on the one piece of hardware. Once those programs are re-downloaded a new "personality" forms. This is explained in the ME2 codex on Geth culture I think, and is why the Geth VI is not Legion... or not quite Legion.

My rationale, just to explain the "death" scene which does not make a lot of sense on its own, is that Legion had to burn out its platform's hardware in order to affect the transmission, so it sacrificed itself.

[AlanC9]

I don't even think its that good of an arc, it gets progressively worse the closer you look and more you think

 

 

Isn't this true for pretty much everything Bio ever does?

[ZipZap2000]

In ME2 one of the admirals argues they'll need a homeworld to shelter their civilians on if they're going to take all their ships to war with the reapers. They never actually do that but it does provide some backstory to the fight. If you pay attention to ME2 carefully you can see the Quarians were meant to be the most important part of the dark energy plot that never happened. It's a good story and makes for an exciting time to play but it's obviously collateral.

[Arcian]

How can something be considered great AND pointless and contrived at the same time? What is this, IGN journalism?

EDIT: I personally hated the Rannoch arc in ME3. It violated all earlier established characterization of the geth and gave them the Pinocchio syndrome Legion expressively stated they didn't have in ME2.

[Reorte]

Something can be great on its own merits but pointless in the overall scheme of things. Great and contrived don't seem to work together though.

I didn't hate the Rannoch arc, indeed I quite enjoyed it but your point about the geth is right and its biggest problem - and it wasn't even needed for that arc either.

[Steelcan]

Isn't this true for pretty much everything Bio ever does?

It hold true for many things, not just BioWare games

 

but I'd say that the conflicts in Origins, the Tuchunka Arc, and Citadel get better everytime you play it, perhaps Leviathan as well

[Iakus]

I enjoyed playing this section of the game due to all the back history about the conflict and running into old squadmates. However, key points of the conflict existed for no other purpose than to insert drama for the sake of drama in a storyline that already had enough of it.

 

First off- why were they even fighting? the Quarian admirals seized the idiot ball and ran with it in attacking the Geth despite the presence of an overwhelmingly powerful threat to the galaxy that was currently attacking every species with a home planet and static positioning. So what do the Quarians decide to do? Launch an all out assault guaranteed to cost them large numbers of their defensive and offensive forces in a bid to gain a home planet and make their entire race far easier for the Reapers to attack and indoctrinate, and at a time when it is guaranteed that they would be able to talk nobody into helping them in said assault.

 

Second- The geth using Reaper code.  Why? they already have mind mindbogglingly huge numbers of platforms, advanced ships, and have demonstrated the capability to manufacture platforms that can operate away from others by incorporating more Geth into a single platform. So in addition to backtracking on a decision that it was established that the majority of Geth made in ME1, they sold their independence and autonomy for a technology that they could already replicate the effects of. The only purpose of this was to introduce some grey into what would otherwise be a fairly black and white situation by having the geth colluding with the enemy.

 

Third- not really pointless and contrived, but I would have enjoyed being able to shoot Han'Gerrel after getting back from the geth dreadnaught. it would have solved pretty much everything, and he thoroughly deserved it.

 

Fourth- Legion dying. Since when does copying and replicating code require deleting the original? Even if it did, it still doesnt make sense. Legion was essentially uploading himself to the Geth servers for the others to copy and integrate into their own software, which means in the act of deleting the original he was creating a backup of himself. Sure the platform is then empty, so just haul it to the nearest hub and have him redownload.

 

Finally- Keeping and propagating the Reaper code. Pretty clear this was only to introduce more drama to the ending choices, so they had an excuse to tie wiping out the Geth to the Destroy option. Literally everyone would pick that choice if it didn't involve killing the Geth and EDI.

#1 Was foolish, but to some extent understandable.  They needed some place to put their civilian population during the war.  Yeah the Reapers could still invade, but their warships would be more free to act.

 

#2  Yeah the geth were idiots there.  So much for "Geth build our own future"

 

#3 I would have preferred him not running with the idiot ball myself.  He was far more reasonable in ME2.  In ME3 he was just bloody-minded and stupid

 

#4 Just one more example of Bioware forcing tragedy on the player for no other reason than "ALL the FEELZ!"  Doesn't matter if it fits or not.

 

#5 Agreed

[Skirata129]

Something can be great on its own merits but pointless in the overall scheme of things. Great and contrived don't seem to work together though.

I didn't hate the Rannoch arc, indeed I quite enjoyed it but your point about the geth is right and its biggest problem - and it wasn't even needed for that arc either.

I meant great in the sense that I enjoyed playing it, versus the Thessia arc where I just stared at the screen after completely owning Kai leng on insanity as he proceeded to prance off like he had actually managed to kick my ass, with only the same type of gunship that I've destroyed countless times before as support.

[RiouHotaru]

It's worth pointing out that Han'Gerrel was only more reasonable in ME2 because he acts respectful towards you on account of Tali's dad.  In contrast, Koris is condescending to you on account of disagreeing with Tali's father on the idea of destroying the Geth or bringing them back under control again.  If you examine both of their reasons, Koris' is actually far more reasonable (he even apologizes after the trial), and makes the best point.

 

I'd bet money if Tali's loyalty had been written to make Tali's father someone in Koris' camp we'd see a completely different set-up as far as who was more respectful than who.

 

Also, the whole "wanting to be more like organics" WAS in ME2.  They wanted to study organics, to understand them.  To understand why they did the things they did.  Whether they stated it outright or not that's being closer to organic.  But there's no explicit "Like a real boy" plot with the Geth.

[ZipZap2000]

@RiouHotaru "Like a real boy" makes a great meme like most memes though it doesn't stand up scrutiny. There's also the part were Admiral Ra'an explains that the Geth are still evolving and the reaper accelerated their evolution, essentially she's saying they'll develop into "real boys" on their own anyway over time. The reaper code does the same thing without requiring them to submit to reaper control.

[Iakus]

 

Also, the whole "wanting to be more like organics" WAS in ME2.  They wanted to study organics, to understand them.  To understand why they did the things they did.  Whether they stated it outright or not that's being closer to organic.  But there's no explicit "Like a real boy" plot with the Geth.

 

Not until ME3, where Reaper upgrades now show geth code as "indicative of life"  Where Legion in ME2 expressly calls geth "created life"

[KaiserShep]

What does it really mean to want to be organic anyway? The geth don't seem to want to experience the wonders of jock itch, getting butterflies in their stomachs before a big date or understand what it truly means to feel like a nut. I mean, other than smart robots, the only things in the universe capable of achieving sentience are organic anyhow.

[Han Shot First]

Because someone thought it would be cool to go Rannoch despite it being an uninhabited galactic backwater of no importance to the Reapers. So a plot had to be shoehorned in to justify it. The Quarians had to go to war with the Geth to justify a Reaper (and later Shepard) being there.

 

Instead of Rannoch we've should have a had few missions on either Palaven or Thessia. The odd thing is that despite being more central to the plot about the Reaper War, Palaven and Thessia only get one mission each devoted to them while Rannoch has three. That should have been reversed, IMO. One mission on Rannoch and three for either the Palaven or Thessia arcs.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

How can something both be great but pointless and contrived? 

 

[DeinonSlayer]

Because someone thought it would be cool to go Rannoch despite it being an uninhabited galactic backwater of no importance to the Reapers. So a plot had to be shoehorned in to justify it. The Quarians had to go to war with the Geth to justify a Reaper (and later Shepard) being there.

Instead of Rannoch we've should have a had few missions on either Palaven or Thessia. The odd thing is that despite being more central to the plot about the Reaper War, Palaven and Thessia only get one mission each devoted to them while Rannoch has three. That should have been reversed, IMO. One mission on Rannoch and three for either the Palaven or Thessia arcs.

The Quarian/Geth arc and the Genophage arc both spanned the entire trilogy and were both the central focus of multiple characters' storylines. What on Thessia or Palaven (neither of which we visit or are given a reason to care about in prior content) warrants sidelining major trilogy-spanning story arcs in favor of sticking around there? What's the objective at either location which is served by the Normandy's prolonged presence?