203 réponses à ce sujet

[ZipZap2000]

Let's not start measuring each others intelligence. Let alone by what their favourite instalment of a video game trilogy is.

[FaWa]

What's this nonsense about percentages of women in combat in real life? I don't play these fantasy ass games for real life.

 

This. For real. 

[Cknarf]

More dick and fart jokes, please.

[mybudgee]

Yes, please writers give us something that I can't punch holes in and use for comedic fodder. The plot for ME1 was awesome. There was no plot for ME2. And ME3? While at least it has a plot, let's make it less juvenile. Gamers are getting older. We want more.

FTFY

[Reorte]

What's this nonsense about percentages of women in combat in real life? I don't play these fantasy ass games for real life.

But the more convincing they are the more I can suspend disbelief and enjoy the game. Things need to stay in touch with reality plus whatever the universe's differences are (and using that to justify the unlikely doesn't work) for me to do that. Particularly if you want me to take the story seriously (comedy can get away with a lot more).

[von uber]

But the more convincing they are the more I can suspend disbelief and enjoy the game. Things need to stay in touch with reality plus whatever the universe's differences are (and using that to justify the unlikely doesn't work) for me to do that. Particularly if you want me to take the story seriously (comedy can get away with a lot more).

 

Telephone call for you - it's Synthesis. Saying something about some trouble with self aware Banshees...?

[Reorte]

Telephone call for you - it's Synthesis. Saying something about some trouble with self aware Banshees...?

Well I've made my views on Synthesis clear enough in the past.

As the maturity, yes please. There are a lot of things it doesn't mean though. It doesn't mean sex and gore, it doesn't mean every choice is damned if you do, damned if you don't, it doesn't mean everything is a painful moral dilemma. A mature story can have all of those though, but it doesn't have any of those just for the sake of it. To me a mature story is one that takes itself seriously (which doesn't exclude light moments - or either the whole thing being fairly light). It's real-feeling people doing real-feeling things, and doesn't avoid dealing with the consequences of those things, even in a fantasy setting.

[SporkFu]

Well I've made my views on Synthesis clear enough in the past.

As the maturity, yes please. There are a lot of things it doesn't mean though. It doesn't mean sex and gore, it doesn't mean every choice is damned if you do, damned if you don't, it doesn't mean everything is a painful moral dilemma. A mature story can have all of those though, but it doesn't have any of those just for the sake of it. To me a mature story is one that takes itself seriously (which doesn't exclude light moments - or either the whole thing being fairly light). It's real-feeling people doing real-feeling things, and doesn't avoid dealing with the consequences of those things, even in a fantasy setting.

Well said. Gotta say though, my favorite part of the trilogy is the citadel DLC. When I play a game like mass effect, I like it to be a Blasto movie.

[DemiserofD]

1. There's no rational reason we couldn't have as many women on the battlefield as men. Right now, the average woman has maybe 2.5 children. If you really needed to increase your population, it would be, frankly, pretty easy to get those women to double that.

 

Furthermore, the percentage of people in the combat compared to the number of civilians is ridiculously small. Even if your military was 100% women, their deaths wouldn't meaningfully effect your reproduction rates. Honestly, people in the military are probably less likely to have children, so losing them might actually INCREASE your statistical average number of children/individual.

 

As for physical characteristics...this is sci-fi, guys. Power armor, biotics, implants...it's not that hard to think of something to bring balance.

 

2. The Reapers wait until civilizations reach a certain point to harvest them. Complaining that they could have taken over a thousand years before is stupid, because that wasn't the reapers plan to begin with.

 

3. Maturity has nothing to do with gore or sex or violence, it has everything to do with how those things are portrayed in the story. You can have blood leaking out of the walls, but the instant a space ninja shows up and starts killing marines with a magic sword that can cut through solid armor without any effort,  the maturity of your story is going to go down.

 

Well, not necessarily, I guess. You'd have to explain why this space ninja was there, and integrate him into your world, which would have to change to accommodate him, yet remain recognizably the same. You'd have to treat him seriously, and have him act seriously, even if he's acting completely ridiculous. And above all else, you have to make it work well with your game mechanics. If you want an enemy to be seen as badass, make them actually badass; don't give them infinite shields three fourths of the time to draw out the fight.

 

The Thorian(which someone mentioned earlier) worked in the original mass effect, because while it was a little ridiculous, and there were a few plot holes(where did their weapons come from?) the entire thing was treated seriously and dealt with in a serious manner that properly utilized the abilities of the cast.

 

Kai Leng, on the other hand, was insanely stupid, because in order to succeed, he required to game to accommodate him, and the cast to act like idiots. He could have been a ridiculous pastiche of every anime ninja ever and it still could have worked if his presence didn't overwrite the game whenever he showed up. The story is about the main cast. That's what we care about, that's why we play. No matter how outlandish the situation, they are something of a constant. But Kai Leng changed the cast just by existing, and therefore, he was an immature addition. A Mary Sue, in other words. The world bends to accommodate his presence.

 

A good middle ground would be the ME2 Human Reaper. On the one hand, it came out of nowhere, it was kinda silly, and jarred the suspension of disbelief a little bit. On the other hand, there was actually a bit of build up to it, once you thought about it, and it fit into the themes of assimilation and corruption the Reapers had been stating. But most importantly, the cast were not changed by its presence. It existed, they fought it, but they remained themselves.  If, for example, they had looked at it and fallen back in horror before running cluelessly about as they got crushed, losing your teammates permanently before you fought it one on one, it would have become a bad example, because it broke the suspension of disbelief.

[KaiserShep]

But the more convincing they are the more I can suspend disbelief and enjoy the game. Things need to stay in touch with reality plus whatever the universe's differences are (and using that to justify the unlikely doesn't work) for me to do that. Particularly if you want me to take the story seriously (comedy can get away with a lot more).

 

Yeah, but is this really the case for something like the percentage of women that are in the military in either game? I mean, I saw women soldiers all over the place in Dragon Age and Mass Effect alongside their male counterparts, but I never felt like I was being removed from the game over it. It just didn't seem like a thing that should really stand out. Some "rules" that we try to apply from real life so that we can relate to the fictional universe, in my opinion, are just too trivial to care about. This, I feel, is one of those things.

 

Anyway, as for the topic of maturity, the thing that I feel would be best altered would be the nature of the power fantasy. Mass Effect's power fantasy was so profound that it's kind of an embarrassment of riches in terms of influence on the part of Shepard.

 

Shepard: You, random turian. Go fetch me a sandwich, then throw yourself out an airlock.

 

Turian: What? F*ck you, human.

 

Shepard: Do it!

 

Turian: OK.

[ZipZap2000]

That reminds me of a Batarian on Omega.

 

Drink it!

 

F*ck no! That sh*ts poison.  *walks away*

[Reorte]

Yeah, but is this really the case for something like the percentage of women that are in the military in either game? I mean, I saw women soldiers all over the place in Dragon Age and Mass Effect alongside their male counterparts, but I never felt like I was being removed from the game over it. It just didn't seem like a thing that should really stand out. Some "rules" that we try to apply from real life so that we can relate to the fictional universe, in my opinion, are just too trivial to care about. This, I feel, is one of those things.

I found that it did stand out in Dragon Age because I just couldn't see it happening in that universe. With different social structures maybe the occasional one but nowhere near as many. It stands out less in Mass Effect because the whole setting makes it more plausible, if we can assume that the technology means that physical strength is less important than it is now or was in a historic setting (although even if there were no physical barriers would as many women want to join as men? Is that part of it a social or a biological thing?)

 

I don't think that there are any rules too trivial to care about, and thinking that they are and dismissing them is a sign of a hack writer. Some are obviously more important than others but the story that breaks the fewest rules will be the best story if they're equal in all other regards, and it may make it significantly better. My suspension of disbelief doesn't go as far as not thinking.

[fhs33721]

I found that it did stand out in Dragon Age because I just couldn't see it happening in that universe. With different social structures maybe the occasional one but nowhere near as many. It stands out less in Mass Effect because the whole setting makes it more plausible, if we can assume that the technology means that physical strength is less important than it is now or was in a historic setting (although even if there were no physical barriers would as many women want to join as men? Is that part of it a social or a biological thing?)

 

I don't think that there are any rules too trivial to care about, and thinking that they are and dismissing them is a sign of a hack writer. Some are obviously more important than others but the story that breaks the fewest rules will be the best story if they're equal in all other regards, and it may make it significantly better. My suspension of disbelief doesn't go as far as not thinking.

What? In a game that has firebreathing dragons, demons, people throwing fireballs everywhere, 4 people fighting and defeating whole battalions of trained soldiers and bandits stopping to attack because Leliana sings a song the fact that there are women on the battlefiled is what stands out?

Dragons and Magic are totally probable but numerous female warriors appearing in a high fantasy setting breaks the suspension of disbelief?

 

That's one of the most ridicioulus things I've ever heard. Biologically speaking a massive dragon would never be able to fly and I'm sure magic pretty much violates a bunch of phisical laws. Are we supposed to not have any of that either now because it's unrealistic?

[von uber]

What? In a game that has firebreathing dragons, demons, people throwing fireballs everywhere, 4 people fighting and defeating whole battalions of trained soldiers and bandits stopping to attack because Leliana sings a song the fact that there are women on the battlefiled is what stands out?

Dragons and Magic are totally probable but numerous female warriors appearing in a high fantasy setting breaks the suspension of disbelief?

 

That's one of the most ridicioulus things I've ever heard. Biologically speaking a massive dragon would never be able to fly and I'm sure magic pretty much violates a bunch of phisical laws. Are we supposed to not have any of that either now because it's unrealistic?

 

 

Shhh. If we have more even representation of women then men will be castrated and forced to serve the new feminazi overlords.

[Farangbaa]

Well, there is a problem in games.

 

[Reorte]

What? In a game that has firebreathing dragons, demons, people throwing fireballs everywhere, 4 people fighting and defeating whole battalions of trained soldiers and bandits stopping to attack because Leliana sings a song the fact that there are women on the battlefiled is what stands out?

Dragons and Magic are totally probable but numerous female warriors appearing in a high fantasy setting breaks the suspension of disbelief?

 

That's one of the most ridicioulus things I've ever heard. Biologically speaking a massive dragon would never be able to fly and I'm sure magic pretty much violates a bunch of phisical laws. Are we supposed to not have any of that either now because it's unrealistic?

Oh dear, someone's come up with what's basically "if you can have one thing unrealistic then anything is fine." That's always the sign of an idiotic argument. Dragons and so on are part of the fictional universe, establised early on (as well as being a pretty well-established idea anyway, which always makes it easier to accept). They're needed for the setting and there's no way they can be made to work without it being unreaslistic, so that's fine. I think I mentioned the "real world and whatever exceptions to it the fictional universe establishes."

 

But to then imply that you think anything else is? You've opened the door to justifying every single bit of nonsense since you've effectively said "anything goes." Might as well have the entire Blight defeated by Dog whilst everyone else sits in the pub, drinking gallon after gallon of beer and staying entirely sober. There's no reason given to think that people in that fictional universe aren't basically the same as people in the real one so whenever they behave differently, or have different abilities beyond what the established exceptions are (e.g. biotics in Mass Effect) then suspension of disbelief takes a hit. A good writer does his best to avoid that. A bad one doesn't care and resorts to the sort of excuse you come up with, if he even bothers at all, knowing that there are plenty of people willing to swallow it.

[We'll bang okay]

Lets do an intelligence test for the members here: Which is the most mature Mass Effect?

 

1 2 or 3?

I would say 1 

[fhs33721]

Oh dear, someone's come up with what's basically "if you can have one thing unrealistic then anything is fine." That's always the sign of an idiotic argument. Dragons and so on are part of the fictional universe, establised early on (as well as being a pretty well-established idea anyway, which always makes it easier to accept). They're needed for the setting and there's no way they can be made to work without it being unreaslistic, so that's fine. I think I mentioned the "real world and whatever exceptions to it the fictional universe establishes."

 

But to then imply that you think anything else is? You've opened the door to justifying every single bit of nonsense since you've effectively said "anything goes." Might as well have the entire Blight defeated by Dog whilst everyone else sits in the pub, drinking gallon after gallon of beer and staying entirely sober. There's no reason given to think that people in that fictional universe aren't basically the same as people in the real one so whenever they behave differently, or have different abilities beyond what the established exceptions are (e.g. biotics in Mass Effect) then suspension of disbelief takes a hit. A good writer does his best to avoid that. A bad one doesn't care and resorts to the sort of excuse you come up with, if he even bothers at all, knowing that there are plenty of people willing to swallow it.

Well Dragons are established early on yes. So are female warriors. They are also an pretty well established idea in high Fantasy. Hell, even back in ancient Greece we had amazons. Shouldn't this make it easier to accept as you said? Nothing about the concept is any worse than the other fantasitc things in DA. 

 

And while my arguments may be boiled down to "if you can have one thing unrealistic then anything is fine" (which is by the way not completely what I was trying to say in the first place. I was actually just wondering how of all things the female soldiers were what stood out to you, but ok. ) your argument is basically : "Unrealistic stuff is fine as long as it's unrealistic stuff I want." which is a sign of a similarily weak argument.

[KaiserShep]

I found that it did stand out in Dragon Age because I just couldn't see it happening in that universe. With different social structures maybe the occasional one but nowhere near as many. It stands out less in Mass Effect because the whole setting makes it more plausible, if we can assume that the technology means that physical strength is less important than it is now or was in a historic setting (although even if there were no physical barriers would as many women want to join as men? Is that part of it a social or a biological thing?)

 

I don't think that there are any rules too trivial to care about, and thinking that they are and dismissing them is a sign of a hack writer. Some are obviously more important than others but the story that breaks the fewest rules will be the best story if they're equal in all other regards, and it may make it significantly better. My suspension of disbelief doesn't go as far as not thinking.

 

 

The reason I put rules in quotation marks is because I don't actually consider it a rule at all, but rather an arbitrary standard that we apply, as opposed to the ones the writers establish in the codex (which is something done right from the start in this case). It's not a rule that women should be less common in the military in Dragon Age, because it's not ridiculous or breaching some impenetrable boundary of reality that they would be, which is the reason I consider this trivial. If we want to discuss their personal motivation, then we're not going to get anywhere fast. We might as well argue whether or not most women in Thedas love or hate chocolate.

[Steelcan]

The reason I put rules in quotation marks is because I don't actually consider it a rule at all, but rather an arbitrary standard that we apply, as opposed to the ones the writers establish in the codex (which is something done right from the start in this case). It's not a rule that women should be less common in the military in Dragon Age, because it's not ridiculous or breaching some impenetrable boundary of reality that they would be, which is the reason I consider this trivial. If we want to discuss their personal motivation, then we're not going to get anywhere fast. We might as well argue whether or not most women in Thedas love or hate chocolate.

most of them love chocolate, and may your ancestors bones bleach in the sun if you disagree with me

[KaiserShep]

most of them love chocolate, and may your ancestors bones bleach in the sun if you disagree with me

 

[Farangbaa]

Well Dragons are established early on yes. So are female warriors. They are also an pretty well established idea in high Fantasy. Hell, even back in ancient Greece we had amazons. Shouldn't this make it easier to accept as you said? Nothing about the concept is any worse than the other fantasitc things in DA. 

 

And while my arguments may be boiled down to "if you can have one thing unrealistic then anything is fine" (which is by the way not completely what I was trying to say in the first place. I was actually just wondering how of all things the female soldiers were what stood out to you, but ok. ) your argument is basically : "Unrealistic stuff is fine as long as it's unrealistic stuff I want." which is a sign of a similarily weak argument.

 

Do you really want to use the Amazons as an example here?

 

A mythical society existing of nothing but females? Really? (btw, they weren't Greek)

[SporkFu]

A mythical society existing of nothing but females? Really? 

Imagine a whole world full of those blue beauties. One of the wonders of the galaxy if you ask me. -- James Vega. 

[Iakus]

I don't care about percentages of female soldiers.

 

Just stop dressing female characters as Barbie dolls and strippers.