203 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

I don't care about percentages of female soldiers.

 

Just stop dressing female characters as Barbie dolls and strippers.

 

You not seen the latest ME4 concept art then?

 

[Reorte]

The reason I put rules in quotation marks is because I don't actually consider it a rule at all, but rather an arbitrary standard that we apply, as opposed to the ones the writers establish in the codex (which is something done right from the start in this case). It's not a rule that women should be less common in the military in Dragon Age, because it's not ridiculous or breaching some impenetrable boundary of reality that they would be, which is the reason I consider this trivial. If we want to discuss their personal motivation, then we're not going to get anywhere fast. We might as well argue whether or not most women in Thedas love or hate chocolate.

If it is an arbitrary standard and it's merely the result of real societies that it doesn't happen that often then fine, have it work differently in another society, although you have to think why it's rare on Earth. The logical conclusion is that it probably is ridiculous or breaching some impenetrable boundary (actually reality suggests it's not impenetrable but is hard to overcome), and other things we know suggests it's not entirely societal either (men on average are stronger than women, and in medieval-style hand-to-hand combat that's going to make quite a difference).

 

Being different for the sake of being different rarely works, if something is unusual it's not unreasonable to expect a convincing explanation as to why it's different. If the unusual is happening all the time in situations without a fundamental difference (things like dragons roaming the place aren't a fundamental difference because it's not relevant to who's doing the fighting) then you're killing suspension of disbelief for some, and relying on those not bothered by such things (or plain mistakes) isn't something to be proud of.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

 

Being different for the sake of being different rarely works, if something is unusual it's not unreasonable to expect a convincing explanation as to why it's different. If the unusual is happening all the time in situations without a fundamental difference (things like dragons roaming the place aren't a fundamental difference because it's not relevant to who's doing the fighting) then you're killing suspension of disbelief for some, and relying on those not bothered by such things (or plain mistakes) isn't something to be proud of.

 

I would agree, if Bioware games weren't already committed to rule of cool style of combat, rather than a more concrete attempt at realism. Even disregarding magic, we see this sort of thing all the time with players being able to dual wield long swords like they're paper, non-sensical whirlwind attack animations, players surviving being mauled by an Ogre/Dragon, etc. 

 

Granted, it's a trailer, but just looking at the Urn of Sacred Ashes video gives a pretty good idea of how your typical fantasy combat is approached. Personally, I don't consider it to be a big deal either way, but more women in melee combat isn't even close to a problem for me on the suspension of disbelief scale, just given all the other combat rules that are typically broken in Fantasy settings every few seconds. My two cents, at least. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Regarding the thread topic, I think throwing words like "mature" becomes dangerous since often it can feel like a buzz word, much like our friend the awesome button. 

 

Of course, I think a work can be simultaneously mature and immature at the same time and still be great. Star Wars is a perfect example. How many quotable lines did Han Solo, Luke, and Leia give us while shooting up storm troopers? A million, but I wouldn't call most of those scenes "mature", while at the same time applauding Luke's experience in "the cave" and confrontation with the Emperor as mature. 

 

I think maturity relates to how believable I can find the experience (given the setting), and how well each element serves in the overarching narrative. Everything should have a purpose, in essence. 

 

To be honest, I think Bioware games, including their early games, have quite a few immature aspects to them. 

[IntoTheDarkness]

....

 

Anyway, as for the topic of maturity, the thing that I feel would be best altered would be the nature of the power fantasy. Mass Effect's power fantasy was so profound that it's kind of an embarrassment of riches in terms of influence on the part of Shepard.

 

Shepard: You, random turian. Go fetch me a sandwich, then throw yourself out an airlock.

 

Turian: What? F*ck you, human.

 

Shepard: Do it!

 

Turian: OK.

 

I found that extremely disturbing, too. I don't mind being a hero, but Bioware's power fantasy is way over the top and the world feels too centred around the protagonist.

 

There are always people who want more though; I've seen people complaining about 'the illusion of choice' in Bioware games because 'they can't save lives or certain crews' and 'they can't kill someone they want to.' Jesus motherfucking Christ. Bioware game's narratives already suffer from making the protagonist demi-god and turning everyone else into decorations without their own agenda. If it get's worse, I might as well watch Teletubbies instead of playing Bioware games because the level of maturity would be about equal. People should graduate from the fantasy that they can do anything they want if they've passed their pre-teenhood.

[Farangbaa]

I found that extremely disturbing, too. I don't mind being a hero, but Bioware's power fantasy is way over the top and the world feels too centred around the protagonist.
 
There are always people who want more though; I've seen people complaining about 'the illusion of choice' in Bioware games because 'they can't save lives or certain crews' and 'they can't kill someone they want to.' Jesus motherfucking Christ. Bioware game's narratives already suffer from making the protagonist demi-god and turning everyone else into decorations without their own agenda. If it get's worse, I might as well watch Teletubbies instead of playing Bioware games because the level of maturity would be about equal. People should graduate from the fantasy that they can do anything they want if they've passed their pre-teenhood.

I would have this post for breakfast every day if it was eatable.

It's also one of the reasons people hate the ending: can't save everybody without sacrificing something.

[fhs33721]

Do you really want to use the Amazons as an example here?

 

A mythical society existing of nothing but females? Really? (btw, they weren't Greek)

As an example of female warriors in (very old) fiction to point out that they are a quite well established idea? Yes.

And I know that they weren't greek, I meant that  they are part of the greek mythology.

[Farangbaa]

As an example of female warriors in (very old) fiction to point out that they are a quite well established idea? Yes.
And I know that they weren't greek, I meant that  they are part of the greek mythology.

What else would an all women society field in battle?

The ancients weren't strangers to logic.

[Catastrophy]

No more combat heels please! And give the sexbots something decent to wear. I want decent sexy outfits not plump, blatant body part exposure. I'm sure VA does their best to create attractive characters. Why ruin a nice voice by insulting the eye?

[SporkFu]

It's not an insult to some eyes   

 

But I would like to see a return to combat armor for everyone, like in ME1. Out-of-combat, different story. I don't mind casual outfits then. 

[Farangbaa]

Just give everybody a goddamn suit when they're in the vacuum of space.

Especially Javik is hilarious. Helmet? Nah. Face mask that doesn't help **** but everybody else is wearing? Nah.
I'll go in unprotected. Fear my fierce Prothean head!

[Excella Gionne]

Can my new Female Character run around in a pole dancing outfit within the Alliance base? If so, I call that maturity.

[ZipZap2000]

I don't mind characters that look sexy and have substance (Liara, Samara, Jack, Tali) it's when you start making it the sum total of their existence (hi i'm Miranda look at my butt) that it becomes a problem.  Give them some personality beyond a stereotype, demonstrate their intelligence in a meaningful way. Have them remind the player they are more than bewbs (Traynor, Aria).

 

Women are sexy and smart the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[SporkFu]

I don't mind characters that look sexy and have substance (Liara, Samara, Jack, Tali) it's when you start making it the sum total of their existence (hi i'm Miranda look at my butt) that it becomes a problem.  Give them some personality beyond a stereotype, demonstrate their intelligence in a meaningful way. Have them remind the player they are more than bewbs (Traynor, Aria).

 

Women are sexy and smart the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Traynor, really? For me her character developed into quite an Alliance soldier. She had a ton of personality, displaying charm and naivete and a sense of humor, and genuine caring whether romanced or not, and demonstrated her intelligence more than once. ... and that voice. 

 

EDIT: Thanks to Psychevore, I realize I misread things. Apologies.

[Farangbaa]

I think he mentioned Traynor as an example of how it should be done.

I hate Traynor though. Walking around in my damned appartment in her underwear looking all irresistable. I made a Femshep once just to romance her.
 

[ZipZap2000]

That's what I meant about Traynor if you watch her in the hot tub she says "eyes are up here" Aria says "If I have to suffer that guy staring at my t*ts again..."

 

They both go out of their way to establish themselves as more than eye candy, it's a good thing.

 

Edit: Just saw your edit. No need to apologise.

[themikefest]

Traynor, really? For me her character developed into quite an Alliance soldier. She had a ton of personality, displaying charm and naivete and a sense of humor, and genuine caring whether romanced or not, and demonstrated her intelligence more than once. ... and that voice. 

 

EDIT: Thanks to Psychevore, I realize I misread things. Apologies.

Traynor is good. If you renegade or at least choose the bottm right dialogue throughout the game, she stands her ground and does it well.

 

At the beginning she's a shy woman in an atmosphere she's not familiar with and by the end of the game has grown a bit of a backbone. A good character. Too bad she wasn't in the previous games.

[ZipZap2000]

Mike maybe you can help me figure out how I changed her dialogue from "i don't think I could ever jump on a bomb" and gets yelled at by shep to "i almost said I didn't think I could jump on a bomb" and gets sheps approval?

 

Edit: I fluked it and prefer it that way.

[themikefest]

Mike maybe you can help me figure out how I changed her dialogue from "i don't think I could ever jump on a bomb" and gets yelled at by shep to "i almost said I didn't think I could jump on a bomb" and gets sheps approval?

 

Edit: I fluked it and prefer it that way.

The line is different if she's romanced.

[ZipZap2000]

But I was dudeshep? hm cheers anyway.

[von uber]

Aria reminds me of Vasir, who is another great female character.

In fact I think the Asari have some really good ones (Aria, Vasir, Aethyta, Anyala) who are also actually realistically dressed. If Samara actually wore a proper outfit then she would fit into this as well.

Traynor is also a great example. Miranda could have been brilliant; she started off really well (her introduction was great) then it went to pot.

[ZipZap2000]

There needs to be a matriarch Aethyta minigame, headbutting krogan, sending volus flying, I seriously love that character.

[Vazgen]

Mass Effect games are definitely 18+. You may enjoy new ME more if they go 25+ or something like that, but 18+ is good enough for me. Just, as mentioned before, the maturity needs to come more from the setting, story and character interactions than from blood, gore and sex - a balance Bioware had maintained quite well.

[Farangbaa]

Mass Effect games are definitely 18+. You may enjoy new ME more if they go 25+ or something like that, but 18+ is good enough for me. Just, as mentioned before, the maturity needs to come more from the setting, story and character interactions than from blood, gore and sex - a balance Bioware had maintained quite well.

 

What insane country do you live in that has age limits of 25+ for movies/games?

 

I.. I.. I don't even.

[Vazgen]

What insane country do you live in that has age limits of 25+ for movies/games?

 

I.. I.. I don't even.

 

We don't I'm speaking hypothetically What I was trying to say is that 18+ means 18/19 years old people can play that game and, let's face it, not all people of that age look for moral complexity in games. That's why it's important to have it balanced. The games have to be a little 'immature', if they are not, playing them will depress people instead of giving them hours of fun