203 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

The Bioware games that I have played have always operated on two distinct and separate levels: one being the relationships with the immediate cast (team) members, and the other being the the bigger picture of the plot. Rarely have those two threads crossed. During the buildup of anticipation between ME2 and 3 there was talk about a scene where Shepherd was attacked in their quarters, and would be called on to protect/rescue/sacrifice their LI. Obviously that didn't happen in the actual game, but would have been perhaps a more interesting dynamic.

 

Instead - the series seemed to me to descend into the trap of "grimness = matureness". If I make this more grim and more depressing them it'll be more mature and more artistic!

 

 

Of all the criticisms of Mass Effect 3 I've always felt this one had the least merit. With the backdrop of Mass Effect 3 being the most destructive war in the history of any of the current civilizations of the galaxy, with whole planets being laid to waste and billions or trillions being slaughtered, no other tone would have been appropriate for the story except one that was a bit dark and grim. A light tone would have been completely out of synch with what was going on outside the Normandy. The overall tone for Mass Effect 3, is one of the things the dev team got right.

 

Having said that, I do think the complaints that the original pre-EC endings were too dark and depressing had some worth. But the tone up until the chit-chat with the Catalyst was perfect.

[Farangbaa]

We don't I'm speaking hypothetically What I was trying to say is that 18+ means 18/19 years old people can play that game and, let's face it, not all people of that age look for moral complexity in games. That's why it's important to have it balanced. The games have to be a little 'immature', if they are not, playing them will depress people instead of giving them hours of fun

 

If you can find me an 18 or 19 year old, boy/girl/man/woman*, who'd object to a little more nudity where it is appropriate**, you get a cookie

 

*bible belt nutters and equivalents from other religions don't count. Though I doubt they'd play a game like ME to begin with (not that this has ever stopped them from whining. Like that nutter that claimed there was full frontal sodomy in Mass Effect.)

**like in the shower. Who in their right mind wears a bra in the shower? I mean.. I.. I.. I don't even.

[Vazgen]

If you can find me an 18 or 19 year old, boy/girl/man/woman*, who'd object to a little more nudity where it is appropriate**, you get a cookie

 

*bible belt nutters and equivalents from other religions don't count. Though I doubt they'd play a game like ME to begin with (not that this has ever stopped them from whining. Like that nutter that claimed there was full frontal sodomy in Mass Effect.)

**like in the shower. Who in their right mind wears a bra in the shower? I mean.. I.. I.. I don't even.

 

We seem to be saying the same thing With a lot of young people playing the game obviously some adult/gore content makes it sell a lot better. Focus should not be only on that though, it should be on all the components that make the game seem real - the point of maturity in games IMO. 

[Iakus]

Of all the criticisms of Mass Effect 3 I've always felt this one had the least merit. With the backdrop of Mass Effect 3 being the most destructive war in the history of any of the current civilizations of the galaxy, with whole planets being laid to waste and billions or trillions being slaughtered, no other tone would have been appropriate for the story except one that was a bit dark and grim. A light tone would have been completely out of synch with what was going on outside the Normandy. The overall tone for Mass Effect 3, is one of the things the dev team got right.

 

Having said that, I do think the complaints that the original pre-EC endings were too dark and depressing had some worth. But the tone up until the chit-chat with the Catalyst was perfect.

Sure the setting is pretty dark by design.  But the implication here seems to be that this automatically makes the story "deep". 

 

I wouldn't call a slasher flick deep or mature

[KaiserShep]

It doesn't make sense to say that the game is trying to be deeper based solely on its tone. It's more serious, but even the most simplistic plot can be serious. Where ME3 tried to get deep was with the Catalyst convo. It wouldn't matter what the tone was before that scene.

Maturity is a different matter. As one who relishes in the silliness of these sorts of stories, it's not much of a priority for me. Where I feel maturity matters most is in the way people react to your choices and their motivations. A story can be silly and be great. What's not great is when everyone accepts what you do like you crap eezo and pee victory.

[Iakus]

  A story can be silly and be great. 

 

As demonstrated by Citadel's popularity

[von uber]

Mass Effect games are definitely 18+.

 

Really?

 

 

Well in this respect they are I guess:

 

 

Mmm.. bloody chunks..

[Vazgen]

You really think this is not 18+? 

 

Link to the video

 

And this?

[Reorte]

Of all the criticisms of Mass Effect 3 I've always felt this one had the least merit. With the backdrop of Mass Effect 3 being the most destructive war in the history of any of the current civilizations of the galaxy, with whole planets being laid to waste and billions or trillions being slaughtered, no other tone would have been appropriate for the story except one that was a bit dark and grim. A light tone would have been completely out of synch with what was going on outside the Normandy. The overall tone for Mass Effect 3, is one of the things the dev team got right.

 

Having said that, I do think the complaints that the original pre-EC endings were too dark and depressing had some worth. But the tone up until the chit-chat with the Catalyst was perfect.

Whilst the tone fits the story the complaint that it was going too much down that particular path isn't necessarily invalid. After all the story was whatever they chose it to be - was it the right type of story for a Mass Effect game? And even if it was it doesn't invalidate the idea that someone thought "grimness == mature."

[von uber]

You really think this is not 18+? 

 

Link to the video

 

And this?

 

 

Well in this respect they are I guess:

 

 

Mmm.. bloody chunks..

 

 

[Reorte]

You really think this is not 18+? 

Then why be so damned shy about nudity then? There's something rather twisted about shirking away from sex and nudity, which is a normal and pleasurable part of life, but being quite happy with gruesome deaths. Just as long as the sex and nudity aren't gratuitious. I.e. make sure they're a convincing outcome of the character's actions and not just there because boobs sell games. The former is mature, the latter certainly isn't.

[Vazgen]

Then why be so damned shy about nudity then? There's something rather twisted about shirking away from sex and nudity, which is a normal and pleasurable part of life, but being quite happy with gruesome deaths. Just as long as the sex and nudity aren't gratuitious. I.e. make sure they're a convincing outcome of the character's actions and not just there because boobs sell games. The former is mature, the latter certainly isn't.

 

I agree but this is not a problem with the Bioware but rather a problem with the whole video game industry. Make a game with full frontal nudity and there will be such an outcry, ending will seem like a minor glitch. Witcher had, like 1 scene, and the developers released a "non-nude" version. I always viewed underwear sex in ME and DA weird, if you want to make a sex scene - make it, but don't throw in cover or something else, it just takes away from the scene.

[Reorte]

I agree but this is not a problem with the Bioware but rather a problem with the whole video game industry. Make a game with full frontal nudity and there will be such an outcry, ending will seem like a minor glitch. Witcher had, like 1 scene, and the developers released a "non-nude" version. I always viewed underwear sex in ME and DA weird, if you want to make a sex scene - make it, but don't throw in cover or something else, it just takes away from the scene.

Sadly true. Was there some non-nude version of The Witcher 2 (shudder)?

[Quarian Master Race]

I don't know if this has been brought up but you can't use underwear sex scenes as a criticism against the writers on grounds of "maturity" unless you prefer the only other option they have, which is camera angles that don't show the said areas of nude anatomy. No publisher is going to allow one of their AAA releases to get an NC17 rating and tank in sales in the biggest market for video games (U.S.) just to show pixel boobs.

Blame the ESRB and ultimately your stupid culture that considers graphic dismemberment less offensive than nudity, not BW. (although you should totally blame them for all the other male fanservice, gratuitous sexualization of female characters.)

Edit: Yeah, it totally was brought up

[Vazgen]

Sadly true. Was there some non-nude version of The Witcher 2 (shudder)?

 

In some countries they had cut content. In Australia, for example, a few scenes were cut from the game, like this guy mentions: Link

In short, I think, Witcher series opened the gates but not many risk to go through them

[Vazgen]

I don't know if this has been brought up but you can't use underwear sex scenes as a criticism against the writers on grounds of "maturity" unless you prefer the only other option they have, which is camera angles that don't show the said areas of nude anatomy. No publisher is going to allow one of their AAA releases to get an NC17 rating and tank in sales in the biggest market for video games (U.S.) just to show pixel boobs.

Blame the ESRB and ultimately your stupid culture that considers graphic dismemberment less offensive than nudity, not BW. (although you should totally blame them for all the other male fanservice, gratuitous sexualization of female characters.)
 

 

I'd pick camera angles over underwear scenes Is one scene enough to receive that rating?

[von uber]

I don't know if this has been brought up but you can't use underwear sex scenes as a criticism against the writers on grounds of "maturity" unless you prefer the only other option they have, which is camera angles that don't show the said areas of nude anatomy. No publisher is going to allow one of their AAA releases to get an NC17 rating and tank in sales in the biggest market for video games (U.S.) just to show pixel boobs.

Blame the ESRB and ultimately your stupid culture that considers graphic dismemberment less offensive than nudity, not BW. (although you should totally blame them for all the other male fanservice, gratuitous sexualization of female characters.)

Edit: Yeah, it totally was brought up

 

Witcher 2 begs to differ as they did this simple solution - two versions, you repressed Americans get the 'won't somebody please think of the childen!' version, the rest of the world get the grown up version.

 

And just to add, the difference between mature and adults only on ESRB is 17+ or 18+. That's one year.

[Quarian Master Race]

Witcher 2 begs to differ as they did this simple solution - two versions, you repressed Americans get the 'won't somebody please think of the childen!' version, the rest of the world get the grown up version.

A feasible solution, though I would rather not deal with American fanboy rants on how it ruins the game that they can't see Liara's boobs, while the internet is basically 90% pornography

 

 

And just to add, the difference between mature and adults only on ESRB is 17+ or 18+. That's one year.

Doesn't matter. To Americans, "M" rating much like an "R" rating in movies just means there could be such inoffensive and harmless things as graphic dismemberment and instructions on the use of illegal drugs, compared to NC17 or X ratings which means with almost 100% certainty there are boobs that will melt your poor child's fragile brain.

[Han Shot First]

Witcher 2 begs to differ as they did this simple solution - two versions, you repressed Americans get the 'won't somebody please think of the childen!' version, the rest of the world get the grown up version.

 

And just to add, the difference between mature and adults only on ESRB is 17+ or 18+. That's one year.

 

Wut?

 

The American version included the nudity found in European versions. I think you're getting confused with the controversy in Australia, which last I checked...was not in the United States. Not that my own country hasn't had similar issues in the past (see the Fox News controversy involving Mass Effect 1), but in this case you might want to put the brakes on the 'blame America' bandwagon.

 

On 3 May 2011, Namco Bandai confirmed that the Australian release of the game would be modified to meet the MA15+ rating. The edit specifically relates to a side quest in which Geralt is offered sex as a reward for completing the quest. The Australian version will see Geralt decline the offer automatically.[17] Three weeks prior to this announcement, the game was removed from the Australian Steam store, causing outrage amongst the Australian gaming community.[18] Additionally, CD Projekt RED's digital distribution service GOG.com announced that the price of the Australian version would be increased due to licensing issues, but that customers could still pre-order the game for its original price 17 hours before the change.

 

Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings

[von uber]

 

Wut?

 

The American version included the nudity found in European versions. I think you're getting confused with the controversy in Australia, which last I checked...was not in the United States. Not that my own country hasn't had similar issues in the past (see the Fox News controversy involving Mass Effect 1), but in this case you might want to put the brakes on the 'blame America' bandwagon.

 

 

 

 

Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings

 

My apologies, I retract that statement.. which only makes underwear showering worse, no?

And yes, Australia is even worse when it comes to games.

[Quarian Master Race]

I just read that thing on Witcher 2 (never heard of it before), and it seems that the official reason for the rating change was that you are offered sex by a female NPC as a reward for a mission, not that there is nudity. I don't find that nearly as disagreeable as it could be argued that such portrayal promotes offensive sterotypes against women even without nudity, though that doesn't explain why the same sexist trope is allowed to show up in plenty of other games so maybe it is just the "official" reason.

[Reorte]

Are they bothered about it only being allowed to be sold to over 18s? Looking at some of the boxes on my shelf Dragon Age Origins + Awakenings and ME2 both have 18s (the DA one is the UK, not sure where the ME2 box has come from since it's not a UK symbol and I thought it was a 15 until I looked).

[Quarian Master Race]

Are they bothered about it only being allowed to be sold to over 18s? Looking at some of the boxes on my shelf Dragon Age Origins + Awakenings and ME2 both have 18s (the DA one is the UK, not sure where the ME2 box has come from since it's not a UK symbol and I thought it was a 15 until I looked).

Major retailers in the US usually won't even carry NC17 (highest rated) games, so if you don't meet the requirements to be under that rating than your game is not going to sell even half as well.

They have no such reservations about "M" rated games, which have basically the same age limit but no graphic sexual content. Of secondary concern is the cultural factor that plenty of parents will buy "M" rated games for their teenage kids because violence isn't a big deal to them, but sex would be. US is too big of a market to ignore these considerations.

As mentioned, multiple versions of the game for different markets could easily solve this issue.

[von uber]

The problem is parents buying games for their kids who are too young to be playing M (17+) rated games, let alone 18+.

That's the real issue.

[Cknarf]

"Happy 16th birthday, son.  I bought you a 3000 lb death machine, capable of 100+ Miles per hour."

"Wow! Thanks, dad! I'm going to go by an M rated game."

*GASP!*