7969 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhryaen]

So wait, male noble hunters do exist? I remember Zerlinda, a Mining Caste woman, fell in love with a casteless man who ended up just being a massive dick and running away at the first chance he got upon her having a boy instead of a girl, but I always figured that was just two people from different backgrounds meeting (since Mining Caste is hardly something a noble hunter would go for). I had also always wondered why we only ever saw or heard about female noble hunters.

 

Like one would think that either way it'd be great. Yeah it'd have to be a girl to have the caste remain and the casteless ascend, but it'd still be another child. And thanks to Astyth's actions, women can fight on the front lines now (even if they'd be side-eyed for it for a few reasons). 

 

I dunno it just seems like we should hear more about male noble hunters to me. Maybe instead of how the women have to be trained in things like poetry, sewing, singing, dancing, etc. the men would be trained in things that would make them seem like "A Bronto Among Nugs". Beraht, and other Dwarves, act as patrons to prospective noble hunters to allow them to learn these things and make necessary bribes to ensure access. One would think there might be similar patrons to the male casteless whom would see them say undertake things like tactics, smithery, mining, etc. 

 

Of course this is all speculative, and of course would also draw the potential risk of having a failed noble hunter lead a revolt of the casteless, which may be why it doesn't happen. The women are groomed in things that make them alluring and sophisticated, but not a threat (which may also be why Vartag is keeping Rica out of the Assembly, again in my mind on Bhelen's orders). 

 

I never quite understood the caste-lineage-determinacy law though. According to its logic essentially the only child that keeps its caste in a pairing with a casteless would be the daughter of a caste-member mother or the son of a caste-member father. Odd law, or am I reading it wrong?

 

DAWiki:

 

Zerlinda was seduced by a casteless man who - for personal gain - sought to have a daughter with her, because a child of the same sex parent is of the same caste, and would (being the father) allow him to live with Zerlinda's family. However, when Zerlinda bore a son, he abandoned her.

 

So then a noble-hunter of either sex is a 50/50 risk regarding lineage. And Bhelen was just as much at risk of ending up with a casteless kid as Zerlinda was, just with a daughter rather than a son (and not about to be kicked into Dust Town if Rica had had a girl). Hard to see the sociological incentive for a divisive law with no clear advantage based on one of the main factors- sex or station. Maybe just to complicate inter-caste marriage enough to discourage it? But if it's true, we should be seeing no predominance of either sex casteless offering themselves on Orzammar streets... unless "noble" mothers are more concerned about the pregnancy-risk aspect than "noble" fathers. Merely "providing the raw materials" for a 50/50 chance baby isn't quite as in-your-face as carrying a 50/50 chance baby to term for however many months and possibly dying in childbirth. So Bhelen's risk-taking wasn't quite as... personal. Besides, didn't Bhelen have the male child with Rica before actually marrying her? Might never have bothered with her if she'd bore him a daughter.

 

EDIT: Another situation different for the caste-member mother would be the pregnancy risk while having a male casteless "concubine" just for sex while also maintaining a same-caste relationship. Even if there were a law permitting polygamy, if she were to get pregnant, who would know who the father was? And for precaution's sake (wouldn't want to accidentally empower an unentitled casteless kid after all) the kid would have to be presumed from the casteless parent.

 

But why would the casteless guy leave Zerlinda if he was already in? He still had another chance with her, no? What did he have to lose? Not exactly unlimited chances given his limited means, but how was it not worth the try? Schmuck on various levels. Zerlinda, you hopeless romantic...

 

But you bring up another question: whether noble hunters would go for, say, a Mining Caste member. After all, it's a step up for the casteless regardless. It would just be a matter of how much the casteless would "settle" for- what station they thought they could "purchase" (or who they liked, of course). For the Mining Caste member, marrying a casteless has the same appeal (or lack) as for any other caste, just with less to barter with or ultimately offer, resource-wise. I mean, they're called noble-hunters, but everyone outside Dust Town is sitting much prettier than any casteless slummer. (Can't recall if there's even a "Nobility Caste" or if you can have various nobles from any caste- social differentiation into, say, well-off miners and grunt miners.) Again, if the Assembly were applying pressure to orchestrate society like the qun do, Orzammar would probably be mostly sticking noble hunters with the warrior caste. But the arbitrary machinery of the noble hunter path remains a means of unrestricted social mobility for a casteless dwarf, even if the eons-long population/military crises is, as ever, looming.

[Bhryaen]

Maybe sex integration is fairly advanced in Orzammar but not so complete as to say there's full social equality: like perhaps only men actually get leadership positions in the Assembly even if women are completely welcome to join, vote, participate. I think there was at least one female Orzammar monarch though, wasn't there?

Good question! So I asked DAWiki... This is what I'd been remembering:

 

Getha: One of few queens mentioned by name. In the second year of her reign the entire Legion of Steel was sent to recover the Paragon Caridin but none returned. Due to the incalculable loss of the Legion of Steel, Queen Getha was deposed.

 

So a female monarch has only ever been mentioned in DA's lore once, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's only ever been one.

[draken-heart]

Cool Duster! But I don't think you need to worry about whether a story is "desired" (other than by you) before posting it. Regardless I'd say it's welcome on this thread. More dorfy stories!

 

I just want to make sure people do not get angry with what I post. If they do not want, I won't post.

[Bhryaen]

Trespasser letter from Leliana...

 

Spoiler

I cannot possibly hire anyone to a permanent position without first observing them in a room full of baby nugs...

 

 And she wants me to lend her Scout Harding so she can spend valuable Inquisition time collecting baby nugs...

 

Why did I make her Divine again?

[Tishina]

There really is no evidence beyond a couple of comments by individuals that women don't hold equal positions in Orzammar society. It's easy to pick out the one or two comments (the one made to Risha, after all, may have been due to her status which was precarious at best - if something happened to her son, she would be casteless again) and the origin of the Silent Sisters which is essentially ANCIENT history, and ignore all the other signs that women currently have no actual barriers. If you play a female Aeducan, your father is considering passing over your older brother for you, and there's not a single hint that that would be considered unusual.

 

Queen Valda Aeducan is one of those mentioned. King Endrin comments that your grandmother's armor looks good on you if you are a female Aeducan. Lady Helmi appears to be head of House Helmi.  Denek Helmi is her son and while he's Deshyr, he answers to her. Lady Dace represents House Dace as deshyr in the Assembly. There are a number of female deshyrs who aren't named shown in the Assembly itself. You can overhear a smithcaste mother urging her daughter to polish her work at the forge so she can be as good as Branka. The tavern owner is a woman. The head of the Carta is a woman.

 

I admit I fume every time I see the section of the dwarf entry in the DA wiki that talks about women's subordinate place as basically breeders in Orzammar. It was clearly written by someone who heard nothing except what they wanted to throughout the entire city and interpreted it they way that person wanted to Orzammar to be, not how it actually was. I swear, this topic goes through every month or so, and I need to just collect all my responses so I can simply cut and paste them, lol. The entire d****d reason I like playing dwarves is how obvious it was that women are just as bad**s and powerful as dwarven men. We don't even have firm evidence that arranged marriages are particularly common even among nobles. A few examples aren't evidence of anything except that they exist, not that they're common (we have other evidence that some people choose their own spouses, within limits.)

 

Edit: I should add (reading back briefly through some of the discussion) that there's not much evidence that female warriors are discouraged either. They're mentioned in a number of cases. And it's actually fairly silly to assume sons are preferred over daughters. Daughters mean grandchildren, and can be fighters who can defend Orzammar even if they don't go into the Deep Roads much (I do think they'd discourage pregnant women from taking risks.) Again, it's easy to take a few comments and ignore the others. The devs have said women generally can hold equal positions through Thedas (barring the two chantries,) but that there are individual bigots you can run into.

[Tishina]

I never quite understood the caste-lineage-determinacy law though. According to its logic essentially the only child that keeps its caste in a pairing with a casteless would be the daughter of a caste-member mother or the son of a caste-member father. Odd law, or am I reading it wrong?

 

DAWiki:

 

 

So then a noble-hunter of either sex is a 50/50 risk regarding lineage. And Bhelen was just as much at risk of ending up with a casteless kid as Zerlinda was, just with a daughter rather than a son (and not about to be kicked into Dust Town if Rica had had a girl). Hard to see the sociological incentive for a divisive law with no clear advantage based on one of the main factors- sex or station. Maybe just to complicate inter-caste marriage enough to discourage it? But if it's true, we should be seeing no predominance of either sex casteless offering themselves on Orzammar streets... unless "noble" mothers are more concerned about the pregnancy-risk aspect than "noble" fathers. Merely "providing the raw materials" for a 50/50 chance baby isn't quite as in-your-face as carrying a 50/50 chance baby to term for however many months and possibly dying in childbirth. So Bhelen's risk-taking wasn't quite as... personal. Besides, didn't Bhelen have the male child with Rica before actually marrying her? Might never have bothered with her if she'd bore him a daughter.

 

EDIT: Another situation different for the caste-member mother would be the pregnancy risk while having a male casteless "concubine" just for sex while also maintaining a same-caste relationship. Even if there were a law permitting polygamy, if she were to get pregnant, who would know who the father was? And for precaution's sake (wouldn't want to accidentally empower an unentitled casteless kid after all) the kid would have to be presumed from the casteless parent.

 

But why would the casteless guy leave Zerlinda if he was already in? He still had another chance with her, no? What did he have to lose? Not exactly unlimited chances given his limited means, but how was it not worth the try? Schmuck on various levels. Zerlinda, you hopeless romantic...

*snip*

Actually, there's nothing that odd about the caste lineage, it's just not what we're used to. It's one of the reasons I'm so frustrated with people who want to paint Orzammar as patriarchal. Women's lineages are just as important as men's; and your male ancestors are fairly irrelevant if you're a woman. But that is also exactly why a woman with caste would very rarely take a chance on a casteless, or even lower caste, man. The advantage is all on his side, and the risk is all on hers (unless you consider pregnancy, childbirth, and possibly a child you have to give up to be trivial?) However, I'd imagine a lot of high caste women might have children with high caste men without being married...there's no risk to the child's caste, and your family gains children even if you don't want to get married. Men take no risk other than having a casteless child that they can presumably ignore. No, Bhelen did not marry Rica even after the son was born, she was just a concubine, not the same thing. It was after the Warden was made a paragon and she had permanent caste through her sibling that he married her.

 

The implication with Zerlinda was that women's fertility is low enough that he assumed she wouldn't get pregnant again for a while (he doesn't belong to her caste until she has a daughter, so he hadn't gained anything.) So he left her looking for a better prospect. I suspect there are a lot of social climbers attempting the same thing, they just aren't called noble hunters.

[TEWR]

So I recently got a new job with great pay (tishina/tishinada and gilsa, I think you two already saw my tumblr post about it) and one of the things that makes me happy as a result of it is I can commission pictures again for characters, whether of my OCs for DA or for my novel.

 

Anyone know any good artists who will draw Dwarves? Far as I know there aren't many, and I'm sure some artists probably won't do it.

[Tishina]

So I recently got a new job with great pay (tishina/tishinada and gilsa, I think you two already saw my tumblr post about it) and one of the things that makes me happy as a result of it is I can commission pictures again for characters, whether of my OCs for DA or for my novel.

 

Anyone know any good artists who will draw Dwarves? Far as I know there aren't many, and I'm sure some artists probably won't do it.

I've reblogged a list a couple of times on Tumblr, let me check...

 

And congrats again!

[TEWR]

Thank you! 

[Tishina]

Ugh, I can't find it quickly, I must not have tagged it correctly. Does anyone else have the list that goes around of artists who will take dwarf commissions?

[TEWR]

Ah I found it on my blog! I was just digging through my reference tag to get some muse for my story and managed to find it. Posting it here so we all can have it.

 

Link

 

All listed are artists who have stated they have an interest in drawing dwarves on commission or requests. This is not a comprehensive list, and if interested in being listed, please send me an ask! I’ll gladly update it as time goes on, and recommend anyone who wants an up-to-date version, to go to the source for themselves. 

Commissions:

• arkngthamz: commission info
• flockofflamingos: commission info
• officialvarrictethras: commission info
• ellustration: commission info
• nennesis: commission info
• dgcakes: commission info
• leepart: commission info
• andrea-draws: commission info
• artofthearmadillo: commission info
• wardenmahariel: commission info
• madamemadwoman: commission info
• sheebah: commission info
• lapaduza: commission info
• scientafantasia: commission info
• triaelf9: commission info
• kurokomui: commission info
• swaggielab: commission info
• mrgabel: commission info

Open to commissions, no set price list:

• bigbuffpugpuff
• pencilsmudges

Open to requests:

• faunsart

 

•  

[Bhryaen]

But that is also exactly why a woman with caste would very rarely take a chance on a casteless, or even lower caste, man. The advantage is all on his side, and the risk is all on hers (unless you consider pregnancy, childbirth, and possibly a child you have to give up to be trivial?)

That's exactly what I was getting at when I said, "Merely 'providing the raw materials' for a 50/50 chance baby isn't quite as in-your-face as carrying a 50/50 chance baby to term for however many months and possibly dying in childbirth. So Bhelen's risk-taking wasn't quite as... personal."

 

What I meant by the Orzammar lineage system being "odd" was that it doesn't follow a pattern that makes conspicuous sense. It's already a system that penalizes cross-caste marriage, so that one might be inclined to describe that as the system's purpose, but yet it doesn't go all the way since it does completely allow for it under the same sex lineage rule that applies half the time. Since that extra rule doesn't favor a particular sex or a caste, the resulting law is clearly not designed to set an advantage for one group over another or protect one group against another. It just sort of sits there arbitrarily applying half the time. So it begs the question of why it's there at all. What purpose can the same sex exception possibly serve? Merely to make the law more palatable by adding a sense of randomness to the process? Why not just remove the extra provision and make anyone who marries into a higher caste simply have higher caste children? Or deny all children from lower-castes established at that lower caste? What social behavior is it sustaining/ encouraging/ endorsing? Making mothers raise daughters and fathers raise sons? What's the reasoning for the same-sex lineage waffle? Is there any? Or it is just cuz? There's a specific reason that IRL societies favor matrilineal or patrilineal systems of lineage determination- some tradition, some message, some reason- hence, for ex., dowries come up as a price to compensate the family that's losing one of one's own line to another family. But the Orzammar system doesn't really achieve anything definitive socially with its randomly half-implemented penalty for marrying below one's caste. So, though it certainly does work- just as a rule to, say, make everyone with a last name longer than 6 letters have one penalty where everyone with one 6 or less gets another penalty, clearly could work- the point of implementing it. "Odd" seemed a polite term for it.

[90s Kai]

Hey! I found a thing! Of our favorite scout no less.

 

Spoiler

 

Enjoy! 

[Tishina]

That's exactly what I was getting at when I said, "Merely 'providing the raw materials' for a 50/50 chance baby isn't quite as in-your-face as carrying a 50/50 chance baby to term for however many months and possibly dying in childbirth. So Bhelen's risk-taking wasn't quite as... personal."

 

What I meant by the Orzammar lineage system being "odd" was that it doesn't follow a pattern that makes conspicuous sense. It's already a system that penalizes cross-caste marriage, so that one might be inclined to describe that as the system's purpose, but yet it doesn't go all the way since it does completely allow for it under the same sex lineage rule that applies half the time. Since that extra rule doesn't favor a particular sex or a caste, the resulting law is clearly not designed to set an advantage for one group over another or protect one group against another. It just sort of sits there arbitrarily applying half the time. So it begs the question of why it's there at all. What purpose can the same sex exception possibly serve? Merely to make the law more palatable by adding a sense of randomness to the process? Why not just remove the extra provision and make anyone who marries into a higher caste simply have higher caste children? Or deny all children from lower-castes established at that lower caste? What social behavior is it sustaining/ encouraging/ endorsing? Making mothers raise daughters and fathers raise sons? What's the reasoning for the same-sex lineage waffle? Is there any? Or it is just cuz? There's a specific reason that IRL societies favor matrilineal or patrilineal systems of lineage determination- some tradition, some message, some reason- hence, for ex., dowries come up as a price to compensate the family that's losing one of one's own line to another family. But the Orzammar system doesn't really achieve anything definitive socially with its randomly half-implemented penalty for marrying below one's caste. So, though it certainly does work- just as a rule to, say, make everyone with a last name longer than 6 letters have one penalty where everyone with one 6 or less gets another penalty, clearly could work- the point of implementing it. "Odd" seemed a polite term for it.

It's caste itself that's transmitted through the same sex lineage. There is no caste without that lineage. It actually makes perfect sense (if you want complicated rules of descent, try native Hawaiian and some of the other Pacific Islanders, lol) and bi-lineal systems do and have existed irl. In fact, westerners are finally figuring out that they have WAY over-simplified the descent systems they've encountered, trying to fit them into what they understand. While they may not encourage it, do we know that they penalize cross-caste marriage (or in any way other than the lineage-caste transmission?) Branka was smith caste and Oghren was warrior caste, so he was from a higher caste until she was elevated to paragon. But the marriage was arranged by their families. If they discouraged it actively, why would they marry someone who should have been near the top of the list of eligible men for the warrior caste (he was a hot shot until his disgrace in the Proving after she left?) He didn't become a drunk until after she left either, which might have explained them marrying him down? 

 

As for the logic, what the h**l is the logic in a patriarchal system of erasing all women in the lineage (or the reverse in a matriarchal system?) A bi-lineal system preserves all lineages - male and female. Think about it, a male-only lineage essentially erases me as a woman from their history and any accomplishments or honors I achieve begin and end with me. I transmit nothing, none of my descendants will claim anything I did in a patriarchal system because I'm not in the lineage except as an incubator (crude, but that's really what it comes down to.) And it's one of the strongest reasons I have for arguing that there's nothing patriarchal about Orzammar. Unless someone loses caste, no one is lost from the dwarf's history as long as they have children. The caste system is a relic that is helping destroy the dwarves. But the bi-lineal system of descent preserves the best of their entire history, not just half of it.

 

Dowries and brideprices, btw, aren't necessarily tied to a lineage system in Thedas. If you play a CE in DAO (and I played both as a male and as a female because it's the one Origin with some significant content that differs between the two,) you find out your father paid a brideprice to your future husband or wife's family because their community is losing someone and yours is gaining. No connection to lineage itself. It isn't clear, but I tend to think the elves in game are bi-lineal to an extent, and the person who moves to the other community or clan isn't by gender, but by who is most vital to their group (a Keeper's First would be more vital than one of several dozen hunters, after all.) The rank of a person's lineage could also possibly play a role in the Dalish case; they haven't entirely clarified how the last names are transmitted.

 

Edited: Adding that the lineage system appears to be the way of discouraging mixed caste marriages - half your children may be in a lower caste. There doesn't appear to be any other punishment, though I suspect you lose a lot of status if you're noble.

[Bhryaen]

If you play a CE in DAO (and I played both as a male and as a female because it's the one Origin with some significant content that differs between the two,)

Aww, but Gorim as love interest vs chum was kinda significant...

 

It's caste itself that's transmitted through the same sex lineage. There is no caste without that lineage. It actually makes perfect sense (if you want complicated rules of descent, try native Hawaiian and some of the other Pacific Islanders, lol) and bi-lineal systems do and have existed irl. In fact, westerners are finally figuring out that they have WAY over-simplified the descent systems they've encountered, trying to fit them into what they understand. While they may not encourage it, do we know that they penalize cross-caste marriage (or in any way other than the lineage-caste transmission?) Branka was smith caste and Oghren was warrior caste, so he was from a higher caste until she was elevated to paragon. But the marriage was arranged by their families. If they discouraged it actively, why would they marry someone who should have been near the top of the list of eligible men for the warrior caste (he was a hot shot until his disgrace in the Proving after she left?) He didn't become a drunk until after she left either, which might have explained them marrying him down? 

 

As for the logic, what the h**l is the logic in a patriarchal system of erasing all women in the lineage (or the reverse in a matriarchal system?) A bi-lineal system preserves all lineages - male and female. Think about it, a male-only lineage essentially erases me as a woman from their history and any accomplishments or honors I achieve begin and end with me. I transmit nothing, none of my descendants will claim anything I did in a patriarchal system because I'm not in the lineage except as an incubator (crude, but that's really what it comes down to.) And it's one of the strongest reasons I have for arguing that there's nothing patriarchal about Orzammar. Unless someone loses caste, no one is lost from the dwarf's history as long as they have children. The caste system is a relic that is helping destroy the dwarves. But the bi-lineal system of descent preserves the best of their entire history, not just half of it.

 

Dowries and brideprices, btw, aren't necessarily tied to a lineage system in Thedas. If you play a CE in DAO (and I played both as a male and as a female because it's the one Origin with some significant content that differs between the two,) you find out your father paid a brideprice to your future husband or wife's family because their community is losing someone and yours is gaining. No connection to lineage itself. It isn't clear, but I tend to think the elves in game are bi-lineal to an extent, and the person who moves to the other community or clan isn't by gender, but by who is most vital to their group (a Keeper's First would be more vital than one of several dozen hunters, after all.) The rank of a person's lineage could also possibly play a role in the Dalish case; they haven't entirely clarified how the last names are transmitted.

 

Edited: Adding that the lineage system appears to be the way of discouraging mixed caste marriages - half your children may be in a lower caste. There doesn't appear to be any other punishment, though I suspect you lose a lot of status if you're noble.

 

True about the CE father's use of dowries in a bilateral way. It was apparently a weaker example than I'd intended. The main reason for lineality at all is making the tracing of bloodlines fairly easy and straight-foward- obviously important in a caste-stratified society like Orzammar, but even in societies based on principles of universal social equality. But the point of them ultimately seems more technical than social: if one name doesn't cancel another in marriage, the accumulation of surnames becomes ridiculously long. "Hi, I'm Bof Aeducan-Helmi-Brosca(twice)-Harrowmont(striken)-Ortan-Hirol-Ivo(thrice)-Stonehammer... but you can just call me Bof." Signatures would be a serious pain, lots more real estate would be required on Shaperate walls, and how would Bhelen determine decisively who warranted murdering among the potential Harrowmonts? Yet it's the only truly inclusive approach, and I believe it has been tried IRL (and abandoned) in some societies. Whether it necessarily gets so ridiculous as to be naturally eschewed is debatable- but lineality does tend to simplify matters- arguably painfully oversimplify. But that would be the primary "logic" (this is why I intentionally used the word "reason" rather than "logic") behind not abolishing lineality altogether.

 

I also don't see a unilineal system as being quite so cruel as "erasing" people, particularly as they're still acknowledged as people and part of some lineage, just without one's original surname. Certainly no one would disqualify me being, say, a proven descendant of Madame Curie just because I'm not a Curie. (And no one would ignore it if Jeffrey Dahmer were my grandfather on my mother's side.) But the point is valid that if one is going to have any lineage system, why make it unilineal? Again, unileality makes things the simplest, but the Orzammar method isn't exactly burdensomely complex. I don't know what the ambilineal (new vocabulary! cheers!) systems of SE Asia (as well as the Yorubans in West Africa apparently) look like, but Orzammar has a fairly brutally simple version that doesn't side with the father's or mother's line exclusively. The thing is, it's still brutal: half the population will still lose their lineage- not to mention that the ones keeping their lineage are also potentially worse off. And in the ambilineal system you'll have siblings that don't all correspond to the same lineage- a not insignificant source of resentment. It's just that it's not basing the brutal axe's chop exclusively on one or another parent's sex. I think you've convinced me now why a society might implement it over a unilineal system- i.e., for purposes of social equality. Better that neither family's side in a marriage be automatically "erased..." at least until the sex of the child is known...

 

But in Orzammar that brutality is primarily due to the caste system, as you say. This is why I still don't see why they'd create a lineal system that works half the time in the interests of the lower castes- or not at least make addendums to the ambilineal system that seek to minimize the lower caste benefits. If they're going to abolish the caste system, an equitable lineal system then applies well. If they're going to maintain caste disparities, the same-sex rule (or even a unilineal system) makes circumventing the caste system fairly reliable- no less reliable than tossing a coin anyway, and there are millions of people who play lotteries every day who have a 1 in 10 billion or so chance of winning. I wonder how they handled/handle it in India (probably the culture Orzammar's social system is based on). I thought it was pretty much a matter of marriage/children with a lower caste means nothing but disgrace and shunning, the severity depending on how "low" down the caste tree you've "stooped." This is why it looks more like Orzammar should have the same: no special provisions for some casteless "dust" to waft up into society's upper echelons. Why is it that the King can sleep with an untouchable and suddenly (because it was a boy) they're not untouchable anymore? Was Rica a non-person before or not? The dissonance created is glaring, enough to make the unwarrantedness of the caste system an unavoidable subject- yet it's not questioned. Does the caste system's cruel rhetoric mean anything it says at all? How can a hybrid equity/disparity social structure have come about? At some point it has to account for its inconsistency.

 

I suppose we could look at Orzammar as a society in transition despite its purported extolling of the virtues of tradition. The caste system has already proven itself an achilles heel for dwarven unity against their foes- the source of immeasurable needless loss for dwarven society and impacting directly on dwarven survival. With such odds against dwarven existence, why fuss with caste distinctions that reduce the number of recognized dwarves? Everyone knows it should be broken entirely, but the "highest" castes aren't exactly going to just abolish their "lofty" social position, and not even the Servant Caste wants to abandon the security of being not-casteless. Yet somewhere in the mix of dwarven history the ambilineal system slipped through to become universal to all castes (even the "not-caste") to enable circumnavigation of caste rigidity. Perhaps the permission of the 50-50 rule was a sort of backdoor attempt at some point to break the caste system- or a reform that appeased people's otherwise more palpable concerns about its threat. "But halfsies you get to keep your kid's caste! Not all bad, right?" "Aw, OK. Then I'm sticking with the fact that casteless are a bunch of nug droppings, am I right?! Oh, I didn't mean to imply anything about your daughter, King Bhelen..." "Or my son..." Only in that way does the 50-50 exception seem less "odd."

[Gilsa]

I really ought to start setting side money in my Paypal account ($10 here and there) again for commissions. I had wanted one with my canon and Blackwall, but his main story was such a bummer. It was self-flagellation galore when it came to fan art. Now that they have a decisively happy ending, I love what Merela did for Cassandra x Fjalar and will be looking for a similar vibe. The last time I commissioned my dwarf in a relationship, it was with Gorim (five years ago, wow).

 

http://payroo.devian...-Time-164444353

 

[Bhryaen]

It was so hard to return to Denerim for my FemDN Klydia (who was close to Gorim), having to hear him auto-resort to the usual impersonal, "Dwarven crafts! Straight from Orzammar!" Oh, come on, Gorry! At least give 'er a "Heya" every now and then when she's in town!

[Spectre4hire]

It was so hard to return to Denerim for my FemDN Klydia (who was close to Gorim), having to hear him auto-resort to the usual impersonal, "Dwarven crafts! Straight from Orzammar!" Oh, come on, Gorry! At least give 'er a "Heya" every now and then when she's in town!

 

He has to play it casual in case his wife or father in law shows up. 

[Tishina]

Aww, but Gorim as love interest vs chum was kinda significant...

 

 

True about the CE father's use of dowries in a bilateral way. It was apparently a weaker example than I'd intended. The main reason for lineality at all is making the tracing of bloodlines fairly easy and straight-foward- obviously important in a caste-stratified society like Orzammar, but even in societies based on principles of universal social equality. But the point of them ultimately seems more technical than social: if one name doesn't cancel another in marriage, the accumulation of surnames becomes ridiculously long. "Hi, I'm Bof Aeducan-Helmi-Brosca(twice)-Harrowmont(striken)-Ortan-Hirol-Ivo(thrice)-Stonehammer... but you can just call me Bof." Signatures would be a serious pain, lots more real estate would be required on Shaperate walls, and how would Bhelen determine decisively who warranted murdering among the potential Harrowmonts? Yet it's the only truly inclusive approach, and I believe it has been tried IRL (and abandoned) in some societies. Whether it necessarily gets so ridiculous as to be naturally eschewed is debatable- but lineality does tend to simplify matters- arguably painfully oversimplify. But that would be the primary "logic" (this is why I intentionally used the word "reason" rather than "logic") behind not abolishing lineality altogether.

 

I also don't see a unilineal system as being quite so cruel as "erasing" people, particularly as they're still acknowledged as people and part of some lineage, just without one's original surname. Certainly no one would disqualify me being, say, a proven descendant of Madame Curie just because I'm not a Curie. (And no one would ignore it if Jeffrey Dahmer were my grandfather on my mother's side.) But the point is valid that if one is going to have any lineage system, why make it unilineal? Again, unileality makes things the simplest, but the Orzammar method isn't exactly burdensomely complex. I don't know what the ambilineal (new vocabulary! cheers!) systems of SE Asia (as well as the Yorubans in West Africa apparently) look like, but Orzammar has a fairly brutally simple version that doesn't side with the father's or mother's line exclusively. The thing is, it's still brutal: half the population will still lose their lineage- not to mention that the ones keeping their lineage are also potentially worse off. And in the ambilineal system you'll have siblings that don't all correspond to the same lineage- a not insignificant source of resentment. It's just that it's not basing the brutal axe's chop exclusively on one or another parent's sex. I think you've convinced me now why a society might implement it over a unilineal system- i.e., for purposes of social equality. Better that neither family's side in a marriage be automatically "erased..." at least until the sex of the child is known...

 

But in Orzammar that brutality is primarily due to the caste system, as you say. This is why I still don't see why they'd create a lineal system that works half the time in the interests of the lower castes- or not at least make addendums to the ambilineal system that seek to minimize the lower caste benefits. If they're going to abolish the caste system, an equitable lineal system then applies well. If they're going to maintain caste disparities, the same-sex rule (or even a unilineal system) makes circumventing the caste system fairly reliable- no less reliable than tossing a coin anyway, and there are millions of people who play lotteries every day who have a 1 in 10 billion or so chance of winning. I wonder how they handled/handle it in India (probably the culture Orzammar's social system is based on). I thought it was pretty much a matter of marriage/children with a lower caste means nothing but disgrace and shunning, the severity depending on how "low" down the caste tree you've "stooped." This is why it looks more like Orzammar should have the same: no special provisions for some casteless "dust" to waft up into society's upper echelons. Why is it that the King can sleep with an untouchable and suddenly (because it was a boy) they're not untouchable anymore? Was Rica a non-person before or not? The dissonance created is glaring, enough to make the unwarrantedness of the caste system an unavoidable subject- yet it's not questioned. Does the caste system's cruel rhetoric mean anything it says at all? How can a hybrid equity/disparity social structure have come about? At some point it has to account for its inconsistency.

 

I suppose we could look at Orzammar as a society in transition despite its purported extolling of the virtues of tradition. The caste system has already proven itself an achilles heel for dwarven unity against their foes- the source of immeasurable needless loss for dwarven society and impacting directly on dwarven survival. With such odds against dwarven existence, why fuss with caste distinctions that reduce the number of recognized dwarves? Everyone knows it should be broken entirely, but the "highest" castes aren't exactly going to just abolish their "lofty" social position, and not even the Servant Caste wants to abandon the security of being not-casteless. Yet somewhere in the mix of dwarven history the ambilineal system slipped through to become universal to all castes (even the "not-caste") to enable circumnavigation of caste rigidity. Perhaps the permission of the 50-50 rule was a sort of backdoor attempt at some point to break the caste system- or a reform that appeased people's otherwise more palpable concerns about its threat. "But halfsies you get to keep your kid's caste! Not all bad, right?" "Aw, OK. Then I'm sticking with the fact that casteless are a bunch of nug droppings, am I right?! Oh, I didn't mean to imply anything about your daughter, King Bhelen..." "Or my son..." Only in that way does the 50-50 exception seem less "odd."

Man, this kind of discussion has to get started when I'm working 70+ hours, lol (my work load fluctuates wildly.) If some of my responses are brusque, it's because I'm typing them out wildly when I have a few minutes.

 

A patrilineal or matrilineal only descent does essentially erase the other gender from the line. In fact, a true unilineal lineage traces back through a single line of all men or all women to a single ancestor (a paragon for instance.) Very few are that absolute. Western European systems are not pure patrilineal systems - for instance, all children of either parents' siblings are first cousins. In some bilineal systems, you can claim descent through both parents, but the higher prestige one is usually the important one (but you can claim connections through both lineages.) In a matrilineal descent ( which is not the same as a matriarchy, though I was sloppy in my language earlier) your father is relatively unimportant to you - your maternal uncles are your important male relatives. You inherit from your uncles, not your father, and you have a much weaker (though present) claim on help from his family rather than your own. His sisters' children are his heirs. 

 

Anyway, I think it's fairly clear that while cross-caste marriages aren't barred or punished, they aren't encouraged. But any system, in order to be stable, must have some social mobility (the reason it's there, and the carrot to encourage lower caste women to take that chance,) but they don't want it to be easy (or everyone would simply marry up and eventually there would be nothing except noble caste.) So marriage or just any child isn't enough. I suspect there's a certain attitude that if the ancestors want you raised in caste, you'll have/father a child of the right gender. If not, the ancestors disapprove. To me, it's pretty clear that the caste system and bi-lineage system are meant to work hand in hand. The bi-lineal system preserves all of their important ancestors lines (remember how important the Ancestors are to them, and there have been any number of female paragons and noble founders.) The caste system probably worked relatively well before the first blight. The cruelty of being casteless and all your descendants being casteless is a form of social control (fear of losing caste keeps the lower castes in line - in fact in one of my Brosca stories, she mentions that servant caste was cruelest because they're most aware of how fine a line divides them from being casteless.) The fact that one of the few escapes is into the Legion of the Dead to fight the darkspawn is probably an important reason that it still exists, too.

 

As far as last names go, I suspect children take the last name of the higher caste parent, but probably retain the correct lineage name as a middle name that's transmitted to the children of the right gender. So if I'm descended from a female Helmi paragon but my family name is Aeducan, I'd be Jane Helmi Aeducan and my daughters would also be Helmi Aeducan (assuming I'm higher rank.) If my husband traces his descent back to Gherlen but he's an Ivo, he would be John Gherlen Ivo. Our sons would get the Gherlen for a middle name to retain their descent, but if I'm higher ranked (probably as an Aeducan), then our children would probably be Aeducans. I don't know that's what happens, but lineages usually only preserve one ancestors name perpetually.

[Bhryaen]

Man, this kind of discussion has to get started when I'm working 70+ hours, lol (my work load fluctuates wildly.) If some of my responses are brusque, it's because I'm typing them out wildly when I have a few minutes.

Yikes! Hope you're not risking getting in trouble at work. No rush- I was busy finishing Trespasser- first time since Descent I was actually riveted while playing DAI...

 

A patrilineal or matrilineal only descent does essentially erase the other gender from the line. In fact, a true unilineal lineage traces back through a single line of all men or all women to a single ancestor (a paragon for instance.) Very few are that absolute. Western European systems are not pure patrilineal systems - for instance, all children of either parents' siblings are first cousins. In some bilineal systems, you can claim descent through both parents, but the higher prestige one is usually the important one (but you can claim connections through both lineages.) In a matrilineal descent ( which is not the same as a matriarchy, though I was sloppy in my language earlier) your father is relatively unimportant to you - your maternal uncles are your important male relatives. You inherit from your uncles, not your father, and you have a much weaker (though present) claim on help from his family rather than your own. His sisters' children are his heirs. 

 

Anyway, I think it's fairly clear that while cross-caste marriages aren't barred or punished, they aren't encouraged. But any system, in order to be stable, must have some social mobility (the reason it's there, and the carrot to encourage lower caste women to take that chance,) but they don't want it to be easy (or everyone would simply marry up and eventually there would be nothing except noble caste.) So marriage or just any child isn't enough. I suspect there's a certain attitude that if the ancestors want you raised in caste, you'll have/father a child of the right gender. If not, the ancestors disapprove. To me, it's pretty clear that the caste system and bi-lineage system are meant to work hand in hand. The bi-lineal system preserves all of their important ancestors lines (remember how important the Ancestors are to them, and there have been any number of female paragons and noble founders.) The caste system probably worked relatively well before the first blight. The cruelty of being casteless and all your descendants being casteless is a form of social control (fear of losing caste keeps the lower castes in line - in fact in one of my Brosca stories, she mentions that servant caste was cruelest because they're most aware of how fine a line divides them from being casteless.) The fact that one of the few escapes is into the Legion of the Dead to fight the darkspawn is probably an important reason that it still exists, too.

 

As far as last names go, I suspect children take the last name of the higher caste parent, but probably retain the correct lineage name as a middle name that's transmitted to the children of the right gender. So if I'm descended from a female Helmi paragon but my family name is Aeducan, I'd be Jane Helmi Aeducan and my daughters would also be Helmi Aeducan (assuming I'm higher rank.) If my husband traces his descent back to Gherlen but he's an Ivo, he would be John Gherlen Ivo. Our sons would get the Gherlen for a middle name to retain their descent, but if I'm higher ranked (probably as an Aeducan), then our children would probably be Aeducans. I don't know that's what happens, but lineages usually only preserve one ancestors name perpetually.

We may just have to respectfully agree to disagree, alas- and I do mean respectfully since it's always fun discussing something with someone who knows their stuff. Did you take anthropology as a minor?

 

I don't see social stability as necessarily requiring social mobility. Unjust social systems can unfortunately go on for eons. I do see a measure of social mobility like the universal application of the lineage laws (even to non-people) as a legitimate attempt during social instability (or the threat thereof) to stave off rising discontent temporarily. In that way only can I see snobs of every caste conceding to social "lessers" being allowed to freely enter their ranks. There will always be Denek Helmi's in a society who resent things as they are and voice it despite fierce opposition, but, particularly in a society as rigidly traditional and conservative as Orzammar, the overwhelming bulk tend to outright resist such encroachment on their special status, now bumping elbows with those they'd formerly built a life upon considering beneath them. Even a Servant Caste member would be likely to act just like the one we meet in the Orzammar commons area as a DC (during the origin sequence) who snoots about being all-important in her caste, laying out her rationalization for why things should be as they are, despite how cruel.

 

This isn't to say that the lineage laws of Orzammar aren't working just fine alongside caste disparities- for now. It's clearly to the advantage of "lower" castes- more risky for the "upper" castes. It's just that they're not in and of themselves mutually inclusive. What it tends to instill in society is that sense of entitlement among the dispossessed that TobyTobsen mentioned:

 

Male noble hunters would be rather dangerous for dwarven society and are probably discouraged or non-existent, I think.

 

Not sure how the whole "A key that can open many locks is called a master key, but a lock that can be opened by many keys is a shitty lock." bias is handled by the dwarves, but additionally the only thing you could get from such a union would be noble woman, while you would foster a steady rise of a disgruntled male duster population.

 

Pretty dangerous for a caste system that treats the lowest class as less than dirt.

 

I'd say that same principle applies with female noble hunters: it means that the casteless are being treated like dirt but yet are being recognized as full people under certain circumstances. "So I'm a person by law but you still treat me this way?!" They're no longer just criminals and beggars but potential nobles-in-wait. Because of the open tolerance of noble hunters- i.e., of universal application of the lineage laws- the casteless actually do have a voice- one that can even come from the halls of the Royal Palace with Bhelen (and from any number of noble houses regardless of Bhelen)- but yet are still slapped down for some technicality of a caste system that's already being circumvented half the time. This far more leads to the casteless feeling like they're in their rights to vocalize and act on their demands and in their interests than if they were universally shunned by the castes and had no hope of landing a bed in a mansion. It's one of the "risks" (or benefits) of a democracy: people with a voice tend to want to be heard. This is why the movie "Slumdog Millionaire" was a lot more impactful in caste-ridden India than the West: it's a sign of caste rigidity crumbling, being depicted as arbitrary (as it is) and questionable. If you look back to the feudal "middle ages," "bastards" born to some noble and a prostitute were never treated as if they had a legitimate claim to inheritance, even killed for trying to suggest it, (Alistair's claim to the human throne notwithstanding). That sounds more like how an Orzammar noble might otherwise be anticipated to treat children with a casteless.

 

From my impression of the dwarf origins it seemed like the "Noble Hunter," erm... profession(?)... was a fairly recent development as the game starts. All meta-gamed tutorialism aside, Gorim actually had to explain to the DN what it was. Rica describes it to the DC like it's a new way to get out of Dust Town. So it's not as if social mobility for the casteless had necessarily been around since the inception of caste delineation and rigidity. Castelessness can serve just as well to menace the castes into compliance and fealty without any social mobility provided for the casteless whatsoever. The stick for caste members requires no carrot for the casteless- or even for "lower" castes- at least so long as there's enough population within each caste to sustain sufficient intra-caste diversity (which Orzammar may have lost). The carrot gets introduced only when it has to be- and only as far as it has to be. That they extended provisional personhood to the casteless wasn't something that had to have been there all along, and appears more a sign of a social system in transition, much as the US in the 50s probably never seemed like it would abolish Jim Crow despite that all around there were people circumventing it, pushing its limits, disregarding it. (A better example might be that in the 1960s no one in the US would have predicted a Black President of the US in 2008, even though the abolition of slavery and Jim Crow made it perfectly possible). After all, baby Endrin Aeducan- but for fortune a casteless non-person- now could be King of Orzammar.

 

Mind you, I'm not advocating banning social mobility for the casteless. I'm advocating abolishing the caste system. I just see the current state of diametrically-opposed mixed messages in Orzammar politics as a condition that isn't stability-enabling. Once such a state of disparity is established, there is a counter that starts ticking to when one subsumes the other.

 

Another thought comes to mind: why do we not see "noble hunters" from the Servant Caste? They also have something to gain from legal acceptance into a noble (or simply "higher") house, no? It gets less likely the further up the totem pole, but it doesn't seem prohibitively unlikely.

[Bhryaen]

So, btw "You're Welcome," everyone, for having managed to get a hold of the OP to change the title of the threa-... Oh... Nvm... Well, if you look on Pg2 she says elves are her favorite race, dwarves 2nd, so I suppose a renewed interest in dwarves wasn't exactly likely... ... Ah, well, Dwarf Support Thread it is!

[Gilsa]

It's great you were able to get a hold of her, thanks for that. I knew a title change wasn't likely because she returned here with a new handle. My original message to her about the thread is still unread so she probably doesn't have access to the original account or the ability to edit her post.

[vertigomez]

I don't know how it works on these forums or if the mods even go for it here, but I was a member of another forum where a blank post by one member could be inserted into the OP, making the new member the "original" poster, and then they could edit the post and title as they pleased. That's how they changed fanclub ownership over there.

Mods here don't seem, err... terribly present, though, so I don't even know if that's a thing.

[Bhryaen]

What's a good head-canon for a Cadash? It was easier for a Lavellan- she's an elf, she had a clan, she left the clan, done. With so little to go on for a Cadash though it's hard to conceive of Blunchard's pre-story... would appreciate ideas.. but here's my attempt:

 

Spoiler

(Didn't have enough mats to give him Sha-Brytol armor right away- phooey!)

 

Boffra always felt her spine stiffening when Blunchard would arrive and make eye contact without his usual head nod. It felt like his way of putting her signature on the job she'd assigned him, but, just like the last mission she'd sent him on, no signature was forthcoming. "No?"

 

The corner of Blunchard's mouth twitched into a humorless smirk. "You were right. Mages are nugbrains."

 

It wasn't the first time a recent lyrium shipment had been forestalled, hijacked, or otherwise made unprofitable. And unfortunately she couldn't blame Blunchard for incompetence, not after having seen him in action as often as she had. If any of her crew was reliable, he was. The conflict between the mages and templars was making honest- or dishonest- trade unbearable.

 

"So you weren't able to convince them? That's why I send you. You're the one with the strongest persuasion skills around here."

 

Blunchard knew this was mostly a reference to his maul, but he always appreciated recognition for his previous jobs well-done. In this case, that he got any recognition at all was contenting. "There wasn't any persuading to do. The mages took it and ran... to wherever. And we're not getting it back without more than the handful of Boulders I had with me. If it's any consolation, the Temps didn't demand their sovs back... after I... talked with them. But they want a new shipment."

 

"It's not on the carta to polish their marble for them. If they want their product they have to meet us halfway."

 

"Which is what I told them..." Blunchard knew he was going to have "that discussion" with Boffra again, so he just made his position known. "But you know it doesn't look good when we can't maintain our own routes."

 

Boffra wasn't one to accept defeat casually. "We're supposed to send them double the supplies then? That's what you promised them? How do we even know they didn't just kill Carta agents outright and lie about it?"

 

Blunchard leveled his gaze at her with his head cocked. "They'd really risk that with the Cadash House?" He had only become a Cadash from marriage to Boffra's younger sister, Drevli, when he'd left Dust Town so long ago, but that also worked in his favor: his earnestness in representing the Cadashes always appealed to Boffra, if not to her general house patriotism outright. And Drevli's loss was also cause for Cadash patriotism.

 

She had no reply, so he continued, "Besides, I saw the drop point. Temps don't leave blast marks like those. Unless scortched earth and frozen grass are Temp work."

 

Then Boffra erupted, pacing somewhat around the room as if staking territory, "We lost good Cadashes that day! If the Temps think they can simply ignore our losses and demand a new shipment they're as cloud-addled as the mages! We're not just calling it a slip-up and sending them whatever they please. They want the lyrium- they can go get it! We delivered."

 

That was when Blunchard knew he'd overplayed the Cadash-card. Not that he didn't agree with her for the most part, but long-term customers were becoming harder to establish in these trying times, so he saw no good in just stone-knuckling every situation. He tried to back-pedal: "I didn't promise them anything."

 

"Good! Wouldn't have sent you if I thought you would."

 

Blunchard sighed long, unable to put into useful words what needed to be said. Boffra balked at him, "Do you actually think we're supposed to keep sending lyrium to them? Where's their concern for our people? They couldn't care less! Stupid addicts. We can always find more..."

 

"Actually," Blunchard began, more hopeful now that she was the one to bring it up. He slowly pulled a gold Templar icon from his coat pocket and reached out to hand it to her. "They helped us recover all the Boulders' goods and exchanged this personal item for one of ours. If anything, it'll go for a few sovs. They want to keep our business."

 

"Wait a minute. You gave them something from one of our fallen Cadashes?"

 

Blunchard paused awkwardly as his eyes went dead, anticipating the backlash. "Yes."

 

"Yes?! You just gave it away for this pathetic Temp trophy?" She swatted the icon from his hand to send it flying, and he slowly returned his hand to his side. "How could you have possibly done that??"

 

"It was Krevor's beat-up old locket, boss. He has no one back here to give it to anyway."
 

"Krevor..." Boffra was struggling to find a way to make the loss of the locket more significant. Blunchard was hoping she wouldn't find such a way. "What about cousin Narkra? She doesn't want it?"

 

"Narkra pissed in his ale just last week, ser. They weren't on good terms."

 

"Yeah..." Boffra had indeed overplayed her outrage.

 

"And that icon," Blunchard indicated with a head shift across the room toward the Templar icon without taking his eyes from her, "was from their chief officer who died there as well." He just let the facts sink in.

 

Boffra wasn't letting this go. She stared him hard in his stone-dead eyes. "Would you have handed Drevli's locket over to a bunch of sky-addled idiots too?"

 

That was a low blow, even as common as low blows usually were around there. Drevli had been killed a few years prior in a raid on a rival carta's warehouse. The raid was successful, but there had been more casualties than anticipated. It had been deemed necessary by numerous Cadash leaders, including Boffra, because that carta was flouting the Cadash name, brazenly out-bidding clients, and daring a response. Given Boffra's role in the death of her own sister, it made the accusation against Blunchard that much less fair, but his only reply was a fairly muted, "No."

 

"Exactly!"

 

Blunchard waited a moment for her to bask in her righteousness before venturing, "I'd never have given those sodders anything but the broad side of my hammer."

 

"Yeah..." Boffra muttered, still pacing, clearly of a somewhat mixed reaction. They both knew Boffra had never been particularly close with Drevli as it was. "Idiot addicts. If only we didn't need them..."

 

Blunchard wasn't sure how to resolve the matter. The Cadash Carta did need to do something about the lost shipment. He offered, "Maybe that Concrete meeting will make the mages less nugbrained in the future." The term "nugbrain" was Boffra's favorite, so he figured that might make her less hostile... at least to him.

 

"The what? Oh, the 'Conclave' thing," she pronounced mockingly. "Yeah... Wait, no, now that you remind me of it, we're not going to just wait on them to get their nugbrains straightened out. Someone has to go make sure they get sense in their airy heads..." She turned to face him with her eyes narrowed in an expression intended to let him know he was the one who inspired it, "I'm sending you."

 

Blunchard blinked. "Me?" He'd been sent to negotiate all sorts of arrangements for the Cadash Carta, but always something relatively local... and carta-controlled. Such a task seemed loomingly outside his skillset. "How will I-?"

 

"I don't know," Boffra responded dismissively. "Figure something out. But you're going! You figured out how to make nice by giving away Cadash souvenirs to a bunch of Temps, didn't you? Go make the Temps and magical idiots exchange gifts too and call it a draw. I'm sick of this bronto-ass war mucking things up."

 

She was clearly riding him because she figured she was on the high stone, but Blunchard knew she wouldn't be sending him if she lacked confidence in him, so the digs at him didn't feel quite as much like a scolding. "I'll... do what I can."

 

"Of course, you will... Besides, at the very least you can report back immediately however the stone turns..." As Blunchard watched, hoping she was taking time to reconsider her order, Boffra had sauntered over to where the Templar icon had landed on the edge of her desk. She picked it up with as much of a disinterested appraisal as she could feign. "I can probably get 5 sovs for it... maybe 6."

 

Blunchard knew there was no more he could do about it. "I'll do the Cadash family proud, ser."

 

He hesitated a moment- more a rehearsed gesture to leave his boss a chance to get a line in- then turned to leave, barely able to determine a single way he'd be able to live up to his word. As he started to try to piece together how he'd ever even get anyone at the Conclave to talk with him, much persuade them to give up hostilities, Boffra added, passing over his sentiment as if he'd merely intoned an understood edict, "And get an audience with whoever's in charge over there too. Make sure they... understand what we need."

 

Blunchard couldn't help but wonder if she was putting him- and the carta itself- in gravel over their heads, but he was never one to question orders much further than simply how to get them done. He was a heavy- all there was to it, and he had skills. There was only one way he wasn't- with his daughter: "And Broska?"

 

Boffra looked at him with mild surprise, though it was true that she did look kindly on the responsibility he demonstrated for her niece. "What about her? Of course, she'll be taken care of- as always. Why? Worried the nugbrains are going to get you?"

 

Blunchard had been sussed out: yes, he was worried. But all he could meaningfully reply was, "Nah. I'll handle it." And he started toward the door with his usual well-walked composure of determined swagger before setting out on a mission she'd given him, albeit feeling definitively out of his element this time.

 

"Yes... you will." Boffra sounded somewhere between insistent and encouraging. Both knew the long-term consequences of the war on business and life for the Cadash House generally.

 

Blunchard let her have the last word. Boffra always got the last word.

 

There! Now I have a story to draw from... Hopefully the War Room missions or game outcomes won't contradict anything. So much more iffy when there's no actual origins experience to extrapolate from...

[Tishina]

Yikes! Hope you're not risking getting in trouble at work. No rush- I was busy finishing Trespasser- first time since Descent I was actually riveted while playing DAI...

 

We may just have to respectfully agree to disagree, alas- and I do mean respectfully since it's always fun discussing something with someone who knows their stuff. Did you take anthropology as a minor?

 

I don't see social stability as necessarily requiring social mobility. Unjust social systems can unfortunately go on for eons. I do see a measure of social mobility like the universal application of the lineage laws (even to non-people) as a legitimate attempt during social instability (or the threat thereof) to stave off rising discontent temporarily. In that way only can I see snobs of every caste conceding to social "lessers" being allowed to freely enter their ranks. There will always be Denek Helmi's in a society who resent things as they are and voice it despite fierce opposition, but, particularly in a society as rigidly traditional and conservative as Orzammar, the overwhelming bulk tend to outright resist such encroachment on their special status, now bumping elbows with those they'd formerly built a life upon considering beneath them. Even a Servant Caste member would be likely to act just like the one we meet in the Orzammar commons area as a DC (during the origin sequence) who snoots about being all-important in her caste, laying out her rationalization for why things should be as they are, despite how cruel.

 

This isn't to say that the lineage laws of Orzammar aren't working just fine alongside caste disparities- for now. It's clearly to the advantage of "lower" castes- more risky for the "upper" castes. It's just that they're not in and of themselves mutually inclusive. What it tends to instill in society is that sense of entitlement among the dispossessed that TobyTobsen mentioned:

*snip*

Hmm, I suppose it shows, lol. Let's just say I have a particular interest in questions of identity and culture and how they work together. Nope, I'm not on a clock, just have to meet deadlines. Don't get paid all that great, but I have a lot of flexibility on how I get things done.

 

I think in some areas we have to disagree, but definitely respectfully. I love this sort of discussion when it's polite. I firmly agree, btw, that the caste system is strangling Orzammar and needs to be jettisoned, but people at the top are rarely willing to give up control voluntarily, and the casteless stigma helps them keep control; people aren't willing to risk losing caste by rebelling openly. Remember, even during the Blight, the nobles of Orzammar were more interested in scrambling for position and keeping their control than in responding to the situation. Now, why the casteless themselves haven't openly rebelled is another question entirely (though perhaps they have in the past...?) You do see in Varric and some of the other younger surface caste dwarves signs of rejecting that system, though.

 

The lineage system serves more purposes than just determining caste, though, and I think it's something worth retaining for the dwarves.