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[Merela]

For the first time, I'm glad the Exalted Marches DLC for DA2 was cancelled, because Gaider apparently mentioned at a panel recently they had been considering killing Varric at the end of it... and yeah, that would not have gone over well with anyone.

 

Erf, I'm a bit torn up on this. On the first hand, I love Vava and I'm glad he's alive...but on the other hand, the first sketches of the Inquisition compagnons showed no Varric and Blackwall was apparently a dwarf. Let's assume for a moment that they began to throw ideas for DA:I while still working on DA:2 DLCs and the expansion..."Blackwall" could have been a romanceable dwarf. And they once mentionned they had considered making Varric romanceable in the expansion. We could have had two romanceable dwarves by now. And in the end we got none.

[BigBad]

I dunno. I find it much more likely that if Blackwall had been a dwarf, he'd have not been a romance option.  While I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory that the devs hate dwarf romances, I do think that the relatively low popularity of dwarves as a race makes them a bit of a riskier choice. Romances are usually designed to appeal to as broad a demographic as possible, so that the necessarily few options will nonetheless satisfy as many players as they can.  We can trumpet all we like about the dwarven master race (and we certainly do), but the numbers the devs have still classify us as a vocal minority, and those are always a gamble to indulge.

[Ghost Gal]

Erf, I'm a bit torn up on this. On the first hand, I love Vava and I'm glad he's alive...but on the other hand, the first sketches of the Inquisition compagnons showed no Varric and Blackwall was apparently a dwarf. Let's assume for a moment that they began to throw ideas for DA:I while still working on DA:2 DLCs and the expansion..."Blackwall" could have been a romanceable dwarf. And they once mentionned they had considered making Varric romanceable in the expansion. We could have had two romanceable dwarves by now. And in the end we got none.

 

Really? I've been looking at Blackwall's concept art, and he seemed pretty human from the first. Looking up Sera's, Solas', Dorian's, and Vivienne's concept art, you see earlier designs for them real quick (Sera tan and long-haired, Solas tan and deadlocked, Dorian and Vivienne both pale), but, sadly, I'm not seeing that with Blackwall. He seemed to just be a hairy, bearded human from the first. (Maybe it's in a place I missed?)

 

It's a shame he's not a dwarf, though, not just because we lost out on another potential dwarf companion and romance, but because it would have been a great chance to play fast and loose with dwarf stereotypes. Thanks to Tolkien and, especially, Jackson's take on Gimli, most fantasy dwarves have been hard-drinking, hot-headed clowns. DAO degrades them further by having Orzammar dwarves THINK they're honorable but are mostly backstabbing hypocrites, with many nobles who like the appearance of honor but not the morals that go with it, and casteless and surface dwarves who have to resort to crime just to survive. And, of course, BioWare's idea of subverting dwarf stereotypes has usually been to just make them wise-cracking rogues--Dorna Trapspringer from NWN, Sigrun from DAA, Varric from DA2, Harding from DAI... Which itself has become an expected stereotype.

 

If would have been cool had Blackwall started off embodying the "Knight in Shining Armor" shtick typically reserved only for human warrior companions, like Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, Cullen, etc, but just happened to be a dwarf. Furthermore, we'd get a genuinely noble, honorable dwarf warrior--not a drunken clown like Oghren, nor an out-and-out snarky rogue like Sigrun and Varric and Harding. That by itself would be interesting.

 

Then the reveal of Blackwall's criminal past could highlight the running theme of Thedas dwarves struggling between honor and greed. Blackwalls' criminal past already fits well with Warden Brosca's and Inquisitor Cadash's (and Sigrun's) "former criminal turning over a new leaf" story. His background could also fit with dwarf society or culture--he could have been a warrior or noble who played at dwarven politics but lost, got exiled or had to flee Orzammar, then got picked up by the real Blackwall the way Warden Aeducan did with Duncan. Or his background as a mercenary / war criminal could have been similar to that of Dwyn, only he went too far in the name of gold. Now he struggles with the appearance of honor and actually being honorable. Blackwall's in-game struggle between appearing noble and honorable and being noble and honorable for real can highlight the struggles of dwarves in dwarf culture to do the same--and give it really interesting depth.

 

If what you say is true, though, it kind of sucks that BioWare decided to race-lift one planned dwarf companion just because another one got pushed forward. I get it--they were going to make a DA2 expansion that heavily featured Varric, but it got cut so the ideas had to get transferred to DAI and Varric with them. If Blackwall had been considered to be a dwarf before, just because Varric got transferred to this game doesn't mean they had to cut their other dwarf companion and make him just another human. What do they have against having decent dwarven presence in their games?

 

Hey, long-time lurker, first-time poster.

[Merela]

I dunno. I find it much more likely that if Blackwall had been a dwarf, he'd have not been a romance option.  While I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory that the devs hate dwarf romances, I do think that the relatively low popularity of dwarves as a race makes them a bit of a riskier choice. Romances are usually designed to appeal to as broad a demographic as possible, so that the necessarily few options will nonetheless satisfy as many players as they can.  We can trumpet all we like about the dwarven master race (and we certainly do), but the numbers the devs have still classify us as a vocal minority, and those are always a gamble to indulge.

 

But if not Blackwall, who then? Who would have be a male romance for the ladies other than Bull (since the romances were going to be 2/2/2)?Solas (whose romance was added only because the game was postponed in the first place)? Cole? Also many players, and not only dwarves fans, were disappointed that Varric and Sigrun weren't romanceable. We might be a minority when it comes to be willing to play as one, but for romancing a dwarf? I believe the numbers would prove you wrong.

 

Really? I've been looking at Blackwall's concept art, and he seemed pretty human from the first. Looking up Sera's, Solas', Dorian's, and Vivienne's concept art, you see earlier designs for them real quick (Sera tan and long-haired, Solas tan and deadlocked, Dorian and Vivienne both pale), but, sadly, I'm not seeing that with Blackwall. He seemed to just be a hairy, bearded human from the first. (Maybe it's in a place I missed?)

 

It's a shame he's not a dwarf, though, not just because we lost out on another potential dwarf companion and romance, but because it would have been a great chance to play fast and loose with dwarf stereotypes. Thanks to Tolkien and, especially, Jackson's take on Gimli, most fantasy dwarves have been hard-drinking, hot-headed clowns. DAO degrades them further by having Orzammar dwarves THINK they're honorable but are mostly backstabbing hypocrites, with many nobles who like the appearance of honor but not the morals that go with it, and casteless and surface dwarves who have to resort to crime just to survive. And, of course, BioWare's idea of subverting dwarf stereotypes has usually been to just make them wise-cracking rogues--Dorna Trapspringer from NWN, Sigrun from DAA, Varric from DA2, Harding from DAI... Which itself has become an expected stereotype.

 

If would have been cool had Blackwall started off embodying the "Knight in Shining Armor" shtick typically reserved only for human warrior companions, like Alistair, Aveline, Cassandra, Cullen, etc, but just happened to be a dwarf. Furthermore, we'd get a genuinely noble, honorable dwarf warrior--not a drunken clown like Oghren, nor an out-and-out snarky rogue like Sigrun and Varric and Harding. That by itself would be interesting.

 

Then the reveal of Blackwall's criminal past could highlight the running theme of Thedas dwarves struggling between honor and greed. Blackwalls' criminal past already fits well with Warden Brosca's and Inquisitor Cadash's (and Sigrun's) "former criminal turning over a new leaf" story. His background could also fit with dwarf society or culture--he could have been a warrior or noble who played at dwarven politics but lost, got exiled or had to flee Orzammar, then got picked up by the real Blackwall the way Warden Aeducan did with Duncan. Or his background as a mercenary / war criminal could have been similar to that of Dwyn, only he went too far in the name of gold. Now he struggles with the appearance of honor and actually being honorable. Blackwall's in-game struggle between appearing noble and honorable and being noble and honorable for real can highlight the struggles of dwarves in dwarf culture to do the same--and give it really interesting depth.

 

If what you say is true, though, it kind of sucks that BioWare decided to race-lift one planned dwarf companion just because another one got pushed forward. I get it--they were going to make a DA2 expansion that heavily featured Varric, but it got cut so the ideas had to get transferred to DAI and Varric with them. If Blackwall had been considered to be a dwarf before, just because Varric got transferred to this game doesn't mean they had to cut their other dwarf companion and make him just another human. What do they have against having decent dwarven presence in their games?

 

Hey, long-time lurker, first-time poster.

 

Pages 44-45 of The Art of Dragon Age; there are sketches of the companions (and it makes me think that Leli was apparently supposed to be one of them, and they made her an advisor instead when Vava joined the cast since he already was a rogue?). Blackwall is clearly a dwarf (already wearing the GW uniform). EDIT: Here's some pictures!

 

 

 

And I disagree about DA:O degrading the dwarves "further". It saddens me that they gave us a totally stereotypical dwarf as a companion (even though I really like Oghren), but I appreciate that, as far as the dwarven society goes, they attempted to subvert the "Our dwarves are all the same" tropes in some ways. The nobles in Orzammar are basically playing their own, even deadlier version of the Game (I used to nickname them "Beardy drows" ) and the dwarf society as a whole is obessed with status and rank. No more "they're all blacksmiths 'cause they're dwarves!". Even plenty of surfacer dwarves are still obsessed with status and rank (or are obessed with not being obsessed with status and ranks).

 

But I guess it's all a matter of taste at the end. And I definitely agree with the rest of your post.

 

Also welcome!

[Tishina]

But if not Blackwall, who then? Who would have be a male romance for the ladies other than Bull (since the romances were going to be 2/2/2)?Solas (whose romance was added only because the game was postponed in the first place)? Cole? Also many players, and not only dwarves fans, were disappointed that Varric and Sigrun weren't romanceable. We might be a minority when it comes to be willing to play as one, but for romancing a dwarf? I believe the numbers would prove you wrong.

 

 

Pages 44-45 of The Art of Dragon Age; there are sketches of the companions (and it makes me think that Leli was apparently supposed to be one of them, and they made her an advisor instead when Vava joined the cast since he already was a rogue?). Blackwall is clearly a dwarf (already wearing the GW uniform). EDIT: Here's some pictures!

 

 

 

And I disagree about DA:O degrading the dwarves "further". It saddens me that they gave us a totally stereotypical dwarf as a companion (even though I really like Oghren), but I appreciate that, as far as the dwarven society goes, they attempted to subvert the "Our dwarves are all the same" tropes in some ways. The nobles in Orzammar are basically playing their own, even deadlier version of the Game (I used to nickname them "Beardy drows" ) and the dwarf society as a whole is obessed with status and rank. No more "they're all blacksmiths 'cause they're dwarves!". Even plenty of surfacer dwarves are still obsessed with status and rank (or are obessed with not being obsessed with status and ranks).

 

But I guess it's all a matter of taste at the end. And I definitely agree with the rest of your post.

 

Also welcome!

Well, dang. I hadn't known they'd changed him. OTOH, I'm not that enthusiastic about yet another dwarf who is, essentially, a criminal. I'd prefer one myself who started out with everyone assuming he or she was seedy, then turn out to be the noble (in personality) character, even if a bit rough around the edges. I feel like they've done the criminal dwarf trope to death (both DAO origins, Sigrun, Varric, Cadash...) just as much as I want something besides noble birth finally for a human.

 

Though Blackwall as a dwarf would have had to have had a very different one from Blackwall - the Orlesian army doesn't have dwarves and the Chevaliers don't accept non-humans and non-nobles. Which suggests that since someone wanted to sponsor Ranier to the Chevaliers, Ranier must have had a noble background, even if it was extremely marginal...

[Ghost Gal]

Pages 44-45 of The Art of Dragon Age; there are sketches of the companions (and it makes me think that Leli was apparently supposed to be one of them, and they made her an advisor instead when Vava joined the cast since he already was a rogue?). Blackwall is clearly a dwarf (already wearing the GW uniform). EDIT: Here's some pictures!

 

[snip for space]

 

Oh, I see. Thank you for elaborating! I retract my doubt.

 

And I disagree about DA:O degrading the dwarves "further". It saddens me that they gave us a totally stereotypical dwarf as a companion (even though I really like Oghren), but I appreciate that, as far as the dwarven society goes, they attempted to subvert the "Our dwarves are all the same" tropes in some ways. The nobles in Orzammar are basically playing their own, even deadlier version of the Game (I used to nickname them "Beardy drows"  ) and the dwarf society as a whole is obessed with status and rank. No more "they're all blacksmiths 'cause they're dwarves!". Even plenty of surfacer dwarves are still obsessed with status and rank (or are obessed with not being obsessed with status and ranks).

 

But I guess it's all a matter of taste at the end. And I definitely agree with the rest of your post. 

 

I guess what I meant was Tolkien-esque dwarves' "shtick" (especially from Tolkien knock-offs) is that the dwarves brag that they're honorable and awesome, but most other races snicker behind their backs because they find them short, goofy, loud and obnoxious drunks, sufferers of short man's syndrome, etc. This portrayal has especially become more common after Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy, where he played up Gimli's goofiness. While Tolkien himself spoke very fondly and deferentially of his dwarven race, that's not how they're generally remembered; if the "Our Dwarves are all the Same" trope is any indication. I personally feel like it degrades an otherwise really awesome, badass, respectable race. (Especially since the masses like to make short jokes, and hair-trigger short men inspire "short man's syndrome" jokes.)

 

I personally feel like DAO "degraded" the honorability of dwarves further by keeping the "the dwarves THINK they're the most noble, honorable, awesome race to ever live, while most other races snicker at them" angle, only they stripped the likability further by making DAO dwarven noble and warrior culture pompous, amoral, backstabbing hypocrites who preach honor but practice assassination; without the comic relief that makes the likes of Gimli and Oghren so charming. I personally think that while this is a somewhat refreshing take on dwarf society (more on that below), it's too bad we have not yet had a single unambiguously good, noble, honorable, dwarf warrior (apart from Gorim, who leaves quickly) in the party (like Oghren, Sigrun, and Varric) or employment (like Bodahn, Sandal, and Harding), to balance out the piles and piles of dishonorable nobles, pompous warriors, and awesome though morally loose casteless and surface dwarves we come across.

 

I agree, though, that I like how they play with dwarf stereotypes, even if they tend to use them to deconstruct. Again, I personally think they're a little too reliant on the "snarky female and/or clean-shaven dwarf rogue" archetypes (Dorna, Sigrun, Varric, Harding) to avoid the Gimli stereotype, which if used too often over time leads to a new stereotype. Still, some avoidance is better than none.

 

I also like how they gave logical reasons for standard dwarf stereotypes. You most often find dwarf warriors and smiths not because they're genetically inclined to it, but because of where they live. They're a warrior culture because they're constantly at war with darkspawn, and there are lots of smiths because they need to arm guards fighting the forever war with darkspawn. Also, there are limited career options when you live underground anyway, and when they go to the surface they tend to take the skills they had in Orzammar; hence why surface dwarves are mostly smiths and merchants. As Varric points out, you won't exactly find dwarven sailors or fisherman in Orzammar. I also like how they went back to the dwarves' roots with the cutthroat dwarf noble society. It's funny how you call them "beardy-drow," because in Scandinavian folklore, "dark elves" (what inspired the modern drow) were actually indistinguishable from dwarves (at least in the surviving documents). I mean, they're called "elves," but in description and practice they sound like the author used the terms elves and dwarves interchangeably. So making DAO dwarf society cutthroat like drow... a nice little *wink* to the lore before Tolkien. 

 

Sorry, I know them's fighting words coming into the Dwarf Support thread to say anything remotely negative about them. I'm just explaining why I like dwarves and how I feel DAO could do them more justice.

 

And again, I think Blackwall would have been so much more interesting as a character if he had been a dwarf, and I think his struggle between appearing as an honorable man and embodying that honorable for real would have whole new dimensions if he were a dwarf, instead of just another human. Just me, though.

[Ghost Gal]

Well, dang. I hadn't known they'd changed him. OTOH, I'm not that enthusiastic about yet another dwarf who is, essentially, a criminal. I'd prefer one myself who started out with everyone assuming he or she was seedy, then turn out to be the noble (in personality) character, even if a bit rough around the edges. I feel like they've done the criminal dwarf trope to death (both DAO origins, Sigrun, Varric, Cadash...) just as much as I want something besides noble birth finally for a human.

 

Yeah, the "criminal dwarf" archetype for the DA series is getting pretty old. Then again, we kind of already got the "everyone starts off assuming he or she was seedy, then turn out to be noble (in personality)" shtick with Varric.

 

I feel like BioWare really clings to their comfort zone when it comes to dwarves. First we got Oghren, a Gimli knock-off. He wasn't very well-received. Then we got Sigrun, a chipper, snarky, likeable (criminal) dwarven rogue. She was really well-received. Guess what we got in DA2? Varric, a chipper, snarky, likable (criminal) dwarven rogue, only also  an ARCHER! Varric was a huge success, so the new dwarf characters they made in DAI, Bianca and Harding? Also snarky rogue archers. (I don't really count Dagna because she was adored in DAO, so they knew they'd have a good bet bringing her back.) I just kinda wish BioWare would branch out to more than one new shtick every new major dwarven character.

 

Though Blackwall as a dwarf would have had to have had a very different one from Blackwall - the Orlesian army doesn't have dwarves and the Chevaliers don't accept non-humans and non-nobles. Which suggests that since someone wanted to sponsor Ranier to the Chevaliers, Ranier must have had a noble background, even if it was extremely marginal...

 

Then again, earlier Dwarf!Blackwall's story might have been different in the earlier drafts just like his appearance was. I wouldn't be surprised if his earlier story would have been a case of playing deadly dwarf politics and losing in earlier drafts, then they just transferred the story over to fit a human setting and skirmish after they made him human.

 

For example, Blackwall's story of being in the Orlesian army but then betraying his sworn lord because his lord's enemy paid him handsomely but then dropped him like a rock once the job was done sounds very much like a typical day in dwarven politics. Dwarf!Blackwall could work very well if he was an Orzammar noble or warrior who stood with one house, then betrayed his noble ally/sponsor by slaughtering him and his family, then the new ally he did it for dropped him or turned on him. It would be a case of playing dwarven politics and losing, and either getting exiled or having to flee Orzammar to avoid getting banished, then getting picked up by the real Blackwall (as Warden Aeducan did with Duncan).

 

On the other hand, if this was in the cards to begin with, Dwarf!Blackwall working for the Orlesian army could also work if he was a mercenary like Dwyn (perhaps because his family was a warrior house before they moved to the surface, so he got the warrior training; perhaps the noble Blackwall tells us about in the game who sponsored him was a noble who gave a dwarven warrior a leg-up in the racist Orlesian society in the earlier drafts), who was hired to help the a noble fight in Orlais, even if he wasn't an official Chivalier part of the Orlesian army. The whole "I betrayed them for GOLD!" line would actually more sense too. He was hired by Orlesian Lord X to fight against Orlesian Lord Y, but then Lord Y paid him handsomely to kill Lord X instead, so he did (extra points if he tricked his men into doing it), but then there were serious repercussions because a) no one likes a mercenary who turns on their employers, and b ) slaughtering not only a noble but his whole family is a BIG No-No. Then he left his men behind to take the fall (mercenaries that they are) while he went into hiding.

 

Personally, I was always kind of confused by people referring to Blackwall as a "mercenary," because I thought, "Wait, wasn't he a sworn Chevalier? Yeah, turning on your employer for gold is sucky, but..." If he was intended to be a dwarf and they conceived of the Orlesian setting to begin with, him being an official mercenary turned war criminal would actually makes sense. (Not just an insult.)

 

I dunno. I always got "dwarfy" vibes from Blackwall, not just from the name and the beard, but from his overall demeanor, his background of playing cutthroat politics and losing, his criminal background, which in-game is stated to directly mirror Cadash's "former criminal turning over a new leaf" shtick, etc. etc. So, to be honest, learning that he might have been originally conceived as a dwarf feels more like, "That explains a lot!" to me.

[vertigomez]

Hnnnnng, sweet nostalgia.

Spoiler

[vertigomez]

Alright I have to come in here and cry about my Brosca and Morrigan 'cause y'all understand my pain.

Pfffffff whenever I think about their respective relationships with their mother (CRAP) or their father (ABSENT) I just melt into a sad puddle of despair, because their childhoods were so unhappy and unfair but you knoooow they're not going to let the same thing happen to Kieran.

Oh god I'm weepy again, I'm just gonna quote myself:

IMAGINE DADDY BROSCA AND KIERAN

• He remembers holding his nephew Endrin in his arms, seeing Rica’s face alight with joy and contentment for the first time in forever, thinking that he would never get to have that. Even if he’s a bona fide Grey Warden now, he’s still more likely to succumb to the Taint or meet the business end of a darkspawn sword in battle. Having a wife, raising a family? Not likely.

• He finds Morrigan, because of course he does, Brosca always keeps his promises and the thought of his child growing up without knowing him actually aches. He cannot remember his father’s face no matter how hard he tries. He doesn’t want to be that man. (He doesn’t think twice about following her through the mirror.)

• Like Morrigan to Flemeth (“I will not be the mother to him that you were to me.”), he vows that Kieran will never, ever, ever have to make sure Brosca hasn’t drowned in his own vomit in the middle of the night; will never have to drag him home, stumbling and reeking of ale, from the local watering hole. He will never threaten or berate or forsake his son.

• When Brosca leaves to search for a cure to the Calling - for his family, so he can remain with them and give them the father and husband they deserve - he weeps. His father left for the surface when he was just a babe; can he abandon his son with no guarantee of his own survival? Of theirs? Flemeth is a dark shadow on the horizon, and though Morrigan is the wisest and most formidable person he’s ever met, they are still profoundly mortal. What if, what if…

AAAAHHHHHH IF YOU CAN’T TELL, I HAVE A LOT OF DWARF FEELINGS (;´Д`)

SOMEONE EXORCISE THESE DEMONS FEELINGS FROM ME

[Spectre4hire]

Alright I have to come in here and cry about my Brosca and Morrigan 'cause y'all understand my pain.

Pfffffff whenever I think about their respective relationships with their mother (CRAP) or their father (ABSENT) I just melt into a sad puddle of despair, because their childhoods were so unhappy and unfair but you knoooow they're not going to let the same thing happen to Kieran.

Oh god I'm weepy again, I'm just gonna quote myself:


SOMEONE EXORCISE THESE DEMONS FEELINGS FROM ME

 

Well said and wonderfully put, vertigomez!

 

This just confirms my loyalties to Aeducan/Leliana and Brosca/Morrigan ships.

 

To me, it's awesome how these two dwarf backgrounds so wonderfully compliment Leliana and Morrgian's respected stories and seem such a natural fit in terms of a relationship. 

[Merela]

Alright I have to come in here and cry about my Brosca and Morrigan 'cause y'all understand my pain.

Pfffffff whenever I think about their respective relationships with their mother (CRAP) or their father (ABSENT) I just melt into a sad puddle of despair, because their childhoods were so unhappy and unfair but you knoooow they're not going to let the same thing happen to Kieran.

Oh god I'm weepy again, I'm just gonna quote myself:


SOMEONE EXORCISE THESE DEMONS FEELINGS FROM ME

 

Eh, I'm more on the Brosca/Leli ride myself, but those were heartwarming yet  heartbroking thoughts!    It's actually reminds me of Morri-Morri asking softly Galar if there could have been something between them after he completed her quest as a friend. She sounded so vulnerable.

[vertigomez]

Well said and wonderfully put, vertigomez!

This just confirms my loyalties to Aeducan/Leliana and Brosca/Morrigan ships.

To me, it's awesome how these two dwarf backgrounds so wonderfully compliment Leliana and Morrgian's respected stories and seem such a natural fit in terms of a relationship.

Eh, I'm more on the Brosca/Leli ride myself, but those were heartwarming yet heartbroking thoughts! It's actually reminds me of Morri-Morri asking softly Galar if there could have been something between them after he completed her quest as a friend. She sounded so vulnerable.

Oh, I love Brosca/Leli too! And Leliana with Aeducan... and Brosca with Zevran, and-- Actually, I like every LI combo with both dwarfy origins. I'm just on a roll with Morrigan and Brosca tonight.

But I like Brosca/Leli because it makes me hum Uptown Girl under my breath, and I love that they're both city kids who're familiar with the seedy underbellies of their societies. It's nice as a redemption story, if you play a DC who wants to be more than a common thug. Both of them strive to be better people than they were. And Leliana with Aeducan is nice on several accounts... not only is The Game very much alive in Orzammar, but Aeducan can fall victim to it (if Bhelen played you) just like Leliana with Marjolaine, or else you could be guilty of killing Trian and once again it's a redemption arc. Love it!

Zevran and Brosca have everything in the world in common. They were both told from the outset that they were worth nothing, used and abused by people with more power, trapped in a world of death and sex trafficking and paaaiiiin. I doubt anyone in the group would understand Brosca's pre-Duncan life better than Zevran. He takes out the Crows and you take out a chunk of the Carta. Viva la revolución! And ofc he and Aeducan are intimately familiar with assassination attempts, and living the high life while constantly having to watch your back, lest someone stab it...

And Alistair is great with Brosca and Aeducan both, because you know Brosca never thought to land a decent guy like him, who makes her feel like there's nothing wrong with her at all, like she's the bravest and best woman in the world. And Aeducan knows all about the pressure that comes with being the child of a monarch, and we know Endrin and Maric spent time together...

Look, what I'm saying is that everybody needs to be smooching dwarves.

[Merela]

Oh, I love Brosca/Leli too! And Leliana with Aeducan... and Brosca with Zevran, and-- Actually, I like every LI combo with both dwarfy origins. I'm just on a roll with Morrigan and Brosca tonight.

But I like Brosca/Leli because it makes me hum Uptown Girl under my breath, and I love that they're both city kids who're familiar with the seedy underbellies of their societies. It's nice as a redemption story, if you play a DC who wants to be more than a common thug. Both of them strive to be better people than they were. And Leliana with Aeducan is nice on several accounts... not only is The Game very much alive in Orzammar, but Aeducan can fall victim to it (if Bhelen played you) just like Leliana with Marjolaine, or else you could be guilty of killing Trian and once again it's a redemption arc. Love it!

Zevran and Brosca have everything in the world in common. They were both told from the outset that they were worth nothing, used and abused by people with more power, trapped in a world of death and sex trafficking and paaaiiiin. I doubt anyone in the group would understand Brosca's pre-Duncan life better than Zevran. He takes out the Crows and you take out a chunk of the Carta. Viva la revolución! And ofc he and Aeducan are intimately familiar with assassination attempts, and living the high life while constantly having to watch your back, lest someone stab it...

And Alistair is great with Brosca and Aeducan both, because you know Brosca never thought to land a decent guy like him, who makes her feel like there's nothing wrong with her at all, like she's the bravest and best woman in the world. And Aeducan knows all about the pressure that comes with being the child of a monarch, and we know Endrin and Maric spent time together...

Look, what I'm saying is that everybody needs to be smooching dwarves.

 

Wisest words have never been spoken.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

 

Yeah, the "criminal dwarf" archetype for the DA series is getting pretty old. Then again, we kind of already got the "everyone starts off assuming he or she was seedy, then turn out to be noble (in personality)" shtick with Varric.

 

I feel like BioWare really clings to their comfort zone when it comes to dwarves. First we got Oghren, a Gimli knock-off. He wasn't very well-received. Then we got Sigrun, a chipper, snarky, likeable (criminal) dwarven rogue. She was really well-received. Guess what we got in DA2? Varric, a chipper, snarky, likable (criminal) dwarven rogue, only also  an ARCHER! Varric was a huge success, so the new dwarf characters they made in DAI, Bianca and Harding? Also snarky rogue archers. (I don't really count Dagna because she was adored in DAO, so they knew they'd have a good bet bringing her back.) I just kinda wish BioWare would branch out to more than one new shtick every new major dwarven character.

 

Well, you did also have Gorim in DA:O who was a straight up warm and loyal warrior. He had wit, but it wasn't his defining trait. The Dwarven Noble origin was actually pretty full of different types of dwarven NPCs. Unfortunately none of them become companions beyond the origin, but still.

[Ghost Gal]

Well, you did also have Gorim in DA:O who was a straight up warm and loyal warrior. He had wit, but it wasn't his defining trait. The Dwarven Noble origin was actually pretty full of different types of dwarven NPCs. Unfortunately none of them become companions beyond the origin, but still.

 

I also acknowledged him in one of my posts, then followed up by saying he left real quick. He's only there for the hour-long origin, then you can only have a brief conversation with him in Denerim, then you can only trade with him from then on out.

 

EDIT: And again, the dwarves we can hang out with for more than an hour (Oghren, Bodahn, Sigrun, Varric, Harding) tend to fall on the lower end of the "consistently honorable and law-abiding" scale. That's not to say they're not likable or moral in their own way. Pretty much every dwarf companion (besides Oghren) and dwarf employee (like Bodahn, Sandal, and Harding) has been a fan favorite, and many dwarf companions with questionable pasts/ties (like Sigrun and Varric) have their own sense of honor. I'm jst saying that still makes conventionally honorable warrior dwarf characters that the player spends a significant amount of time traveling or interacting with rare.

 

(Also, the Dwarf Noble Origin didn't have many overly positive examples. Most of the origin is spent hammering home how most dwarf nobles preach honor but practice poison. Most like the appearance of honor, but would just as soon stab you in the back to advance their own interests. That doesn't lend itself well to the genuinely honorable dwarf archetype being commonly encountered by the player.)

[BigBad]

Um, are there many examples of consistently and genuinely honorable anything in Dragon Age? The scarcity is not really limited to dwarves. The kind and noble human bard is a retired assassin/spy. The knight in shining armor is tainted with monster blood and part of an organization with absolutely no ethical standards or guidelines, after training for another organization of drug addicts and religious zealots. The elves are ex-slave berserkers, or blood mages, or assassins. The qunari are absolutely honorable up until the point where honor doesn't serve the purposes of the Qun, at which time they start killing people, stealing things, and setting stuff on fire. Hell, the only character I can think of off-hand who was consistently "honorable and law-abiding" is Aveline. Pretty much everyone else, even the goody-two-shoes characters, dipped their toes into shady business once in a while.

[Merela]

Um, are there many examples of consistently and genuinely honorable anything in Dragon Age? The scarcity is not really limited to dwarves. The kind and noble human bard is a retired assassin/spy. The knight in shining armor is tainted with monster blood and part of an organization with absolutely no ethical standards or guidelines, after training for another organization of drug addicts and religious zealots. The elves are ex-slave berserkers, or blood mages, or assassins. The qunari are absolutely honorable up until the point where honor doesn't serve the purposes of the Qun, at which time they start killing people, stealing things, and setting stuff on fire. Hell, the only character I can think of off-hand who was consistently "honorable and law-abiding" is Aveline. Pretty much everyone else, even the goody-two-shoes characters, dipped their toes into shady business once in a while.

 

Excuse me Sir, do you have time to talk about our lady and savior Cassandra Allegra Portia Calogera Filomena Pentaghast?

 

She smooches dwarves!

[BigBad]

Uh . . . typo? Actually, I'm sort of ashamed that I forgot to mention Cassandra, as she is one of my favorite characters in the franchise.

[Bhryaen]

Not sure why no one's mentioning Valta and Renn as "upstanding individual" types for dwarves. Late-comers to the dwarf line-up in DA and, of course, not exactly approachable any longer by the end of Descent, but still! Didn't have to be dyed-in-the-wool dwarf stereotypes, got to have a more mature relationship with each other and the protagonist's group, not immersed in the backstabbery of Orzammar's Achilles heel... sorta what folks have been advocating, no? So naturally they had to be killed and shuffled off. *stereotypical dwarfy grumble* Bah!

 

That said, I loved Leske- criminal or no (I hear he's ultimately not a Duster's best friend)- and Oghren wasn't entirely 2-dimensional (at least before DA:A) as his gate speech showed. And what's so "oh-that-again" with Sigrun? She had a lot of personality and humor for someone who'd been through the meat grinder of Dust Town and then jumped into the frying pan of the Legion. When writers can take a character that's very stereotype on the surface but then demonstrate through player experiences with them that they're fully people, that's something as well. DA is a fairly severe world to be able to create characters that aren't stamped by circumstance into cookie-cut critters. I mean, I agree, it would be great to have new roles for dwarves to fill, and DA is the sort of world to think beyond Scottish accents and "gimme an ale" every other sentence, but I'm not exactly unhappy or disappointed with the characters I've met in DA. (OK, Bianca... pretty lazy writing... makes every point mentioned thus far...)

[Tishina]

Well, you did also have Gorim in DA:O who was a straight up warm and loyal warrior. He had wit, but it wasn't his defining trait. The Dwarven Noble origin was actually pretty full of different types of dwarven NPCs. Unfortunately none of them become companions beyond the origin, but still.

Gorim, as you said, a pretty marginal character since he appears for such a short time and there are other dwarven NPCs who do appear and don't seem to be Carta or otherwise criminal. And maybe it's because I didn't play DA2, but I never got a sense of Varric as noble rather than mostly concerned with his own "family" until Trespasser (when we find out he's been funding Kirkwall's reconstruction.) And he's not an LI..

 

Not sure why no one's mentioning Valta and Renn as "upstanding individual" types for dwarves. Late-comers to the dwarf line-up in DA and, of course, not exactly approachable any longer by the end of Descent, but still! Didn't have to be dyed-in-the-wool dwarf stereotypes, got to have a more mature relationship with each other and the protagonist's group, not immersed in the backstabbery of Orzammar's Achilles heel... sorta what folks have been advocating, no? So naturally they had to be killed and shuffled off. *stereotypical dwarfy grumble* Bah!

 

That said, I loved Leske- criminal or no (I hear he's ultimately not a Duster's best friend)- and Oghren wasn't entirely 2-dimensional (at least before DA:A) as his gate speech showed. And what's so "oh-that-again" with Sigrun? She had a lot of personality and humor for someone who'd been through the meat grinder of Dust Town and then jumped into the frying pan of the Legion. When writers can take a character that's very stereotype on the surface but then demonstrate through player experiences with them that they're fully people, that's something as well. DA is a fairly severe world to be able to create characters that aren't stamped by circumstance into cookie-cut critters. I mean, I agree, it would be great to have new roles for dwarves to fill, and DA is the sort of world to think beyond Scottish accents and "gimme an ale" every other sentence, but I'm not exactly unhappy or disappointed with the characters I've met in DA. (OK, Bianca... pretty lazy writing... makes every point mentioned thus far...)

Valta definitely seems to be a detour on that archtype (and appears to be in unofficial exile anyway.) And Renn is Legion of the Dead, and that usually carries the probability of being in the Legion to expunge a crime, etc. But I was mostly referring to the PCs themselves. Harding and Valta are my hope for them finally breaking out of that trope...

[vertigomez]

Anyone care to feed me their headcanons about Brosca's father and Aeducan's mother?

[Krypplingz]

Anyone care to feed me their headcanons about Brosca's father and Aeducan's mother?

Like these?

Oh and they are pretty long, because my sentences are always way longer than they need to be. Sorry about that.

Masarian Aeducan.

Spoiler

Masarians mom was originally service cast, who lucked out to serve at one of King Endrins many feasts. It was the most exciting job of her life, and she might have indulged a bit, sipping some wine and flirting with Orzammars biggest players, while still knowing her place and doing her job.

So at the end of the night, when King Endrin summoned her to his quarters she thought her heart would burst. Sleeping with the king of Orzammar!

 

This was nothing compared to the horror when she found that the night bore fruit. Sure having the king son would be the most divine thing in the world, but should it be a girl?

She would never be allowed to live and taint Endrins honor. Would she be tossed in the deep roads? Gutted by a hidden knife? Tossed in the Lava pools?

The next months were horrible, sleepless and draining. Her parents were helpful in hiding her pregnancy, not knowing who the father was and wanting to avoid any speck of shame.

 

So she got a spot as one of Endrins concubines, her family raised in title and started competing in the noble game. Life became better, but it added more dangers as well.

She loved her own son, but spent little time with Endrins two other boys. The rest of her family paid lip service to the one that got them there, but for the most part Masarian and his mom where by themselves.

Masarians mom kept her son grounded, reminding him of his roots, teaching him subtle arts of defense and tried to guide him to a less combatant role in Orzammar. Trian could be Orzammars sword, Masarian would be the voice of reason.

 

She ended her life on Masarians twentieth birthday, accidental sip of a poisoned goblet, meant for another. Masarian and Endrin mourned, but life went on.  

Aldis Aeducan. (I don't remember how marraige works in Orzammar. Can a noble caste be wed to the king without having a son or is test pregnancy required?)

Spoiler

Aldis mom was from a close noble house and the marriage was a deal to strengthen the bonds between the two families. She and Endrin were close, but more friends than lovers. Her first child, a boy, died in his crib a few days after birth. The second child, Aldis, lived to become an adult.

Aldis mom had always been a rather docile woman, but became interested in the art of combat after marrying Endrin. She started studying sword play and became fairly decent. Not enough to hit the deep roads, but she could win one or two proving bouts. She was the reason for Aldis interest in combat, while her mother whacked some polite warrior caste in training her daughter stood to the side, watching with great enthusiasm.

As Aldis got older her mother interest in fighting waned, eventually she became the one sitting on the sidelines, watching her daughter fight the warrior caste.

Relationship wise, those two were never super close. But decent friends and for most of Aldis childhood she could come to her mother for advise and comforting words. As the children got older a small rift started to form between Aldis and her mother, especially as Endrin got older and Trian started training to become a king.

By the time Duncan came calling Aldis and her mother barely spoke. Her mother was sad to see her child leave, but she had other fights to fight, keeping her position and making new connections, now that Endrin had passed away.

They met briefly during Aldis return to Orzammar. Their meeting was rather stiff, her mother was slightly proud/slightly horrified that Aldis was a warden, they shared a knowing look and never spoke to each other again.   

Lily Brosca

Spoiler

Lily's father was a very charming man. He had fiery red hair and a huge smile. He was a con man, selling cheap jewelry made of fake stones and miracle ointments to the dwarves who had some gold in dust town. He also did a bit of savaging on the side, helping nameless nobles reclaim their ancestors foot massage tools from thaighs claimed by darkspawn and spiders.

He managed to charm Kalah out of her shoes and into his bed, back when the mines and booze hadn't robbed her senses. He loved little Rica as his own and was over the moon when Lily was born.

But as with most con men, his gig was slowly coming up and some mean fellows with sharp blades had come knocking. He begged Kalah to come with him topside, he had squirreled away enough money to by a cottage on the surface and buy some surface brontos and hairy nugs. But Kalah didn't want to go, it was too dangerous and abandoning the stone was even worse crime than being casteless.

He tried to take Rica and Lily with him, made it to the gates when Kalah came screaming behind him, tearing Lily out of his arms. The guards tried to intervene, there was chaos and Lilys dad made the flight or fight decision to make a run for it. He got to the middle of the hall to the surface before kneeling over, a crossbow bolt between his shoulders.

Kalah had made a similar decision, but snuck in the other direction with Rica and Lily, back into dust town. She never really knew what happened, but she suspected. And it hurt. So she turned the pain into anger, telling the girls that Lilys dad ran away, leaving them all behind.  

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I headcanon that my female Aeducan's grandmother's armor comes from her mother's side of the family and it was one of her mother's greatest wishes that she wear it when she came of age, which is why Endrin sounds so emotional about it the day of her command appointment. 

[dragonflight288]

Anyone care to feed me their headcanons about Brosca's father and Aeducan's mother?

 

I often headcanon that my Dwarf Noble, while the second son of Endrin, was born from from a casteless noble hunter. It helps me explain to myself why my Dwarf Noble Warden looks different from Endrin, Trian and Bhelen, and also why Endrin favored him so much. I like to think there was genuine affection between Endrin and whoever Warden Aeducan's mother was, raised as a concubine in the house. We know that most nobles look favorably on noble hunters as it helps replenish their numbers to fight darkspawn, although I think they lose more dwarves to political infighting than darkspawn, 

 

It allows me to headcanon the varying responses an Aeducan might have. Would their noble birth and background make them more traditional or would they be more sympathetic to the plight of lower castes and casteless because of his mother?

[Ghost Gal]

Um, are there many examples of consistently and genuinely honorable anything in Dragon Age? The scarcity is not really limited to dwarves. The kind and noble human bard is a retired assassin/spy. The knight in shining armor is tainted with monster blood and part of an organization with absolutely no ethical standards or guidelines, after training for another organization of drug addicts and religious zealots. The elves are ex-slave berserkers, or blood mages, or assassins. The qunari are absolutely honorable up until the point where honor doesn't serve the purposes of the Qun, at which time they start killing people, stealing things, and setting stuff on fire. Hell, the only character I can think of off-hand who was consistently "honorable and law-abiding" is Aveline. Pretty much everyone else, even the goody-two-shoes characters, dipped their toes into shady business once in a while.

 

That may be so, but then again the closest thing to unambiguously "good/noble/honorable" characters this franchise can muster have been the "Knight in Shining Armor" types, who were all human. The whole stinking Cousland family, Aveline, Cassandra, etc. I would kind of like it if we'd have a "knight in shining armor" type (even one who's still flawed and complex, like Alistair and Cullen) who just happens to be a dwarf, or elf, or whatever.

 

Regardless, my original point was that I think Blackwall as a character, and his character arch, would have been much more interesting had he been a dwarf. Before he's outed, a lot of people (myself included) kind of felt, "Oh, another 'Knight in Shining Armor'-type human warrior companion?" When he's outed as a former criminal, it moved some people, but it left others kind of cold. Some people (myself included) felt Blackwall was so boring to begin with that they didn't really care when he was revealed as a liar. I personally think being a dwarf would have made him more interesting to begin with, and his character arc of struggling between appearing honorable and being honorable for real could have been used to explore some facet of dwarf culture, the dwarf plight, and possibly connected to dwarf society's eternal struggle with the appearance of honor verses genuine honor. I think it's an interesting theme worth exploring, but it's squandered on an average human guy with kind of an average story.

 

Plus, like I said, while I love dwarves, I just kind of wish BioWare would branch out a little more from their comfort zone and give us dwarven companions (besides Oghren) who aren't just wise-cracking rogues. Don't get me wrong, I love Sigrun, Varric, and Harding, but 2/3 dwarf companions being wise-cracking rogues, and 3/4 major Inquisition dwarven characters (Varric, Harding, Bianca, and Dagna) being archers has kind of left me wanting more. A warrior dwarf doesn't have to be a Gimli knock-off, and a dwarf companion doesn't have to be a snarky rogue to avoid the Gimli stereotype.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Anyone care to feed me their headcanons about Brosca's father and Aeducan's mother?

 

Brosca's Father: This is embarrassing, but I didn't know about Brosca's father on my first playthrough, so I headcanoned that Rica and my Tatia were the results of a failed attempt at noble-hunting. I headcanoned that Kalah was a noble-hunter when she was younger, and found a rather reluctant noble patron who was rather pompous and self-absorbed and just wanted a son to name after himself. Then Rica was born. He then grew impatient and gave Kalah one more chance, but when my Tatia came out a girl he dumped her for another noble-hunter to give him a son. Kalah then sank into despair and started drinking her sorrows away (and abusing her daughters out of resentment for not being boys), and Rica and my Tatia had to get by on their own. This was partly to explain why Kalah seems to favor Rica (since she resented my gal for costing her everything), and partly to explain why my gal starts off the game as the more "tomboy" of the sisters, and uses her muscle to make a living instead of her legs like Rica--because part of her has internalized the sense of blame from her family; "If you'd been born a boy, we wouldn't be caseteless."

 

Then I made a Brosca who actually talked to Kalah and Rica longer than two seconds, and learned that it's canon that my gal's father was a fellow casteless who wanted to leave for the surface, but Kalah was too scared to go with him, so he left without his family, so she turned to drink to forget. Whoops.

 

My second Brosca, "Patches," is much more optimistic and big-dreaming like her father had been. I headcanon that he didn't abandon his family, he just meant to go up first, make a decent living, then come back for his family. Show Kalah the surface is livable by example. He was killed on the road by bandits not too long after, so now Kalah and Rica still believe he abandoned them, with only "Patches" to fulfill his dream.

 

Aeducan's Mother: As others have said, I headcanoned that she was a casteless noble-hunter, which is why my Aeducan is more sympathetic to the common folk.