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rationalizing certain things as a "good guy"


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#1
Hero

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The upcoming release of Dragon Age Inquisition has caused me to reassess my roleplaying and choices in the past games. This has caused me to become a little undecided on certain choices.

 

So I'm wondering, how do you guys rationalize a good Human Noble doing things such as siding with Bhelen or romancing morrigan or sparing loghain or doing the dark ritual? how about using blood magic to save connor instead of getting the mages to help?

 

Feel free to ask your own questions and to debate answers and opinions



#2
Elhanan

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My HN canonical Warden refused to save Sten or Zevran, as they seemed much like the filth that invaded his estate.

I only sided with Bhelen once as I recall, as to help my Dwarven Commoner's sister; went with Harrowmont in other sessions.

Believe Alistair performed the DR, and the Warden married Anora; remaining faithful to her alone, I believe.

Greatest personal triumph was slaying Howe with the family sword and shield set; felt like justice.

#3
Hydwn

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Well, if you're going to use real-world history as a jumping-off point, I don't think the aristocratic classes ever had too much trouble rationalizing anything :P

 

Seriously, though, power's always found means to justify what it wants.  The mantra of "done for the greater good" has always been built into both the aristocratic ethos and - in the context of the Dragon Age world - into the Grey Wardens' ethos as well.



#4
Darkly Tranquil

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I think all those things can be justified depending on how you look at it.

Behlen: He wants to reform Orzammar's caste system so that the currently unproductive casteless can actually become useful members of dwarves society, which they need as they will likely die out if they don't change their ways. Although he might be a ruthless, backstabbing, fratricidal toad, his goals are likely to improve Orzammar and the lives of the casteless in particular. It's a greater-good/ends-justify-the-means kind of choice.

Morrigan: It depends on how you see her I guess. I never really saw Morrigan as evil. Rather she is mostly unsocialised (due to living in the woods) and has not received an upbringing to equip her with any kind of moral framework to actually deal with others as anything other than impediments or threats. But once you, as the Warden, engage with her and show her that not all emotion is weakness and that there can be purpose in doing good, she begins to develop as a character, questioning what her mother has taught her, challenging Flemeth's plans for her, and (if your romance her) daring to risk falling in love. Sure, she remains aloof and acerbic, but that is a defence against anyone getting too close; it's her armour against her underlying emotional vulnerability in a world she is unfamiliar with. At the end, she seeks to go through with the ritual not simply because it's what Flemeth wants, but because she does not want her friend/love to die. Thus we see Morrigan's evolution from callous schemer to fully human person who cares for others despite the risks and in spite of everything she has been raised to believe. That's my take on Morrigan anyway. I think she is one of the most complex characters in all of DA.

Loghain: this one is a tough one for me, because personally I hate Loghain and I kill him every time. But for the sake of argument: Loghain is a living legend, the hero of the rebellion and King Maric's right hand. He is Ferelden's greatest tactician and a great warrior in his own right. He has done many things wrong during the Blight, but he has also given a lifetime of service to Ferelden. Many would argue that having him atone for his sins as a Grey Warden is both poetic justice and offers an opportunity for him to still serve Ferelden in its hour of need. Given the Grey Wardens have a history of recruiting the condemned, it would not be especially unusual, although Loghain's crimes are perhaps more serious than the average petty criminal. I guess it depends if you think his long history of devotion to Ferelden offsets his recent crimes enough to warrant giving him a second chance.

The Dark Ritual: the most likely reason for doing the DR is not wanting to be the one to make the Ultimate Sacrifice. Given that the US is more than just death,
Spoiler
, there is likely to be a strong desire to find an alternative way out that ends the Blight without the US. The Warden might also accept what Morrigan says about purifying the essence of the old god, which she describes as being something of value that ought to be preserved. Ultimately, I think it comes down to a simple desire not to die (true heroes of that type are few and far between) and accepting an alternate way out. Sure it might have consequences, but that is a battle for another day.

Saving Connor: This is a tricky one too. The Warden's options are:
Kill a child.
Allow Isolde (who is responsible for the whole mess) to die in the blood ritual)
Risk going to the Circle and hope Connor doesn't destroy the rest of Redcliffe in the meantime.
This whole choice comes down to a balancing of the value of lives versus the risks of saving them. Clearly, the idea of killing a child is pretty abhorrent to most honourable/ethical people, but the risk he poses to many other lives makes it an option that must be considered. Going to the Circle is a risk, because in the time it takes to go there and come back, Connor could raise more undead and kill the remaining inhabitants of Redcliffe; can the lives of the surviving citizens of Redcliffe be risked for the sake of one life? Or, one can take up Jowan's offer of the ritual. It will offer the best chance of saving Connor's life and without the risk of the Warden and co having to leave. The only downside is that it is blood magic (which is taboo to most Thedosians) and that Isolde dies. But given that she has caused the whole mess, and she is willing to sacrifice herself, it offers a relatively simple solution to an otherwise messy problem. Basically, given what the Warden knows at the time, it's the least worst option available of a bad bunch.
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#5
Hero

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@Darkly Tranquil

Seems like you got a pretty good assessment of all the issues and pretty good reasoning behind each of the choices

 

Admittedly, in the case of Morrigan, I guess choosing to romance her isn't so much a problem, it's more choosing her over Leliana. When I look at the Human Nobles background, it seems to me like it would make more sense for him to hook up with someone like Leliana, especially since my HN is a very moral person, and she seems more like the type of girl I go for (my characters always tend to be influenced by my own personality and views), but Morrigan's background, personality and potential for character development intrigues me.

 

What do you think?



#6
dekarserverbot

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I don't rationalize, I act:

Sereda Aeduncan was my goody two shoes warden commander, she tried to save everyone but sometimes things went out of control: she told Lelianna "you know that she is not going to leave you..." and that made a battle even if she just aimed to settle things in another way.

On the other hand Karl the mage was pursuiting freedom for everyone (except the darkspawn of course) when he came to Lothering and was boarded by the bandits he just said "do you really want to face a mage" my favorite of them Hanric went running crying that he doesn't want to be a toad, while the others went to their doom.

Rationalizing gives me headaches and makes me want to punch everyone in the face... so i don't do that



#7
theskymoves

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I find the easiest way to 'rationalize' making certain decisions is to remember that the Warden doesn't have the benefit of all the meta knowledge that I have, and to restrict what in-world information they are privy to.

 

My super goody-goody Chantry devout Moira Cousland blithely did lots of things that I know were the "bad" choice.

 

She

  • kinged Behlen (Zero curiosity or interest in Dwarven politics, Behlen's guy got to her first, and she just wanted SOMEONE to agree to abide by the treaty. Also, she never even met with Harrowmont);
  • annulled the mage circle (She was Chantry devout in a very literal, naive fashion, and profoundly disliked mages.); and
  • let Connor die, or rather, had no other choice, since other than Wynne, all the mages were dead already. (Including Jowan-in-the-dungeon. Oops.)

Since the whole reason for Moira's PT was so I could have a Queen Cousland + romanced!King!Alistair - my other Queen Cousland roped unhardened Alistair into a forever chaste political marriage - it was imperative that the Dark Ritual happen. My justification for Mo making what would be a very OOC decision was:

  • Morrigan was expelled from the party in Lothering (making the full 'flavour' of her agenda and personality something neither Moira or Alistair had knowledge of);
  • the romance between Alistair and the Warden had only just begun - the full flush of Brand-y New First Love ™ makes even the most sensible and serious girl super-stupid;
  • and what I call the "WTF, Riordan? You didn't think that was IMPORTANT?" Factor. (Shock, surprise, impending and certain doom, etc.)

 

And after I steered the dialogue so Moira got this wake up call (with some bolding for emphasis)

 

 

Silly Warden: I don't trust you. I have no interest in your ritual.

Shrewd Morrigan: And what if you find yourself facing the dreaded archdemon alone come the battle? Will you still feel the same then? And if not you, then what of Alistair? What if it is he that faces the archdemon? Are you so willing to let him perish?

 

it made perfect sense that she'd buy time by agreeing (and worry about how to fix it later).



#8
Mike3207

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I think doing things like making Bhelen the King and sparing Loghain is the good choice for a Human Noble-but that's just me.



#9
Dabrikishaw

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The upcoming release of Dragon Age Inquisition has caused me to reassess my roleplaying and choices in the past games. This has caused me to become a little undecided on certain choices.

 

So I'm wondering, how do you guys rationalize a good Human Noble doing things such as siding with Bhelen or romancing morrigan or sparing loghain or doing the dark ritual? how about using blood magic to save connor instead of getting the mages to help?

 

Feel free to ask your own questions and to debate answers and opinions

 

Siding with Bhelen: Orzammar needs progress for casteless dwarves and surface trade. Bhelen is the one that puts Orzammar on the path to this progress.

 

Morrigan and her ritual: I admit to seeing nothing dubious about falling in love with Morrigan, but her ritual is a risk for the future.

 

Loghain: I've only sparred him twice, and only under the pretense of playing an evil Warden. A good guy could try to offer him a chance at redemption..

 

Connor: Again, having Jowen use blood magic to enter a mage into the fade can be an example of his sincerity in wanting to make up for poisoning Eamon. 



#10
Hero

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Siding with Bhelen: Orzammar needs progress for casteless dwarves and surface trade. Bhelen is the one that puts Orzammar on the path to this progress.

 

Morrigan and her ritual: I admit to seeing nothing dubious about falling in love with Morrigan, but her ritual is a risk for the future.

 

Loghain: I've only sparred him twice, and only under the pretense of playing an evil Warden. A good guy could try to offer him a chance at redemption..

 

Connor: Again, having Jowen use blood magic to enter a mage into the fade can be an example of his sincerity in wanting to make up for poisoning Eamon. 

Admittedly, for romancing Morrigan it's not a matter of it being dubious, it's just whether it would make sense, refer to what I posted under Darkly Tranquil's post for more details



#11
Darkly Tranquil

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@Darkly Tranquil
Seems like you got a pretty good assessment of all the issues and pretty good reasoning behind each of the choices
 
Admittedly, in the case of Morrigan, I guess choosing to romance her isn't so much a problem, it's more choosing her over Leliana. When I look at the Human Nobles background, it seems to me like it would make more sense for him to hook up with someone like Leliana, especially since my HN is a very moral person, and she seems more like the type of girl I go for (my characters always tend to be influenced by my own personality and views), but Morrigan's background, personality and potential for character development intrigues me.
 
What do you think?


I think you can rationalise it however you want. Attraction doesn't have to make logical sense. Sometimes a person being exotic and very different is part of the attraction (opposites attract and all). Perhaps your Warden has grown up around prim and proper noble Andrastian girls and has never met a woman as confident and unrestrained as Morrigan before and find himself fascinated by her? I don't think you need to overthink it to much. If all else fails, blame the dumbstick.
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#12
Hero

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I think you can rationalise it however you want. Attraction doesn't have to make logical sense. Sometimes a person being exotic and very different is part of the attraction (opposites attract and all). Perhaps your Warden has grown up around prim and proper noble Andrastian girls and has never met a woman as confident and unrestrained as Morrigan before and find himself fascinated by her? I don't think you need to overthink it to much. If all else fails, blame the dumbstick.

 

Hmm...makes sense; Thank you for answering.

 

And remember people, feel free to ask ask your own questions about your own "good guy" wardens.



#13
Hero

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I've come up with another question

 

What about marrying Alistair to Anora? Sure it makes political sense, but it also means marrying him to a woman he doesn't even love; it's even worse if you keep Loghain alive all the way to the end. Seems like kind of a cruddy thing to do to the guy.

 

What do you guys think?


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#14
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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In what insane world is siding with my main myn Bhelen something that needs to be rationalized?

 

He'll be a stronger king than Harrowmont ever could be and will drag the dwarves to glory whether they want it or not.



#15
TheSeekerofLulz

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In what insane world is siding with my main myn Bhelen something that needs to be rationalized?

 

He'll be a stronger king than Harrowmont ever could be and will drag the dwarves to glory whether they want it or not.

Oh I don't know, because he's corrupt and had at bare minimum two members of his immediate family killed, 3 if you are the DN. Say what you want about Harrowmont, but he at least follows Orzammar's laws. Considering he doesn't last long as king anyway, there's a chance a fair ruler, who isn't as corrupt as the darkspawn, will become the next king(or maybe even queen) of Orzammar. 



#16
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Oh I don't know, because he's corrupt and had at bare minimum two members of his immediate family killed, 3 if you are the DN. Say what you want about Harrowmont, but he at least follows Orzammar's laws. Considering he doesn't last long as king anyway, there's a chance a fair ruler, who isn't as corrupt as the darkspawn, will become the next king(or maybe even queen) of Orzammar. 

 

Orzammar's laws and traditions are going to lead them to their doom.

 

Better a visonary tyrant than a weak fool who can only lead through compromise and capitulation.


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#17
TheSeekerofLulz

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Orzammar's laws and traditions are going to lead them to their doom.

 

Better a visonary tyrant than a weak fool who can only lead through compromise and capitulation.

<_< Any excuse to support a tyrant. For the chance that his policies might actually work in the long run. Meanwhile, he has every person who dares to challenge him executed. I like how people are always trying to justify being complete jerks here. 

 

"Sure you can live, in slums. But hey, go human society and human religion."

"Sure you can live, but you have to do exactly what I say or you'll die."

"Enjoy this tower, death, or lobotomy. There are no other choices."

"You're joining and there's nothing you can do about it."

"Hey, be my battery, but you get you to live." 

 

:rolleyes: Such great examples of the greater good that seem to always backfire. 



#18
The Flying Grey Warden

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I spared loghain because it was the right thing to do. He stood down, he's a skilled warrior and I've ensured he'll not come to power again. Additionally, the assets that helped loghain could be put to the war effort against the dark spawn with him on our side. Showing mercy on him is the moral choice, and the practical choice, in that equation. 



#19
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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<_< Any excuse to support a tyrant. For the chance that his policies might actually work in the long run. Meanwhile, he has every person who dares to challenge him executed.

 

 

A ruler securing his position on the throne and forcing through reforms to ensure the survival of his people?!

 

Truly there has never been a more evil man than he!

 

I have seen the light! Better to let the dwarves continue their slide towards extinction by having an "honorable" man lead them!



#20
Elhanan

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In what insane world is siding with my main myn Bhelen something that needs to be rationalized?
 
He'll be a stronger king than Harrowmont ever could be and will drag the dwarves to glory whether they want it or not.


Because rationalization is the only reason I had to save him in the single playthrough where he lived. My DC did it for his sister; all my other Warden's prefer Harrowmont.

#21
TheSeekerofLulz

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A ruler securing his position on the throne and forcing through reforms to ensure the survival of his people?!

 

Truly there has never been a more evil man than he!

 

I have seen the light! Better to let the dwarves continue their slide towards extinction by having an "honorable" man lead them!

A ruler whom can't lead by example has no reason to lead at all. 



#22
Nukekitten

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The upcoming release of Dragon Age Inquisition has caused me to reassess my roleplaying and choices in the past games. This has caused me to become a little undecided on certain choices.
 
So I'm wondering, how do you guys rationalize a good Human Noble doing things such as siding with Bhelen or romancing morrigan or sparing loghain or doing the dark ritual? how about using blood magic to save connor instead of getting the mages to help?
 
Feel free to ask your own questions and to debate answers and opinions


Could be almost anything.

###################

Chains. She'd always known she'd end up here. Just like her parents, just like Alistair. Just like so many lives broken for the greater good.

Hero. Conqueror. Warlord. King maker, life taker. She'd made Anora queen, she'd consorted with blood mages, she'd made Bhelen king, she'd saved Connor with blood magic. A world in chaos had promoted many opportunities for someone who could see the right moments, the right weaknesses. But tactical brilliance did not imply strategic acumen in a period of relative stability.

She hung from the wall, limbs twisted and broken like a blood-covered octopus. The glow of magic was the only thing holding her together, it was no kindness.

"So, Warden." Melodious, the voice was out of place among the blood and screaming.

Alana twitched. Her words came as rattling whispers, almost too quiet to hear.

"Anora. Come to dirty your dress?"

"Dear Maker, what have they done to you?"

"You had... had me tortured. What... What did you expect?"

"There was nothing personal in it. I simply need what you know, unfortunately."

Alana's body shook with dry retches. "For pity's sake. Let me die in peace. I - I earned that at least. Let it end."

Anora drew herself back. "Something for the pain for something for the realm. I think that's a fair trade at least, don't you?"

The octopus twitched and breath rasped, it might have been a nod.

"Very well. Healer? --- Now then. Answers, you've only got so long, and I'm sure we'd both prefer to be done with this little bit of unpleasantness before that wears off: Why make Bhelen king? Why use blood magic? Why make my father a warden? Many of the things that you have done do not favour Ferelden."

"Many of the things I've done," Alana paused, her lungs spasming within broken ribs. "Are the only reason Ferelden will be here tomorrow."

"And my interest is to see that it persists; that my children take up a strong crown."

"One of those things, is not like the other."

"What do you mean?"

"You need the dwarves. Lyrium. Templars. Mages. Balance of powers. The dwarves... dwarves need reform. Social structure in-inimicable to long-term survival. Bhelen king today - but." What remained of her face pulled into a mockery of a smile. "Kings die, didn't you notice? Today king, then someone else. Instability limits potential damage as it promotes possibility of change. Leverage in right direction now, loses power long term. Unavoidable: Bh-elen not that smart. Just ruthless. Passes for intelligence in a bad light. Too long playing at politics. Dwarven you."

"And blood magic?"

"Hedge bets with dwarves: Alternate source of power. Saved Malificar to ensure survival of knowledge outside of circle when circle lost. Different social class to Magisters: Wouldn't be friends. Tevinter takes over - core of potential rebellion. Tevinter doesn't - encourages existence of Templars as counteragent to Mals. All societies that reach an asymptote with their threat environment stagnate. Long term: technology over magic. Have to change economic structure of Ferelden to keep up. That or death. World for mages and mundanes. Keep you honest."

"And my father?"

"... I was never cruel. Did what I had to do. Only person who was willing. Bound you to me- short term. Hostage. And Allistair? He would have been a great king, and a terrible one. Would have ruled in peace. People would've loved him. But he didn't want to be god. You do: Eternal rule. We need someone insane. Running down the streets dog mad, that's you Anora. Increases mimetic mutation rate of society. Imposes selection pressure. Mad crown: stronger lords, more unity. You just think you're smart because you know how to benefit yourself. But you know nothing of working with people, only how to dominate them. In the absence of that skill, they'll work together. They'll have to. No cruelty is eternal - but all cruelty fails and represents a chance to change. Needed Ferelden to burn in a specific way. No good if just weakens and dies. Two generations, that's my bet."

"I am not insane." Anora sniffed. "Insanity was coming here, if you could see what would happen to you."

"Here, there. What did it matter? Bhelen wants me dead. You want me dead. The Templars want me dead. Doesn't matter - dead already. Everyone I've ever loved is dead. Months of killing, months of walking through crap and blood. Every waking moment. Training to be stronger, faster. Eating. Being healed to grow muscles. Training again. Do you think it's natural? This strength? I'd die before I was twenty anyway. Burnt too much of my life training and healing and killing. A few years before it all breaks down? The smell, Anora. Sweet Maker the smell. You can't imagine. And killing. Killing's the only thing I'm good at. Good for. What was left?"

"Then why not simply go to your death against the Archdemon?"

"Hedge bets. If taints goes to baby, maybe not just grey wardens that can kill it so that it stays dead. Don't know how it works - worth trying even if success improbable. Old god baby a risk. But... babies are easier to kill than dragons." A bitter coughing laugh. "I should know."

"This is all meaningless. You can't know what will happen. You can't just make up these pretty little stories like something in the history books."

"Believe what you like. Read some history, see the patterns. The patterns are what matters. We've come too far. Momentum has taken over. All this: The politics you do. This narrow self-interest? This is just drapery hung over something uglier."

A broken limb dragged blood across the floor, "This is what victory looks like, Anora."

"Victory? You're dying, and I have no intention to end up like... that."

"Did you think I didn't know the price? If there's to be a better world, neither of us can live there.... The pain is coming back. Make an end of it. Please. If anything I've done counts, make an end."

"Very well. I can see I've been wasting my time here. And you have earned this, one way or another." Anora gestured sharply to the healer.

And the darkness rushed in to take away the pain.

#23
cJohnOne

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I don't know that Bhelen is bad unless I'm doing the Dwarf noble origin.  Even then it's more of a personal grievance.  So my character could lack information.  Or is there something that tells you different? 

 

On reflection there is a moral dilemma allowing a Old god soul in a new child to be raised by Morrigan.  I guess we will never know how that turned out mahhaaaah.



#24
Darkly Tranquil

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I've come up with another question
 
What about marrying Alistair to Anora? Sure it makes political sense, but it also means marrying him to a woman he doesn't even love; it's even worse if you keep Loghain alive all the way to the end. Seems like kind of a cruddy thing to do to the guy.
 
What do you guys think?


Marriages among nobles are rarely a matter of preference, they are generally political and economic arrangements intended to cement alliances. So in order to secure unity against the Blight and to appease both the traditionalist (pro-Threirin) faction and the pro-Anora faction, it makes political sense and would be considered quite a normal and acceptable solution among the nobility. While it might not make Alistair and Anora personally happy, it would serve the greater good of Ferelden.

If you harden Alistair, he comes to see the necessity of it all, and although he will be angry if you spare Loghain, he does kind of get over it in the end.

#25
theskymoves

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Marriages among nobles are rarely a matter of preference, they are generally political and economic arrangements intended to cement alliances.

 

Ah! Just like what Eamon was advocating re Cailan and Empress Celene!  ;)