90 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

To the original question. I don't think you can actually rationalize siding with Bhelen, the games pretty much doesn't bother to explain what consequence each king might have for Orzammar. So, I for one sided with him purely out of metagaming.

 

I don't see why it's such an problem romancing Morrigan with an human noble, you don't really need to agree with her every statement during conversation. She starts as harsh, but she kinds of softens as her romance goes. Maybe you can just play as an warden that is simply starts by being attracted to her because she is pretty?

 

You may spare Loghain for different reasons, it might be because you believe the greater good is more important then personal revenge, it may be out of spite against Alistair and the grey wardens because you disagree with their methods, or simply because you believe everyone deserves an second chance.

 

The dark ritual, could done because you love Morrigan or because you trust she knows what she is doing.

 

Using the blood magic ritual instead of going to the circle is just an logical choice. How are we to guess without metagaming that leaving Redcliffe for the circle won't cause the demon to go on an rampage again?

[Darkly Tranquil]

Ah! Just like what Eamon was advocating re Cailan and Empress Celene! 

Pretty much. I was speaking in general terms about marriage practices among the nobility in the kinds of Fuedal European cultures DA is based on.
Ref: http://www.lordsandl...middle-ages.htm (specifically the section - Noble Women and Marriage)

[Hero]

You know, I asked about sparing Loghain, but now I want to hear about how you all justify executing him.

 

Oh, and also what about hardening Leliana?

[Sidney]

Bhelen is what sort of good guy you are. I had a good city elf that sympathized with Bhelen's push to end the caste system and the oppression it had.

 

Morrigan is really about being willing to convince yourself that under all the layers of f'ed up that Flemeth layers on there is a  good person underneath. Love is blind and really stupid too sometimes so that works.

 

Sparing Loghain is easy, again same city elf didn't like executions because of the way they were used on his people. The rationalization for killing him is really about vengeance and expediency anyways so that is hard to justify on the good side to me.

 

The DR I think is the hardest one and I don't have a good one for it for a good guy. That good elf was really my only run and he didn't do the ritual.

[Hero]

truth be told, the one choice that really leaves me unsettled is whether or not to spare loghain. It seems like the noble thing to do, giving a man a chance to make things right, but it really feels like I'm stabbing Alistair in the back, and considering his comment in dragon age 2 as king, he never seems to let it go.

[ObserverStatus]

So I'm wondering, how do you guys rationalize a good Human Noble doing things such as siding with Bhelen or romancing morrigan or sparing loghain or doing the dark ritual? how about using blood magic to save connor instead of getting the mages to help?

Feel free to ask your own questions and to debate answers and opinions

Siding with Bhelen- He's not a nice guy, but the reforms he's planning will probably benefit Orzimmar overall.

Romancing Morrigan- Why not?

Sparing Loghain- Loghain did nothing wrong, he had to save Ferelden from Calian, he was planning to hand Ferelden over to the Orlesians as a wedding present.

Using the dark ritual- Being the parent of a living God has its perks. If you don't let Morrigan have the soul of the archdemon you murdered, she'd probably just find another archdemon and take its soul. Now if you agree to the dark ritual and become the Old God's father you'll get the opportunity to raise them to be nicer than Morrigan.

Using Blood Magic- How did you know Connor wouldn't raise another army of skeletons and wipe out the village while you were away at the mages tower? Exactly, you didn't. Using blood magic was the only way to insure that the people of Redridge would survive long enough for you to have sex with the desire demon free Connor from the desire demon.

[sylvanaerie]

truth be told, the one choice that really leaves me unsettled is whether or not to spare loghain. It seems like the noble thing to do, giving a man a chance to make things right, but it really feels like I'm stabbing Alistair in the back, and considering his comment in dragon age 2 as king, he never seems to let it go.

 

If  your Warden is the type who feels everyone (even Loghain) deserves a second chance to make up for their mistakes, harden Alistair, recruit Loghain and marry Alistair to Anora.  It destroys your friendship, toolset notes at the post coronation for Alistair's dialogues say he's bitter about what's happened--I don't know where players are getting this 'he gets over it' crap.  Maybe eventually he will, but his dialogue in DA2 suggests 7 years later it still galls him that Loghain got off with a slap on the wrist.  So, if he's a consideration at all (and not saying he should be since his motives are more about revenge than justice) then think it over a bit more.

 

I won't argue that sparing him is a 'good' or 'evil' choice.  That boils down to you as a player and what you feel proper justice for his crimes (and they are numerous, excuses of uber-patriotism notwithstanding) should be.

 

The one warden (a Cousland) I had who spared Loghain did so, not for his own sake but Anora's--who Roland identified with.  The destruction of his home and family was so traumatizing Roland had PTSD and couldn't slaughter a father in front of his child.  I decided to go with all three endings available (to see new scenes I hadn't) and forced Loghain to do the dark ritual (so Roland wouldn't be cheating on Leliana) and then reloaded after finishing off the archdemon, refused her and finished with first Loghain sacrificing himself, then my warden.

 

Admittedly, it was more about seeing new scenes than truly justifying his actions for roleplaying purposes.

[Darkly Tranquil]

You know, I asked about sparing Loghain, but now I want to hear about how you all justify executing him.

 

Oh, and also what about hardening Leliana?

 

Putting aside whether you think his actions at Ostagar were justified (personally I don't), he engineered a plot to poison Arl Eamon, he sold Ferelden citizens into slavery (even if they were elves), he allied with Arl Howe and tolerated his numerous outrageous attrocities, and he waged war on the Bannorn when they refused to bow to his illegitimate seizure of power; in his mad quest to protect Ferelden, he trampled over everything that it stands for. He was a paranoid, self-deluding, control freak who refused to address the threat at their doorstep (the Blight) in favour of obsessing over the more distant threat of Orlais (actively hindering the fight against the Blight in the process), who needed to be put down for the good of everyone. A clean execution at the Landsmeet was better than he deserved. 

 

As for Leliana, I always thought hardening her was kind of an odd notion. She was a bard for years, surely you don't get much more hardened than that. I guess enhancing her inner toughness to do what needs to be done will serve her well in the years to come in her role as a Seeker  (but that is meta knowledge).

[Nukekitten]

You know, I asked about sparing Loghain, but now I want to hear about how you all justify executing him.

He was incompetent. That alone might have been tolerated even winked at - one can always use a cat's paw. But he was incompetent and powerful and untrustworthy. Let him live and who knows when another mad-fit of stupid would seize him, to the ruin of us all? I had a chance to tie up a loose end, and to visibly demonstrate to the Landsmeet the price of acting against me.
 

Oh, and also what about hardening Leliana?

I didn't need someone who would flinch when the time came to slip the knife in. I had her loyalty, now it was time to make her useful.

[Hero]

If  your Warden is the type who feels everyone (even Loghain) deserves a second chance to make up for their mistakes, harden Alistair, recruit Loghain and marry Alistair to Anora.  It destroys your friendship, toolset notes at the post coronation for Alistair's dialogues say he's bitter about what's happened--I don't know where players are getting this 'he gets over it' crap.  Maybe eventually he will, but his dialogue in DA2 suggests 7 years later it still galls him that Loghain got off with a slap on the wrist.  So, if he's a consideration at all (and not saying he should be since his motives are more about revenge than justice) then think it over a bit more.

 

I won't argue that sparing him is a 'good' or 'evil' choice.  That boils down to you as a player and what you feel proper justice for his crimes (and they are numerous, excuses of uber-patriotism notwithstanding) should be.

 

The one warden (a Cousland) I had who spared Loghain did so, not for his own sake but Anora's--who Roland identified with.  The destruction of his home and family was so traumatizing Roland had PTSD and couldn't slaughter a father in front of his child.  I decided to go with all three endings available (to see new scenes I hadn't) and forced Loghain to do the dark ritual (so Roland wouldn't be cheating on Leliana) and then reloaded after finishing off the archdemon, refused her and finished with first Loghain sacrificing himself, then my warden.

 

Admittedly, it was more about seeing new scenes than truly justifying his actions for roleplaying purposes.

I suppose I could just have Loghain kill the archdemon; ultimately Alistair seems to just want to see Loghain dead, so that scenario seems to be the only one that involves sparing Loghain where it's possible he'll ever "get over it" and forgive my warden

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A ruler whom can't lead by example has no reason to lead at all. 

Then there is no option in the dichotomy who truly deserves to rule. What else is new?

[Lavaeolus]

A Stereotypically Good Warden:

siding with Bhelen

The greater good is a concept that is often misused for "being a total dickhead", but it's one that can be used right. Your Warden wants to end Orzammar's isolation, improve surfacer/dwarf relations, and he wants to end the suffering of the casteless. And maybe in the long run help restore a civilisation and save lives! This'll be easier if they're a touch pragmatic and might not work for a character who is good and either incredibly idealistic or kinda stupid, but you can always have them not pick up on Bhelen's deviousness. If they're a Dwarf Commoner, they want to help their sister and not plunge her into darkness and kill her husband. All valid motivations for a stereotypically "good" character.
 

romancing morrigan

Your Warden cannot control their own heart, dear Hero! I hear good people, they follow their hearts. Besides, heroes have a habit of doing this sort of thing (I could link more tropes like those if I could be arsed). Remember: just because you lie on two different ends of an alignment spectrum, doesn't mean you can't bump uglies or snog. Romancing Morrigan is hardly an inherently evil act.
 

sparing loghain

You can call out a lot of words to cement your status as a hero, but alongside "For honour!", "Duty!", and "Justice!" is "Mercy!". Well, it doesn't work quite as well as a battlecry, but "mercy" is generally considered a good thing, no? The Warden believes in redemption! Loghain should get a second chance, to put things right.

Or, you might think, you know what? Killing is just wrong. Whether they be heroes or your most dastardly villain, it would be just wrong to kill them. Admittedly, the Warden has killed so many by now, but I am like 96% sure most of those people just attacked you and threw themselves at your sword/daggers/arrows/staff(?). Self-defense, right? Incidentally, a Warden like this should probably spare Caladrius, but without doing the blood sacrifice for very obvious reasons.
 

doing the dark ritual?

You know what? Morrigan's been with you through thick and thin. I'm sure you can trust her, especially if you romanced her (warning: I do not actually think this). And you don't want to risk the life of your fellow Grey Warden. You have to do the Ritual to make sure they live (even if they're Loghain). This'll be easier if you're male, since you won't have to try and coerce them into sex (and if you are female, it'll probably be easier with Alistair, who is a bit less willing to die to atone for a bucketload of sins). But even if you are female-inclined, convincing them to save their own life is good too.
 

how about using blood magic to save connor instead of getting the mages to help?

What? You want to kill a child? If there's an alternative to that, we should do it. We can't get to the Circle in time/I had to let the mages be closely examined for demons in order to ensure no more innocent deaths in the future, but who is the good guy Warden to stop a mother from sacrificing herself for her own child? Her life, her choice. God bless you, Isolde!

Alternatively, greater good, you've got to eliminate the Orlesian accent. Long-term justification, will improve the lot of all Redcliffians greatly as time goes on and there isn't Isolde's voice in their ear.

[Hero]

Is it contradictory to have my character put someone like bhelen on the throne of orzammar, but also execute loghain and have Alistair be king alone?

[Nukekitten]

Bhelen doesn't seem as immediately incompetent. It's not like he lost a massive army and subsequently continued to endanger the realm to get rid of a single person as a threat....

[Hero]

Bhelen doesn't seem as immediately incompetent. It's not like he lost a massive army and subsequently continued to endanger the realm to get rid of a single person as a threat....

Hmm...good point.

[Lavaeolus]

There's more to crowning Alistair king alone than just the fate of Loghain. I daresay punishing Loghain is almost irrelevant to the hypocriticalness of who to throne, it's a different matter entirely. If you think brutal politics and self-power is okay enough to crown Bhelen, then Anora should not be that big a deal. Hell, you have to have a certain (and admittedly not invalid) interpretation to think Anora is corrupt at all, while Bhelen regularly strong-arms his opponents. Her political savvy comes at far less of a cost. With Anora on the throne, you don't really risk she's going to abolish the whole Landsmeet and become a tyrant in all but name, she'll simply "maneuver" to get them all on her side, wink wink nudge nudge.

 

Ferelden, however, is not a nation that is so mired in traditions that it is about to succumb to an endless darkspawn horde, in good time. So, there's not the same pressing need to put anyone who might even be a little "greater good".

[theskymoves]

There's more to crowning Alistair king alone than just the fate of Loghain. I daresay punishing Loghain is almost irrelevant to the hypocriticalness of who to throne, it's a different matter entirely. If you think brutal politics and self-power is okay enough to crown Bhelen, then Anora should not be that big a deal. Hell, you have to have a certain (and admittedly not invalid) interpretation to think Anora is corrupt at all, while Bhelen regularly strong-arms his opponents. Her political savvy comes at far less of a cost. With Anora on the throne, you don't really risk she's going to abolish the whole Landsmeet and become a tyrant in all but name, she'll simply "maneuver" to get them all on her side, wink wink nudge nudge.

 

Ferelden, however, is not a nation that is so mired in traditions that it is about to succumb to an endless darkspawn horde, in good time. So, there's not the same pressing need to put anyone who might even be a little "greater good".

 

From what we see in the game, Anora couldn't 'maneuver' her way out of a torn paper bag if she had a map and a guide book. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

From what we see in the game, Anora couldn't 'maneuver' her way out of a torn paper bag if she had a map and a guide book.

I tend to agree. For someone who was reputed to be such a shrewd political operator, she appeared in DAO to be nothing more than an ineffectual damsel-in-distress; I saw nothing of her alleged cunning or diplomatic skills, only a propensity to double cross people at a moment's notice. She just rolled over and allowed Loghain to take over completely with nary a word of complaint. Perhaps Anora was a good bureaucratic administrator (as Arl Eamon seems to imply) in dealing with things like taxes, contracts, and treaties, but she seemed completely out of her depth when she actually had to stand up and do something decisive in a conflict situation. Her failure to do anything substantive in the wake of Ostagar has always stood out to me as a major failure of leadership on her part, and brings her alleged competence into serious question.

[Hawkamania]

I've vastly enjoyed reading everyones responses and on my Human Noble playthrough I'm trying to justify making some of these same choices while doing it for the "greater good". The two I feel that will be the toughest is Loghain and Bhelen.

 

Essentially, I'm trying to do the opposite of what I did on my previous Elven Arcane Warrior Warden but still make those decisions with nothing but good intentions and a view of the much bigger picture (at least in my new Warden's mind). The ending I will ultimately choose will be allowing Loghain to live for the sake of redemption while having hardened Alistair marry Anora and thusly having Loghain slay the Archdemon to atone for his sins.

 

In regards to Bhelen, the epilogue you receive makes it sound as though Orzammar is doing very well on several fronts aside from the final paragraph mentioning that some claimed he was a tyrant but it also mentions others viewed him as a visionary. One of the more favorable things the Dwarfs are able to do under Bhelen's guidance that would be of interest to the Warden was his ability to permit help from the casteless to push back the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads for the first time in ages.

 

All in all, I think I'm finding ways to make some of the tougher or less favorable choices be defined and accepted as doing the "greater good" for Ferelden. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

I suppose I could just have Loghain kill the archdemon; ultimately Alistair seems to just want to see Loghain dead, so that scenario seems to be the only one that involves sparing Loghain where it's possible he'll ever "get over it" and forgive my warden

Actually I think that's the worst outcome as far as Alistair is concerned, because Loghain dies a hero, and his crimes during the Blight will be a footnote in history. Alistair doesn't think Loghain deserves the chance of redemption because his actions have hurt so many people and they deserves justice. The way Alistair sees it (remember Alistair has a fairly black & white sense of right and wrong) letting Loghain live is an insult to the memories of the dead, that's why he wants make sure that Loghain is punished for his crimes and is remembered only as a villain.

[Hero]

Actually I think that's the worst outcome as far as Alistair is concerned, because Loghain dies a hero, and his crimes during the Blight will be a footnote in history. Alistair doesn't think Loghain deserves the chance of redemption because his actions have hurt so many people and they deserves justice. The way Alistair sees it (remember Alistair has a fairly black & white sense of right and wrong) letting Loghain live is an insult to the memories of the dead, that's why he wants make sure that Loghain is punished for his crimes and is remembered only as a villain.

Would it just be best then to just have alistair duel him so he'll kill him and then I can just skip out on the decision?

[Mike3207]

Actually I think that's the worst outcome as far as Alistair is concerned, because Loghain dies a hero, and his crimes during the Blight will be a footnote in history. Alistair doesn't think Loghain deserves the chance of redemption because his actions have hurt so many people and they deserves justice. The way Alistair sees it (remember Alistair has a fairly black & white sense of right and wrong) letting Loghain live is an insult to the memories of the dead, that's why he wants make sure that Loghain is punished for his crimes and is remembered only as a villain.

No, the worst outcome as far as Alistair is concerned is the Warden letting Anora cut off his head. Alistair's not going to worry too much about outcomes after that.

 

It might be a challenge justifying that as a good guy though.

[Hero]

I had an interesting thought; what do you think a Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones style approach to playing a human noble would be like?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I had an interesting thought; what do you think a Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones style approach to playing a human noble would be like?

That was a part of how I handled my second Human Noble. One thing this extends to is putting Bhelen on the throne knowing Harrowmont's weakness, but that's not the extent of it. He set up the Landsmeet to acknowledge him as king, and kept Alistair in the party by deliberately reneging on his promise to spare Loghain knowing Anora would marry him anyway. (I intended to set up some plausible deniability by having Alistair handle the duel and kill Loghain without asking, but hit the wrong button.) He then had Alistair do the Dark Ritual so that Morrigan's child's father would be a man who'd already bargained away the child's claim to the throne.

[Darkly Tranquil]

No, the worst outcome as far as Alistair is concerned is the Warden letting Anora cut off his head. Alistair's not going to worry too much about outcomes after that.

Well obviously. Being dead would rather make his views on anything irrelevant. I didn't bother to mention that because the OP seemed inclined to make Alistair King, so I was not including the possibility of him getting executed or becoming a drunk in my calculations. What I meant was of all the scenarios where Loghain becomes a Warden and Alistair becomes King, that would Alistair's least preferred outcome because Loghain becomes a hero again. At least if the Warden kills it, Loghain is denied the glory, and he is forced to go to Orlais and eat smelly cheese.