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[Guanxii]

Batarians and Illegal A.I. Research in the Next Mass Effect

 

If reports are to be believed the Batarian hegemony is dead in the water and the Batarians are currently undergoing massive societal upheaval. I’d wager that if the Batarian caste system/slavery fall apart; Batarian mining and industrial interests will increasingly rely on automated manual labor processes as the Quarians did, only without being bound by the council’s laws governing AI research - It’s a ticking time bomb waiting to happen.

 

I believe there are two likely scenarios that would lead to the Batarians developing artificial intelligences to the point that it is inevitable:

 

1) Commercial: Under slavery there was a plentiful supply of organic laborers to work the mines and factories so the caste system was largely unconducive to the development of artificial intelligences; whereas in an economic vacuum created in the aftermath of the end of slavery these competing commercial interests are likely to begin networking intelligences/processes to maximise profits/efficiency. 

 

2) Political: Mistrust and resentment of the council races has always lead successive Batarian governments to seek to exploit a powerful monopoly which they could weaponize (as they did with the Leviathan of Dis) in the hope of restoring the glory of the Batarian race and re-establishing their perceived superiority [with the 22nd century equivalent of the Atom Bomb]. Given that the council races forbid AI weapons research it would truly be ‘one in the eye’ for the council. Any regime fearful of it’s populous might also want to use it against it.

 

While you can rightly argue that if they were to unleash a new synthetic intelligence on the galaxy it may be no more or no less hostile than any organic race I would argue that that the Geth are the synthetic representations of their creators: An intelligence programmed by a Quarian mind would be diplomatic, tech-savvy, honest and law abiding just from what we know about their creators. The Geth are a very specific case because they were created by accident and may not be representative of a synthetic race purposely created without any boundaries by a resentful & warlike people. If a subtle runtime error can be the difference between the ‘heretic’ and ‘orthodox’ Geth we may be in trouble.

 

The Morning and Reaper Wars provide an interesting context and background details which would be useful for any would-be spectre tasked under this scenario with investigating reports of a new hostile AI species in Batarian space. Should any of this come to pass in the future as either as a main plot, dlc or side-quest/story I reckon the likely outcome of these developments would be a vengeful reconstruction-era Batarian state/group creating what they believe to be an AI super-weapon which ends up enslaving them and other 'lesser' sentient host species (due to their nature/programming) just as the Reapers had warned and we must take on their mantle now once again another rouge AI species threatens the balance of galactic peace which sounds like a job for the next human spectre.

[Tonymac]

The Batarians aren't smart enough to make an AI.  Khar'shan was practically destroyed, as was most of the rest of the Hegemony.  This pretty much means the Batarians are toast.

 

 I hope that Mass Effect gets away from this AI must war with organics theory.  The whole idea was merely a side quest in ME1 for tracking down stolen credits.  Basing 2 more games off of a side quest shows you what kind of writers we were left with.  To add insult to injury, the Leviathan built an AI to interface with the organics and other AI - so it decided to save us all by killing us all in these cycles, looking for changes in the pattern.  Why did the new writers go about completely ignoring why the Reapers wanted us to be advanced enough in the first place, or why it wanted us to use the technology paths it had chosen?

 

I think that the ME franchise should just let the whole AI deal go and be done with it. 

[Farangbaa]

Why are the Batarians not smart enough for that?

 

And it's not just a sidequest, Tonymac. The ban on AI research was put in place well before the rise of the Geth because scholars in the MEU all agreed that peaceful coexistence between synthetics and organics was at best going to be a struggle, at worse it would be the end of organics.

 

This did not get enough attention in the games, I'll agree with that, but the AI-organic conflict is not something that comes out of thin air in the MEU, and it can be inferred from the Quarians' reaction to the awakening of the Geth. At that point they were doing illegal things, beforehand they weren't.

[Tonymac]

Why are the Batarians not smart enough for that?

 

And it's not just a sidequest, Tonymac. The ban on AI research was put in place well before the rise of the Geth because scholars in the MEU all agreed that peaceful coexistence between synthetics and organics was at best going to be a struggle, at worse it would be the end of organics.

 

This did not get enough attention in the games, I'll agree with that, but the AI-organic conflict is not something that comes out of thin air in the MEU, and it can be inferred from the Quarians' reaction to the awakening of the Geth. At that point they were doing illegal things, beforehand they weren't.

Well, yeah - I guess the convention was done before the Geth were made. In ME1 we know for a fact that the Geth had not been out of the Veil in 200 years.  So it was a long standing law - I get that.  They did not elaborate on it much, but it is in the ME lore.  Slightly.  It certainly needed more attention.

 

 

As for Batarians, they seem pretty low tech as a race to me - often at odds with humans, but far inferior technicallly.  I seem to remember in BDTS that the Batarians were pitted against the humans intentionally - because we had the upper hand,  While this doe not rule them out as smart enough to make an AI, it does fit into place with them and the Leviathan of Dis and all that whatnot.  Batarians are not inventive and creative like we are.  I may be biased though because I hate Batarians - kind of like how Grunt hates Turians.

 

I think that the whole AI vs Organical deal could have been really good, but what we got as a resolution to the conflict seems totally improbable.  Why would it let us decide?

[Farangbaa]

I think that the whole AI vs Organical deal could have been really good, but what we got as a resolution to the conflict seems totally improbable.  Why would it let us decide?

 

Simple; it can't operate the Crucible.

[Obadiah]

The Batarian Hegemony in the aftermath of the Reaper War is a descimated failed state. That kind of chaos can produce anything, even pacifists.

But the idea of AI research... isn't it all a question of programming and hardware? If AI can exist on any old computer, and AI has already been developed multiple times, then it is just a question of developing or acquiring s/w. How hard is that really?

[Mcfly616]

Doubt the game will take place after ME3.....but either way, the Batarians are done-zo. And it'd be a hell of a stretch to think whoever remains would have the expertise to create AI, let alone their civilization as a whole (as others have mentioned)

 

 

 

If they do make the next game after ME3, and the Catalysts warning comes to fruition (AIs being created and eventually wiping out all life without the Reapers there to prevent it), I'd like to think it comes from one of the species who could realistically create an AI.

[Mcfly616]

Simple; it can't operate the Crucible

 as well as the fact it recognizes that the very presence of Shepard at that point renders itself and it's cycles obsolete.

[Farangbaa]

The Batarian Hegemony in the aftermath of the Reaper War is a descimated failed state. That kind of chaos can produce anything, even pacifists.

But the idea of AI research... isn't it all a question of programming and hardware? If AI can exist on any old computer, and AI has already been developed multiple times, then it is just a question of developing or acquiring s/w. How hard is that really?

 

AI is relatively easy if I judge from the codex.

 

You only need adaptive code, a long (and expensive) period of learning and a quantum blue box.

 

(using the same adaptive code and learning process with a quantum blue box will not yield the same AI btw. A new personality will form every time. EDI is unique and can not be recreated after destroy)

[Quarian Master Race]

I like the terminator storyline, but screw the Batarians. They aren't smart enough. I have a better idea.

Admiral Xen builds a macguffin that enables the quarians to reinslave the geth. She launches a coup on Rannoch, becoming Der Fuher/dick-tater of all quarians and geth. She then makes good on her promise made in that email after Tali's LM in ME2, and launches a massive invasion of council space with a huge combined geth/quarian armada led by brilliant Admiral Han'Gerrel vas Neema, intent on getting revenge on the Council races for 300 years of being total dicks. The krogan see this, and wanting their own revenge on the squidheads, birds and lizards, join the quarians in an unholy alliance of brains and brawn.

Meanwhile, the Human Alliance is sitting on the sidelines looking in. The story would basically boil down to three choices. Do you help the council races maintain their dominance and galactic stability? Do you help the previously downtrodden get their vengeance? Or, do you oppourtunistically play both sides, letting them whittle down and bleed each other out until finally making your move and establishing human dominance over the rest of the galaxy as TIM originally envisioned?

[Han Shot First]

 

 She then makes good on her promise made in that email after Tali's LM in ME2, and launches a massive invasion of council space with a huge combined geth/quarian armada led by brilliant Admiral Han'Gerrel vas Neema, intent on getting revenge on the Council races for 300 years of being total dicks. 

 

Brilliant?

 

[Farangbaa]

I like the terminator storyline, but screw the Batarians. They aren't smart enough. I have a better idea.

 

And how are they not smart enough?

[RanetheViking]

Yeah, I lost it at "brilliant Han' Gerrel" as well.   

[Quarian Master Race]

Brilliant?

 

 

 

Yeah, I lost it at "brilliant Han' Gerrel" as well.   

But I was totally being serious about Xen using the same title as Hitler and describing the council races with the technical term "total dicks".

[Quarian Master Race]

And how are they not smart enough?

They still haven't discovered that slavery is an extremely inefficient labor model. How they are even industrialized, let alone space-fairing, is beyond comprehension.

[Guanxii]

A lot of you are making a point I’m not entirely sure you realize you’re making. Why do organics create synthetics or rather technology in general for that matter? As I understand it… to overcome their own technical limitations and adversity to which I would argue that the Batarians are positively blessed in this regard. Mordin once said that advancement is born out of limitations, while the catalyst makes the point that the created must surpass their creator by definition which would be pretty easy according to some on here.

 

Nobody is making the argument that Batarians are well equipped to experiment with Artificial Intelligence. Far from  it. I am merely making the observation that the consequences of this ‘inexperience’/'inadequacy' could be disastrous from the point of view of the citadel civilizations signed up to the non-proliferation treaty.

 

If I remember correctly there is even precedence for Batarian interest in AI in the first book Mass Effect: Revelation whereby Saren and Anderson destroy a factory belonging to a wealthy Batarian businessman who is himself interested in the field of study for economic reasons due to the ban in citadel space.

 

On 'Batarian culture' I think there is a clear argument to be made here for cultural relativism, and bias as even the god-damn Protheans were essentially proponents of slavery and I sure you’ve all heard anti-capitalist rhetoric & notions of ’wage slavery’. Batarians would surely be the first to call us out as a bunch of hypocrites. Much of the tales of comparative economic hardship are probably at least partially due to citadel propaganda and would be derived more so from self-imposed isolationism than purely due to their economic system. In any event there are some extremely wealthy Batarians as they've come to dominate the black market trade.

 

The protheans collectively for all their technological prowess/mastery created Artificial Intelligences that were essentially just as colonial/subalternist and ruthlessly barbaric as they were. Javik's tales of the Zha'til's exploits are utterly terrifying. If the technology of a civilization reflects the character of that civilization then the Batarians are the worst possible source of the next outbreak of synthetics.

 

Edit: Three details which might exacerbate the situation further being:

 

1)   Their secretive nature and propensity for wide-scale information blackouts.

2)   They may be too proud to ask for help until it's too late.

3)   Help may not exactly be forthcoming.

[Farangbaa]

They still haven't discovered that slavery is an extremely inefficient labor model. How they are even industrialized, let alone space-fairing, is beyond comprehension.

 

So...

 

The Protheans were less advanced and way less intelligent than the current cycle species?

 

Please, please, give me some more of this bullshit. I love it.

[dogstar12]

batarians civil war and Xen will die

[TheEternalStudent]

First, I wish to applaud the thoroughness of your post, and logical extrapolation.

 

However in ME2 we established that the mechs they used after the destruction of the Citadel were abundant, but merely VI. I don't think the Batarians would need anything more sophisticated for their slaves.

[Quarian Master Race]

So...

 

The Protheans were less advanced and way less intelligent than the current cycle species?

 

Please, please, give me some more of this bullshit. I love it.

It's not my "bullshit" opinion, it is a fact of economics. Societies that shift from agricultural to industrializtion stages abandon it as a labor model because it is only useful when the work in question is braindead simple (requiring no formal training, such as picking crops) and easy to supervise (because a slave has no incentive to work any harder than is necessary to avoid punishment, which means not at all if no one is looking).  It also stagnates technological advancement, because it responds to increases in demand via increasing the raw number of slaves doing simple tasks rather than upgrading efficiency via technological innovation.

Wage labor is a far more efficient system because the employer only has to pay slightly more than subsistence required by a slave, yet doesn't have to hire huge amounts of unnecessary enforcers to ensure the work is being done properly, and they don't have to subsidize the training of skilled laborers because the market will ensure that the laborers train themselves in order to stay competitive in relation to each other.

Or do you think humanity suddenly and coincidentally grew a conscience at the same time the industrial revolution happened?
 

[Guanxii]

First, I wish to applaud the thoroughness of your post, and logical extrapolation.

 

However in ME2 we established that the mechs they used after the destruction of the Citadel were abundant, but merely VI. I don't think the Batarians would need anything more sophisticated for their slaves.

 

Didn't both EDI and the Geth start out as 'simple VIs' though? It seems to me that we're only ever a few subtle and incremental changes away from the cat getting out of the box.

[Kabooooom]

Well, yeah - I guess the convention was done before the Geth were made. In ME1 we know for a fact that the Geth had not been out of the Veil in 200 years. So it was a long standing law - I get that. They did not elaborate on it much, but it is in the ME lore. Slightly. It certainly needed more attention.


As for Batarians, they seem pretty low tech as a race to me - often at odds with humans, but far inferior technicallly. I seem to remember in BDTS that the Batarians were pitted against the humans intentionally - because we had the upper hand, While this doe not rule them out as smart enough to make an AI, it does fit into place with them and the Leviathan of Dis and all that whatnot. Batarians are not inventive and creative like we are. I may be biased though because I hate Batarians - kind of like how Grunt hates Turians.

I think that the whole AI vs Organical deal could have been really good, but what we got as a resolution to the conflict seems totally improbable. Why would it let us decide?

Lol, this is pretty much what certain people said about certain other races in the past. It also should be pointed out that technological advancement does not equate to intellectual capacity. Biologically, the brain of modern humans has been unchanged for 200,000 years. Would you say that a caveman could not create a computer because biologically he wasn't "smart enough?".

No, of course not. Biologically, he has the capacity to build computers, and space shuttles, and much much more. But intellect is determined by what one learns, and knowledge accumulates over time and is passed down in a culture. It would be more appropriate to say, in your comparison, that the Batarians are technologically further behind humans - but that doesn't mean that they couldn't become equivalent or even surpass us in technology.

Additionally, it should be pointed out that ever since the first Mass Effect book (which predates ME1), the Batarians were funding illegal AI research. As in they were already researching AI anyways. This was further elucidated in ME3 as being related to the Leviathan of Dis, and in that book it was related to the discovery of Sovereign (the Batarians discovered Sovereign before Saren did).

So yeah, your position isn't supported by the lore.

[TheEternalStudent]

Didn't both EDI and the Geth start out as 'simple VIs' though? It seems to me that we're only ever a few subtle and incremental changes away from the cat getting out of the box.

EDI was a VI that acted...erratically before being augmented with Reaper tech, the Geth didn't become closer to AI until the Quarians started expanding them to store ancestor data (it's a bit vague) and didn't become true AI until they were augmented with Reaper code. The VI/AI gap is poorly explained in lore, but seems to require some level of intentional experimentation as a minimum.

[Kabooooom]

EDI was a VI that acted...erratically before being augmented with Reaper tech, the Geth didn't become closer to AI until the Quarians started expanding them to store ancestor data (it's a bit vague) and didn't become true AI until they were augmented with Reaper code. The VI/AI gap is poorly explained in lore, but seems to require some level of intentional experimentation as a minimum.

EDI was an AI on Luna. The Alliance was experimenting with AI, illegally. Hackett tells you that it was a "rogue VI", but this was actually a lie and becomes apparent as such later on. However, EDI didn't become as intelligent as she eventually was until she was augmented with Reaper tech and repurposed by Cerberus.

Similarly, the Geth were always AI- but a different sort. They require networking to gain sapience, thus they are a gestalt intellect, a collective consciousness instead of individuals. They are still AI, though. The Reaper code simply augmented their intellect such that every individual Geth program was now a true AI, rendering networking to gain sapience obsolete.

The story explains the difference between an AI and a VI fairly well. An AI possesses consciousness, a VI is simply a complex program that imitates sentience or sapience but does not actually achieve either. Thus, everything a VI does is determined by its programming, no consciousness and no independent thought occurs.

Each individual Geth is sentient - akin to an animal mind. They possess conscious awareness, as do animals, and thus are true AIs - consciousness produced via synthetic means. It isn't until they network together that they become sapient - a mind with a higher degree of intelligence. Even Legion is not an exception to this - Legion is actually something like 1,100 individual Geth programs networked together within its own hardware platform.

The Geth were incredibly unique, until ME3 decided to undo that uniqueness by making them desire to be more like EDI.

[Vazgen]

I would actually be quite interested in batarians playing a larger role in the next ME. But AI research doesn't sit well with me when it comes to batarians. In Mass Effect Revelation it is explicitly mentioned that the batarian who was interested in AI research was forced to contact a human expert, since no batarian was even close to that level of expertise. Seeing their weaponry in ME3 (Kishock) doesn't make me more inclined to believe that they can make more progress in AI research than the same quarians. They are also not a Council race which severely limits them both technologically and economically. There is also the slave usage, which negatively impacts the need for technology.