156 réponses à ce sujet

[Hydwn]

As others have said, blood magic and necromancy aren't the same.  In Nevarra - where Cassandra is from - Necromancy is actually practised as part of the standard funerary services, presumably under the auspices of the Chantry.  Those necromancers study life and death, create undead with the fade spirits (not necessarily demons).  They're called the Mortalitasi, and are detailed in World of Thedas.

 

I like ithe change.  Blood Magic fit badly in the lore for the PC.  In DAO it works better because the Grey Wardens have always used it, but even the characters who despise it the most (like Wynne) will at worst offer a single comment on it.  In DA2, no one comments on it even though blood magic is central to the confilict, and that doesn't make any sense at all.  

 

It was also overpowered in both DAO and DA2, to the point where most builds for mages incorporated it.  Even though its effect on gameplay was minimal, some of us wanted to play a paragon mage and never touch the stuff.  If you were playing a paragon mage, it was frustrating to figure out how to build for higher difficulties without it.  DAO had Arcane Warrior, but DA2 meant you were a healer

[Sylvius the Mad]

Given that its removal seems to be the reason we got Necromancy, I'm overjoyed. I've always liked Necromancy.

And there isn't, apparently, a strong taboo against animating the dead in Thedas.

[bluebullets]

Necromancy solution: "Mr. Inquisitor.. you just raised corpses! I frown on that! -10 relationship!"

blood mage: "Mr. Inquisitor.. you just used blood magic! I frown on that! -10 relationship!"

its the same problem, even if it isn't blood magic

[StrangeStrategy]

based on the previous games, it is blood magic. Ie. the blood magic that rose your mother.

The problems still exist with the replacement: We can't have blood magic because a templar/chantry companion would want to kill you, but they'll be fine with you raising the dead?

 

That's not the same. Raising the dead isn't just "Grr blood! Now get up corpses and obey!" Its about summoning spirits, even weak ones, into corpses or trees or other empty shells. With the veil as thin as it is, blood magic (I assume) is not required to pull a spirit (especially ones as weak as wisps) into the world and place it into a corpse. That is necromancy.

 

Velanna in DAO:A used a sort of Necromancy to animate the Sylvans, she was not a Blood mage, yet she was pulling Rage Demons out of the fade and into her service. Zathrian on the other hand did the exact same, using Blood Magic.

 

+What Quintus did was create artificial life, he used Blood Magic to make a dead body function the exact same way a normal living human would (blood pumping, heart beating, brain thinking) as evidenced by how Leandra (despite only being a head) was able to shamble over to Hawke and speak, clearly being herself.

 

In short; Necromancy is not blood magic. At least, it doesn't have to be.  
 

[bluebullets]

Given that its removal seems to be the reason we got Necromancy, I'm overjoyed. I've always liked Necromancy.

And there isn't, apparently, a strong taboo against animating the dead in Thedas.

i feel like this has ti be untrue, especially with the mage conflict and everything.. I think people would be unapproving of evewn spirit magic raising dead people

[90s Luke]

"Fewer specialization choices for the player actually allows the developers to create more content for specific specializations."

 

thus, they could have applied this logic to  blood magic. necromancy is just as "wrong" and would spike just as many reactions as blood magic

 

Necromancy involves the dead. Blood magic can involve the living and the dead, but especially the living.

 

Since the player is targeting the dead and not the living, I think many people won't care. There doesn't appear to be a strong norm against reanimation of the dead, unless those undead are attacking you of course 

[The_Prophet_of_Donk]

Most likely they will bring it back in another DA game

[themikefest]

Never used blood magic so it doesn't bother me that its not in the game

[bluebullets]

I admit that i was wrong. necromancy is spirit magic; fine.. But I don't imagine this:

"Oh.. the mages rebelled against the templars and are now gallivanting, and everybody is scared! Blood mages are everywhere! But.. oh.. you just use spirit magic to raise undead.. thats okay I love you :)"

[Hydwn]

Given that its removal seems to be the reason we got Necromancy, I'm overjoyed. I've always liked Necromancy.

And there isn't, apparently, a strong taboo against animating the dead in Thedas.

 

I agree with the first part.

 

As for the second, it depends where you are.  In DA2 and in the novels, any time the dead have been raised people are in shock.  Even Anders isn't willing to defend a mage who does that.

 

In Nevarra, though, they have a long practice of raising the dead for funerals, since they believe that unless a Fade spirit of some kind inhabits the corpse of their dead, the dead love one might not meet the Maker.  It's mainstream there.  And Nevarra isn't far from Orlais.

[Vandicus]

An animated corpse isn't the same as an ensouled corpse.

 

There isn't anything particularly dangerous about animating a corpse compared to say, animating a sword so that it floats and slashes at your enemies.

 

Whereas blood magic involves possession and the possibility of death for anyone remotely close by.

[Icy Magebane]

Although I disagree that Necromancy is frowned upon by most inhabitants of Thedas (it certainly isn't in Nevarra), the fact remains that it is legal while blood magic is punishable by death.  There is simply no comparison between the way society views the two disciplines.

[Hydwn]

I also wonder - since Nevarran necromancers are said to study life and death, can we hope for a revive spell out of that specialty...?  I mean, I know healing magic is weaker in this one, but it would be nice.

[AresKeith]

Nope, personally I'm glad

[bluebullets]

 Even Anders isn't willing to defend a mage who does that.

My point. Lol. Anders is a sociopath that blew up a church, and he doesn't even support it. But I'm supposed to accept that blood mage was undoable, but necromancy is doable, story wise?

[Hydwn]

My point. Lol. Anders is a sociopath that blew up a church, and he doesn't even support it. But I'm supposed to accept that blood mage was undoable, but necromancy is doable, story wise?

 

I'm guessing it's still going to make people nervous.  I suspect that the Nevarran mages avoid summoning demons, and probably animate corpses without blood magic.  Otherwise, the chantry would have clamped down on the practice.

 

Still, legal or not, I bet it's going to freak a lot of people out.  Outside Nevarra, it's associated with blood magic only.

[The_Prophet_of_Donk]

All I know is that this thread is making me want to be a Templar more and more..... I can't wait for my second playthroug..... I'm gonna be a monster....

[90s Luke]

My point. Lol. Anders is a sociopath that blew up a church, and he doesn't even support it. But I'm supposed to accept that blood mage was undoable, but necromancy is doable, story wise?

 

Waiting until you've actually played through the story as a necromancer might strengthen your criticism 

 

Or weaken it 

[bluebullets]

All I know is that this thread is making me want to be a Templar more and more..... I can't wait for my second playthroug..... I'm gonna be a monster....

I hope templars are better in DAI.. the spec was hugely disappointing in the first 2.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Although I disagree that Necromancy is frowned upon by most inhabitants of Thedas (it certainly isn't in Nevarra), the fact remains that it is legal while blood magic is punishable by death.  There is simply no comparison between the way society views the two disciplines.

Given that there has been no real reference to necromancy in DA prior to this other than the Nevarran example (which according the The World of Thedas is not uncontroversial within both the Chantry and Nevarran society), I'm not convinced that we can say with any certainty that necromancy is accepted in Thedosian society (might need a WoG for clarification of that). The Chantry forbids simple, non-magical things like autopsies for fear of blood magic, so it would seem counterintuitive for them to approve of any activity involving corpses in any fashion, but especially magical ones. IIRC, isn't the fear of corpse possession one of the reasons Andrastians cremate their dead (aside from emulating the death of Andraste herself)? So I think this whole "no Blood magic, but necromancy is okay" line is a bit implausible. I get why Bioware would find including it problematic from a storyline PoV, but I'm a bit baffled why they went with necromancy as a replacement, since the distinction between the two seems pretty marginal.

As for the gameplay aspect, I don't really care, I never used it on any of my Mage playthroughs anyway

[andar91]

I admit that i was wrong. necromancy is spirit magic; fine.. But I don't imagine this:

"Oh.. the mages rebelled against the templars and are now gallivanting, and everybody is scared! Blood mages are everywhere! But.. oh.. you just use spirit magic to raise undead.. thats okay I love you :)"

 

I think that no matter what magic the mages are using, people are going to distrust them at best.

 

We're talking hundreds of years of socialization into believing that magic is evil, a curse from the maker, and (this one is verifiable) an increase to the risk of possession. I.E. a mage...ANY mage...might be harboring a demon inside them and want to blow you up or control your mind and rob you of your free will.

 

So some people will probably sympathize with mages. And honestly, sure, going around and animating corpses, no matter how benign, might not be the best PR for the mages' rebellion.

[The_Prophet_of_Donk]

Waiting until you've actually played through the story as a necromancer might strengthen your criticism 

 

Or weaken it 

 

I haven't decided between KE or Necro.... I'd love to do both, but love the fact I have to choose one! I'll still go with Necro isn't Blood magic until I cut myself...

 

I hope templars are better in DAI.. the spec was hugely disappointing in the first 2.

They can do so much with Templars and I really hope they do! What that class "should" be able to do compared to what it "does" are two entirely different things unfortunately....

[Tempest329]

Nope, I'm not disappointed to see it go. I play a mage character about 75% of the time and probably only used the blood mage spec four or five times in 30+ playthroughs between both Dragon Ages.  I also wouldn't mind seeing the Templar spec gone either.

[Icy Magebane]

Given that there has been no real reference to necromancy in DA prior to this other than the Nevarran example (which according the The World of Thedas is not uncontroversial within both the Chantry and Nevarran society), I'm not convinced that we can say with any certainty that necromancy is accepted in Thedosian society (might need a WoG for clarification of that). The Chantry forbids simple, non-magical things like autopsies for fear of blood magic, so it would seem counterintuitive for them to approve of any activity involving corpses in any fashion, but especially magical ones. IIRC, isn't the fear of corpse possession one of the reasons Andrastians cremate their dead (aside from emulating the death of Andraste herself)? So I think this whole "no Blood magic, but necromancy is okay" line is a bit implausible. I get why Bioware would find including it problematic from a storyline PoV, but I'm a bit baffled why they went with necromancy as a replacement, since the distinction between the two seems pretty marginal.

As for the gameplay aspect, I don't really care, I never used it on any of my Mage playthroughs anyway

The common level of acceptance for necromancy remains to be seen, but nothing in the lore suggests that it is illegal.  Templars do not specifically hunt down necromancers, and I've never heard mention of necromancy being against the laws of the Chantry or any nation.  In addition to the various moral arguments against blood magic and its historical importance to the Tevinter Imperium, the Chantry forbids it because of the ability to control minds, the apparent link to demons, and the fact that it cannot be easily negated by the Templars.  Necromancy shares none of these characteristics, so while it may be seen as distasteful, nothing about it has caused the Chantry to ban its practice outright.

[90s Luke]

Oh yeah, about Anders....

 

He is the poster child for cognitive dissonance.

 

"Reanimating the dead and blood magic are just wrong, but allowing oneself to become an abomination and blowing people up is okay."