Or an Amrax arena type thing where you can go with a couple of bots?
Stop moving the goal posts. The SP is designed around one person controlling the party and the MP is about each person controlling one party member.
Why should anything be balanced for solo?
I've incorporated many on my mp skills into the sp. I can take on the mirror matches on insanity solo, which is way harder then anything in the mp.
I tried a Insanity run before,I only got half way through before getting wrecked.You have my respect for being able to do it solo.
We've had 2 Dragon Age games with sustainable abilities; suddenly they are absent. We've seen 2 Dragon Age games where you had access to all of your abilities in combat via radial menu, and suddenly we don't.
I don't see the actual problem here. How would MP optimizations make a party-based game worse? I can see such optimizations making it hard on players who want to solo the game, but so what? Unless there's some sort of concession to crappy console interfaces, but if that's the case I'll blame the consoles -- unless the PC side gets it right in which case I won't give a damn.
If anything, I would expect a game with good MP balance to play better in SP. Certainly DAO's all-powerful-mages would never have survived an MP balance check.
Because of the removal of certain elements that were present in the past games that make MP system work. Sustained abilities are hard to balance, so they are gone for example. Or console controllers only have a certain amount of buttons, so we have to design a gameplay system that only allows for 8 hotkey skills available for use instead of having access to all of your abilities (because you can't pause in MP; it would ruin the gameplay there).
Hmm, I am glad sustainable abilities are gone. They were cumbersome and at their worst they made you look like a disco ball. I definitely won't miss them.
And yeah, on the topic of modding, there is no way in hell DAI will ever support it. Mutliplayer is monetized, which means modding is going to be a liability for them. Anyone who can just dig up files or introduce new files are going to be able to circumvent the entire economy of the game, which I'm sure EA would object to.
If anything, singleplayer mods, like texture mods, will probably be abundant and completely unregulated, but MP mods will likely be prohibited.
To ensure I haven't misunderstood you.
You've got one point where you're saying if there was mod support in the form of a toolkit for SP, you wouldn't be bothered by the existence of MP.
In another you're saying you wouldn't be bothered(or at least less bothered), if MP were soloable in a practical fashion.
Assuming I've understood you correctly, it is very likely that even if the latter isn't true out of box, it should be fairly easy to modify enemy or player stats to make it so, and playing entirely solo would mean you'd basically never be caught.
The existence of mod support is pretty much a no from the devs.
To clarify:
Mod support would make MP acceptable. As anything locked by MP might get a workaround by players. As well as a greater influx of SP content (lets face it, MP is likely getting the lion's share of any DLC)
Also yes, if there was a solo mode for any MP functions that would also be acceptable, as I could then be absolutely certain that no content would be blocked by MP.
I'm not sure where you're getting the rest from. I have no illusions that either is going to be available. Certainly not both!
I'm still looking for CRPGs to emulate tabletop gameplay. That's a lot harder to do when the game mechanics have to support real-time multiplayer.
If MP were turn-based, then we'd probably be fine.
Why stop there? Let's go all the way back to AD&D. Everyone pre-plots his move, and then the computer throws initiative dice and executes.
I tried a Insanity run before,I only got half way through before getting wrecked.You have my respect for being able to do it solo.
And I got that good because of the mp.
I hope this is the case. The only concessions I've seen so far seem to be coming from the SP side. We've had 2 Dragon Age games with sustainable abilities; suddenly they are absent. We've seen 2 Dragon Age games where you had access to all of your abilities in combat via radial menu, and suddenly we don't. I do believe Bioware when they say they've learned from ME3 MP experience, in that the story of SP will not be affected in any way. So it's not as bad as that was with the EMS meter, but still, I hope you can understand my concerns and many others' as well.
Are there no sustainable abilities? And why do you think it is down to multiplayer? Bare in mind there are quite a few sustainable abilities in ME3 multiplayer.
I don't see the actual problem here. How would MP optimizations make a party-based game worse? I can see such optimizations making it hard on players who want to solo the game, but so what? Unless there's some sort of concession to crappy console interfaces, but if that's the case I'll blame the consoles -- unless the PC side gets it right in which case I won't give a damn.
If anything, I would expect a game with good MP balance to play better in SP. Certainly DAO's all-powerful-mages would never have survived an MP balance check.
Class-balance has no place in a singleplayer game. If the lore supports overpowered mages (and in DA, it does), then the mages should be overpowered.
Nerfing mages for the purposes of balance harms the game's setting, and thus harms the game.
Why stop there? Let's go all the way back to AD&D. Everyone pre-plots his move, and then the computer throws initiative dice and executes.
AD&D is not the pinnacle of tabletop gaming.
Why stop there? Let's go all the way back to AD&D. Everyone pre-plots his move, and then the computer throws initiative dice and executes.
Hmm, I am glad sustainable abilities are gone. They were cumbersome and at their worst they made you look like a disco ball. I definitely won't miss them.
And yeah, on the topic of modding, there is no way in hell DAI will ever support it. Mutliplayer is monetized, which means modding is going to be a liability for them. Anyone who can just dig up files or introduce new files are going to be able to circumvent the entire economy of the game, which I'm sure EA would object to.
If anything, singleplayer mods, like texture mods, will probably be abundant and completely unregulated, but MP mods will likely be prohibited.
Wait....what? I loved them. In DA2 they show only in battle and it save recast time.
Because of the removal of certain elements that were present in the past games that make MP system work. Sustained abilities are hard to balance, so they are gone for example. Or console controllers only have a certain amount of buttons, so we have to design a gameplay system that only allows for 8 hotkey skills available for use instead of having access to all of your abilities (because you can't pause in MP; it would ruin the gameplay there).
What does MP have to do with not including sustainable abilities? I cannot think of a reason why they would be incompatible with MP (why would they be any harder to balance than active/passive abilities?). Also, this particular design decision isn't necessarily a bad thing (unless for some reason you really love the idea of sustainable abilities); the presence of sustainables is not necessary for good gameplay. Just because something was dropped doesn't mean the game will be worse off.
Also the lack of a radial menu isn't necessarily due to MP. It could be an unrelated design decision.
Those two things may actually be connected, and unrelated to MP. If BioWare made the design decision to limit active abilities to 8 in the effort to introduce opportunity costs and builds, then suddenly having a unique talent or ability that is simply a sustained mode seems kinda crappy; you'd have to devote a button to something you press once and then don't press again for awhile?
Maybe active abilities have after-effects that function as auras, or maybe (as we saw with the warrior parry stance in the Gamescom demo) it's less a "sustained" ability and more of a buff that wears off. Since we're getting an entire mage specialization that purports to specialize in buffing (Knight Enchanter) I find this latter reworking of sustained abilities to be the most likely case.
Look, I hope Bioware's design decisions had little to nothing to do with keeping multiplayer in mind. But the reality of game development is they did. The gameplay is identical in MP and SP. Opportunity cost is a fine rationalization, but there was already an opportunity cost for sustainables in the last 2 games: mana pool reserved and/or fatigue. Do you honestly think that MP wasn't the reason these were removed? And if they weren't limited to 8 hotkey bindings for real-time console controller MP accommodation, do you really think they would have limited you to 8 usable abilities? Yes, nothing can be definitively proven, but let's consider all of the evidence and make some logical deductions.
Stop moving the goal posts. The SP is designed around one person controlling the party and the MP is about each person controlling one party member.
Why should anything be balanced for solo?
Because the focus of DAI is supposedly on the single player? Seriously, Citadel had the Armax Arena which, if something like that was available for solo "Galaxy at War" play, might have at least reduced early complaints of MP being required.
In my case, all I'm saying is "balanced for the number of players involved" I'm sure two and three person teams would appreciate a sliding scale too.
You either need an AI governing the game or a living person with access to a flexible system of controls.
I have never understood this argument. I want a CRPG to mimic a tabletop game mechanically, because a tabletop game was effectively a world simulation. The same rules governed every entity.
And I don't want a living person involved, because that would be multiplayer. The thing that's wrong with tabletop gaming is that it requires more than one player.
To clarify:
Mod support would make MP acceptable. As anything locked by MP might get a workaround by players. As well as a greater influx of SP content (lets face it, MP is likely getting the lion's share of any DLC)
Also yes, if there was a solo mode for any MP functions that would also be acceptable, as I could then be absolutely certain that no content would be blocked by MP.
I'm not sure where you're getting the rest from. I have no illusions that either is going to be available. Certainly not both!
How practical it is to solo at launch will be in part up to player skill(I almost certainly expect it to be so unless they've dramatically revised upwards their opinion of how difficult things should be).
Unless they've decided to use dedicated servers to host the MP game, it should only take you a few quick edits to change the stats of enemies to manageable levels should you desire to play any MP solo.
And I got that good because of the mp.
It seems we both learned out skills in reverse ways.I can clear out a wave almost single handedly even on Gold or Platinum yet Insanity for some reason kicks my butt.
Wait....what? I loved them. In DA2 they show only in battle and it save recast time.
Disco ball was more a reference to DAO. I did so many playthroughs of DAO min/maxed with as many sustained abilities running at the same time off my mana pool that I just got really sick of it. Personally though, I am a minimalist and I generally dislike any flashy animations, so that might give you an idea why I would be happy to see them gone.
Because of the removal of certain elements that were present in the past games that make MP system work. Sustained abilities are hard to balance, so they are gone for example. Or console controllers only have a certain amount of buttons, so we have to design a gameplay system that only allows for 8 hotkey skills available for use instead of having access to all of your abilities (because you can't pause in MP; it would ruin the gameplay there).
If sustained abilities are hard to balance, they should be gone anyway.
As for the other point ... like I said, I'd blame consoles. In practice, I'm not at all sure this will bother me.
Jeez, I'm glad someone besides me remembers point 1
You will never see that kind of multiplayer again. Not from EA. Can' t monetize it.
Class-balance has no place in a singleplayer game. If the lore supports overpowered mages (and in DA, it does), then the mages hsould be overpowered.
Nerfing mages for the purposes of balance harms the game's setting, and thus harms the game.
Completely disagree. Every class should be able to play the game with a good level of challenge and lack of tedium. An example of tedium would be the Arishok fight in DA2 as a Warrior, that was badly unbalanced. It isn't as important as multiplayer, much less important than PvP, but it still very much has a place.
I have never understood this argument. I want a CRPG to mimic a tabletop game mechanically, because a tabletop game was effectively a world simulation. The same rules governed every entity.
And I don't want a living person involved, because that would be multiplayer. The thing that's wrong with tabletop gaming is that it requires more than one player.
You mean using a ruleset or the effective simulation aspect? A ruleset can simply be copy/pasted and then operate like a module, linear with a specific system for determining outcomes.
If you want something as freeform as tabletop can be, you need immense computing power, equal to or greater than a human being.
Class-balance has no place in a singleplayer game. If the lore supports overpowered mages (and in DA, it does), then the mages hsould be overpowered.
Nerfing mages for the purposes of balance harms the game's setting, and thus harms the game.
This is a personal taste issue. I'll qualify my earlier statement: MP would improve class-balance. Whether this is good, irrelevant, or bad is a separate question.
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