2661 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

If sustained abilities are hard to balance, they should be gone anyway.

 

As for the other point ... like I said, I'd blame consoles. In practice, I'm not at all sure this will bother me.

 

Yes blame consoles, but that's only half of the explanation.  Consoles compensated for this in the past with the pause option and radial menu, which allowed access to all the abilities.  You can't pause in MP, thus you need every possible ability mapped to a hotkey.  Thus the culprit is the combination of consoles + MP, not just consoles by itself.

[Hans Tiger]

This is fantastic news!!

i really liked ME3 MP

[Joseph Warrick]

What's this about no sustained modes? In the demos we can see two or three white wisps flying around our peeps. I assumed that was some sort of sustained magical buff like Heroic Aura because they wouldn't go away. Maybe it's like in TES? An activated spell that gives companions a buff for 30/45/60 seconds.

[cjones91]

Completely disagree. Every class should be able to play the game with a good level of challenge and lack of tedium. An example of tedium would be the Arishok fight in DA2 as a Warrior, that was badly unbalanced. It isn't as important as multiplayer, much less important than PvP, but it still very much has a place.

Mages are supposed to be very powerful,balancing them runs counter to that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This is a personal taste issue. I'll qualify my earlier statement: MP would improve class-balance. Whether this is good, irrelevant, or bad is a separate question.

Regardless of good vs. bad, it's an example of MP design affecting SP design.

 

And that's something I thought we were going to avoid.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You mean using a ruleset or the effective simulation aspect? A ruleset can simply be copy/pasted and then operate like a module, linear with a specific system for determining outcomes.

 

If you want something as freeform as tabletop can be, you need immense computing power, equal to or greater than a human being.

Only if you insist that the world be reactive in some sort of predictable way, something else I've never understood.  Roleplaying is about the decisions you make on behalf of your character, not seeing how the world reacts to those decisions.

[NextArishok]

What's this about no sustained modes? In the demos we can see two or three white wisps flying around our peeps. I assumed that was some sort of sustained magical buff like Heroic Aura because they wouldn't go away. Maybe it's like in TES? An activated spell that gives companions a buff for 30/45/60 seconds.

Yeah I missed this too.  I need my Indomitable!

[Vandicus]

Only if you insist that the world be reactive in some sort of predictable way, something else I've never understood.  Roleplaying is about the decisions you make on behalf of your character, not seeing how the world reacts to those decisions.

Not sure what in particular you're aiming for then.

 

You mentioned a common ruleset, but I don't think you meant that you had a particular preference for a no longer in use ruleset, but that there was something in particular you wanted to carry over regarding how those kinds of worlds operated.

 

Could you specify what you feel the average CRPG is missing that existed in tabletop(if its not realistic freeform play).

[In Exile]

We'll see if MP damaged SP when we see the harm to the PC gameplay. DAO was designed for PC. DA2 - camera failure aside - copied the interface.

If DAI carried forward controller related limits, we'll know that the demand for MP design overrode any PC UI for SP.

[CronoDragoon]

Look, I hope Bioware's design decisions had little to nothing to do with keeping multiplayer in mind.  But the reality of game development is they did.  The gameplay is identical in MP and SP.

Tell that to tactical camera.
 

Opportunity cost is a fine rationalization, but there was already an opportunity cost for sustainables in the last 2 games: mana pool reserved and/or fatigue.  Do you honestly think that MP wasn't the reason these were removed?  And if they weren't limited to 8 hotkey bindings for real-time console controller MP accommodation, do you really think they would have limited you to 8 usable abilities?  Yes, nothing can be definitively proven, but let's consider all of the evidence and make some logical deductions.

I just gave you logical deductions beginning with the premise that the 8 ability limit was not due to MP but was a part of BioWare's overall strategy with Inquisition to force the player to plan ahead for encounters. This might include an initiative to have the player think more carefully about picking their talents, which is what an ability limit does.

The claim that an ability limit waters down the game sounds dubious to me, and is probably based on gamers being resistant to change more than any meaningful loss of depth or strategy. If your mage needs to unslot a CC spell because he needs fire damage for this zone, then you might want to consider building a few CC abilities into one of your rogues. That is strategy.

Of course, it's possible that the changes actually were due to MP, but I find this claim to be based more on an inability to prove otherwise, rather than any reasoning from precedent or logic. Having said that, if BioWare does clarify in the future that it was because of MP, I won't be shocked, and I also won't feel that anything of real value was sacrificed.
 

Regardless of good vs. bad, it's an example of MP design affecting SP design.

And that's something I thought we were going to avoid.

The class balance already happened in DA2, so it's unrelated to MP.

[Biotic Sage]

What's this about no sustained modes? In the demos we can see two or three white wisps flying around our peeps. I assumed that was some sort of sustained magical buff like Heroic Aura because they wouldn't go away. Maybe it's like in TES? An activated spell that gives companions a buff for 30/45/60 seconds.

 

Yeah we've seen activated abilities that give temporary buffs, plenty of those.  However, there are no sustainable abilities that reserve mana/stamina anymore.  And with only 8 abilities to choose from now, having one of those buff abilities takes up one of your 8 slots.

[Lexxbomb]

1.BW started out make sp with co-op mp. The even made a 2 games centered around mp.

2. MP is not a cancer. Heck, rpgs started out as mp games only.

3.MP is also optional, you don't need to play it.

Yes I know about point 1. But they were originally LAN based and as I said Multiplayer games should be their own games.

2. Yes it is and No RPGs were not originally MP... you really haven't been playing RPG since the early 80's then.

3. If the Multiplayer games have a story and Lore not experienced in the Single Player Campaign then that is a big issue to people who live in area with horrible internet access. When you combine this with the crap going on with pre-orders (like no collector editions) in Europe it is easy to see this as EA only cares about American gamers.

 

mind you this is my own opinion

[Maria Caliban]

AD&D isn't "all the way back". Diplomacy is. Instead of that newfangled initiative roll nonsense, just execute all moves simultaneously.

Diplomacy isn't cooperative like most role-playing though.

I wouldn't be surprised if Diplomacy ended more friendships than not.

[Vandicus]

Yes I know about point 1. But they were originally LAN based and as I said Multiplayer games should be their own games.

2. Yes it is and No RPGs were not originally MP... you really haven't been playing RPG since the early 80's then.

3. If the Multiplayer games have a story and Lore not experienced in the Single Player Campaign then that is a big issue to people who live in area with horrible internet access. When you combine this with the crap going on with pre-orders (like no collector editions) in Europe it is easy to see this as EA only cares about American gamers.

Regarding point 2, I believe he is referring to tabletop rpgs.

[leaguer of one]

You will never see that kind of multiplayer again. Not from EA.  Can' t monetize it.

If bw ever tried to make a sp with co-op in the main campaign and lynch mob would form from with the way people are reacting to the DAMP news.

[Aimi]

Diplomacy isn't cooperative like most role-playing though.

I wouldn't be surprised if Diplomacy ended more friendships than not.

Yeah, Gygax made D&D for all the carebears who couldn't handle a proper stab. "But you were supposed to support me into Trieste!"

[Biotic Sage]

Tell that to tactical camera.


I just gave you logical deductions beginning with the premise that the 8 ability limit was not due to MP but was a part of BioWare's overall strategy with Inquisition to force the player to plan ahead for encounters. This might include an initiate to have the player think more carefully about picking their talents, which is what an ability limit does.

The claim that an ability limit waters down the game sounds dubious to me, and is probably based on gamers being resistant to change more than any meaningful loss of depth or strategy. If your mage needs to unslot a CC spell because he needs fire damage for this zone, then you might want to consider building a few CC abilities into one of your rogues. That is strategy.

Of course, it's possible that the changes were due to MP, but I find this claim to be based more on an inability to prove otherwise, rather than any reasoning from precedent or logic. If BioWare does clarify in the future that it was because of MP, I won't be shocked, and I also won't feel that anything of real value was sacrificed.

 

You really want to get into a semantic discussion?  Because claiming that having a tactical camera option is "different gameplay" is going to accomplish just that.  Same with the ability to pause combat.  You know what I meant, so let's move on.

 

As for your second point, I could argue that you have the inability to prove that the changes weren't due to accommodating MP.  Why do I have the burden of proof?  These features were present in both previous DA titles, and suddenly they aren't.  MP wasn't present in both previous DA titles, and suddenly it is.  MP = no pausing so hotkeys suddenly become ultra-important, and consoles have a limited number of hotkeys.  I am not making any leaps here by asserting that they have to work around these facts when developing the gameplay system (which is the same for MP and SP).  My deductions are just that: deductions.  Occam's razor.  Your assertions require far more leaps.  I'll stick with mine if it pleases you.

[Gloomfrost]

More Importantly

 

I only hope that Inquisition's MP will be supported for more than just one year. I love ME3's MP but the amount of obvious bugs still lingering in that game mode is just a testament to what happens when you leave your game behind in the dust (well, its multi-player portion anyway). I do feel that the Inquisition team will be supporting the game for "some time" after release. How much time... that's of course impossible to say but I'm hoping that it will last longer than the one meager year that ME3's MP team disposed of to support it (they did a good job during that time, I'm not saying that nothing happened during that year, but I'm saying that a couple of extra months or another year beyond that point would have tremendously helped).

 

 

 

The above example demonstrates my less than enthusiastic reception of DAMP.

 

To me good RPG's are all about Legacy. They are games that we the players love to enjoy again and again. RPGers are in for the long haul, not the newest flash in the pan current rages. I continue to play games that matter to me.

 

The Baldurs Gate Series, Icewindale, the TES Series. These games have a HUGE legacy to them.

 

We  may want to play a game YEARS after it is out of fashion.

 

Will we be able to do this with DAMP? 1 year in, how about 5 years in, heck how about 10 years on?

 

Think about firing up DAI 5 years in the future, do you think that Multi-player button will still work? Or will it be a sad testament to the current lack of foresight.

 

Let the DAMPers enjoy this obviously transient thrill they are experiencing right now, us RPGers will lovingly embrace the game long after they have moved on.

 

For those of us that care about the future of RPG gaming and the legacy of the games, Thank God for good ol' Single Player.

[Wolfen09]

Yes I know about point 1. But they were originally LAN based and as I said Multiplayer games should be their own games.

2. Yes it is and No RPGs were not originally MP... you really haven't been playing RPG since the early 80's then.

3. If the Multiplayer games have a story and Lore not experienced in the Single Player Campaign then that is a big issue to people who live in area with horrible internet access. When you combine this with the crap going on with pre-orders (like no collector editions) in Europe it is easy to see this as EA only cares about American gamers.

 

mind you this is my own opinion

 

Well, Europe got the whole knights and stuff in real life.  Just means the americans get it in virtual land as compensation

[NedPepper]

I don't have a strong opinion on MP either way.  If it's not going to affect the SP, then I have nothing to worry about.  ME Multiplayer was surprisingly fun....when you managed to find a group of people who weren't complete and utter ****s.  Which was about a 50/50 shot.  

For the people complaining...why?  You're mad that an RPG added a co-op dungeon crawler, a kind of game that has been around since the dawn of videogames?  Nobody here played Gauntlet?  Diablo?  It could be fun. It could be a waste of time.  But if it doesn't affect the single player, then there is no issue here.

My only concern is that that next gen has caused a schism among all of my friends.  I just bought an X-Box One.  Some of my friends will be playing Dragon Age on the 360, the PS4, or PC.  So doing an old school Gauntlet MP with my old friends isn't likely.  As for playing with strangers, the elitist jerk mentality that springs out of MP and being screamed at over your earpiece because you're not doing what one angry dude wants you do is not exactly a fun way to spend my time.  So, not being able to play with my friends will probably leave me ignoring the MP.  But, again, this is almost a non-factor.  

[leaguer of one]

Yes I know about point 1. But they were originally LAN based and as I said Multiplayer games should be their own games.

2. Yes it is and No RPGs were not originally MP... you really haven't been playing RPG since the early 80's then.

3. If the Multiplayer games have a story and Lore not experienced in the Single Player Campaign then that is a big issue to people who live in area with horrible internet access. When you combine this with the crap going on with pre-orders (like no collector editions) in Europe it is easy to see this as EA only cares about American gamers.

 

mind you this is my own opinion

1, Matter not if they are lan based or not. You still got together and played it with others,

2. Yes, rps started as multiplayer games. RPG started out as table top games. There is no way they could not start out as sp only. And rpg's started from way earlier then the 80's.

3.It doesn't. The story is as bare bone as me3 mp. Not an issue.

 

And the logic of the opinion is questionable.

[ghostzodd]

I don't have a strong opinion on MP either way.  If it's not going to affect the SP, then I have nothing to worry about.  ME Multiplayer was surprisingly fun....when you managed to find a group of people who weren't complete and utter ****s.  Which was about a 50/50 shot.  

For the people complaining...why?  You're mad that an RPG added a co-op dungeon crawler, a kind of game that has been around since the dawn of videogames?  Nobody here played Gauntlet?  Diablo?  It could be fun. It could be a waste of time.  But if it doesn't affect the single player, then there is no issue here.

My only concern is that that next gen has caused a schism among all of my friends.  I just bought an X-Box One.  Some of my friends will be playing Dragon Age on the 360, the PS4, or PC.  So doing an old school Gauntlet MP with my old friends isn't likely.  As for playing with strangers, the elitist jerk mentality that springs out of MP and being screamed at over your earpiece because you're not doing what one angry dude wants you do is not exactly a fun way to spend my time.  So, not being able to play with my friends will probably leave me ignoring the MP.  But, again, this is almost a non-factor.  

 

 

I am just peeved that Bioware was clowning acting like that multiplayer was a maybe thing, they damn well knew it was gonna be in the game from the get go at least 2 years ago, MP look interesting though

[leaguer of one]

The above example demonstrates my less than enthusiastic reception of DAMP.

 

To me good RPG's are all about Legacy. They are games that we the players love to enjoy again and again. RPGers are in for the long haul, not the newest flash in the pan current rages. I continue to play games that matter to me.

 

The Baldurs Gate Series, Icewindale, the TES Series. These games have a HUGE legacy to them.

 

We  may want to play a game YEARS after it is out of fashion.

 

Will we be able to do this with DAMP? 1 year in, how about 5 years in, heck how about 10 years on?

 

Think about firing up DAI 5 years in the future, do you think that Multi-player button will still work? Or will it be a sad testament to the current lack of foresight.

 

Let the DAMPers enjoy this obviously transient thrill they are experiencing right now, us RPGers will lovingly embrace the game long after they have moved on.

 

For those of us that care about the future of RPG gaming and the legacy of the games, Thank God for good ol' Single Player.

As  a constellation many people are still play me3 mp. So bw does know how to make a worth wild mp.

[Wolfen09]

I am just peeved that Bioware was clowning acting like that multiplayer was a maybe thing, they damn well knew it was gonna be in the game from the get go at least 2 years ago, MP look interesting though

 

you know they completely forgot until some intern brought it up, and they had to push release back a month just in case they didnt make it in time.... damn interns always reminding us of past stuff we forgot

[Indomito]

Hi everyone, my first post here. I´m really glad with this announcement, I like very much the ME3 multiplayer, so I hope this is even better.

 

I already ordered a copy of the Digital Deluxe edition, not just for the MP, i was going to do it for the single player anyway.

Because I like Bioware´s games.

 

Regards

 

 

English is not my native speaking language, feel free to correct me if i type anything in a wrong way.