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[Darkly Tranquil]

World of Thedas, page 43:
 
"At the Battle of Valarian Fields, the elven slave Shartan takes Maferath's side and leads other elves in the fight against their Tevinter opressors. He later converts and is made a disciple, only to have his writings suppressed following the Exalted March of the Dales."
 
Sorry, but it's pretty clear in WoT that Shartan was something more than just a "close advisor" and that he converted to Andrastianism. If he wanted other elves to do so it's something that hasn't been stated so far.

I stand corrected on that point. I didn't see the timeline at the bottom of the page. The wiki page is also lack that bit of info too, then. Even so, Shartan's personal beliefs should not dictate what faith the rest of the elves choose to follow.

[Lulupab]

You don't take lyrium until final vows. Also, it takes years of use for lyrium to affect you. Also, they are fully aware of the sacrifice they are making. The argument that the chantry takes advantage of them is like arguing that professional football players are taken advantage of because they knowingly play a sport that can leave them severely injured.

One of most unrelated and pointless examples ever made in this forum.

You DO NOT get addicted to professional sports and its NOT GUARANTEED to harm you like Lyrium. If you paid attention to codex and templars in front of Denerim chantry you'd realize that even blue lyrium will start to harm the mind eventually, starting from short memory loss and leading to insanity.

[Steelcan]

whats going on in here.....

[Icy Magebane]

Leaving the mental and psychological damage aside addicts cannot be trusted and will follow whoever provides their fix. that the chantry has never been challenged before doesn't mean it cannot be exploited. who provide the fix for the templars now? the venatori perhaps? if so it shows how easy it is to bend a people with an addiction can be twisted and how you can completely can make them the opposite what they once where.

Sorry, but former Templars joining forces with a Tevinter mage faction in order to score lyrium sounds too farfetched to me.  Like I said, if Templars were so easily corrupted, the system would not have stood for as long as it did.  There must have been temptations along the way, but the order withstood them.  How they deal with the aftermath of this recent mage rebellion remains to be seen, but you cannot call into question the character of the Templars as a whole based on a situation they've never faced.  A hypothetical outcome involving Templars bending under the pressure of addiction isn't proof.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well there is that quest about Andraste's ashes where we get to meet the so called spirit of him and he says (if you answer his question correctly) Andraste was betrayed and so were they.

 

You do realize that he is likely inferring to the disciples who died alongside Andraste in Tevinter correct?

 

She was burned at the stake along with her war leaders.

 

 

What Shartan personally believed is ultimately immaterial.

 

So you say now after you have been provided sources proving your own inaccurate belief that there was nothing linking him to the Maker.

 

 

 The Elves were given the Dales to be an Elven homeland where they could rule themselves and live according to their own customs

 

That's your assumption, And that's likely what it devolved into pitiably enough.

 

But it gives me comfort to think that the promise was genuine and the elves turned against those who gave them freedom.

[LobselVith8]

I stand corrected on that point. I didn't see the timeline at the bottom of the page. The wiki page is also lack that bit of info too, then. Even so, Shartan's personal beliefs should not dictate what faith the rest of the elves choose to follow.

 

It's difficult to ascertain whether Shartan genuinely converted or whether it was a necessity to become a member of Andraste's inner circle (since information on Shartan is quite scarce, unfortunately), but Shartan aside, the elven historical account reads that Andraste wasn't a religious figure to the elves during the war against the Imperium (or that the people followed her faith), but rather a secular war leader they aligned with: "You will hear tales of the woman Andraste. The shemlen name her prophet, bride of their Maker. But we knew her as a war leader, one who, like us, had been a slave and dreamed of liberation. We joined her rebellion against the Imperium, and our heroes died beside her, unmourned, in Tevinter bonfires."

[Master Warder Z_]

whats going on in here.....

 

Eh

 

Nothing out of place for BSN.

[Lulupab]

Sorry, but former Templars joining forces with a Tevinter mage faction in order to score lyrium sounds too farfetched to me.  Like I said, if Templars were so easily corrupted, the system would not have stood for as long as it did.  There must have been temptations along the way, but the order withstood them.  How they deal with the aftermath of this recent mage rebellion remains to be seen, but you cannot call into question the character of the Templars as a whole based on a situation they've never faced.  A hypothetical situation involving Templars bending under the pressure of addiction isn't proof.

All magic comes from the fade, even blood magic came from demons first. Templars could not just learn how to use Lyrium that professionally out of the blue. Its VERY ironic that some demons have the exact same abilities as Templars (you can look it up). Given that a noble group like grey wardens exists with the help of blood magic I wouldn't be surprised at all that templar skills originates from demons. The red Lyrium situation points towards this even more as red Lyrium is simply more potent version of Lyrium.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

One of most unrelated and pointless examples ever made in this forum.

You DO NOT get addicted to professional sports and its NOT GUARANTEED to harm you like Lyrium. If you paid attention to codex and templars in front of Denerim chantry you'd realize that even blue lyrium will start to harm the mind eventually, starting from short memory loss and leading to insanity.

 

You're right, you just get to bash your head in for months on end, sprain and tear your muscles, and be forced to "walk it off" or risk not getting a paycheck for a whole year later. 

 

Then comes the pills to make the concussion based neurological problems and the constant pain from the muscular wear and tear lessened, of which almost all of them are addictive.

 

But you know, its for the game and all. So I guess that makes it alright.

[Icy Magebane]

All magic comes from the fade, even blood magic came from demons first. Templars could not just learn how to use Lyrium that professionally out of the blue. Its VERY ironic that some demons have the exact same abilities as Templars (you can look it up). Given that a noble group like grey wardens exists with the help of blood magic I wouldn't be surprised at all that templar skills originates from demons. The red Lyrium situation points towards this even more as red Lyrium is simply more potent version of Lyrium.

... that's a lot of speculation for one paragraph.  What about the various anti-magic abilities that mages can learn in DA:O?  None of those are based on blood magic, they are merely another form of energy control and disrupting interaction with the Fade.  I have no doubt that the Templar's abilities originated from magic, but there is no evidence of a link to blood magic.  Assuming that it might be the case does not make it so, especially when a more logical alternative theory is completely ignored.

 

Also, red lyrium has nothing to do with Templars or their abilities... Bartrand was not a Templar but was corrupted and empowered beyond dwarven norms by red lyrium.

[Master Warder Z_]

You're right, you just get to bash your head in for months on end, sprain and tear your muscles, and be forced to "walk it off" or risk not getting a paycheck for a whole year later. 

 

Then comes the pills to make the concussion based neurological problems and the constant pain from the muscular wear and tear lessened, of which almost all of them are addictive.

 

But you know, its for the game and all. So I guess that makes it alright.

 

...We should go bass fishing some time.

[Lulupab]

You're right, you just get to bash your head in for months on end, sprain and tear your muscles, and be forced to "walk it off" or risk not getting a paycheck for a whole year later. 
 
Then comes the pills to make the concussion based neurological problems and the constant pain from the muscular wear and tear lessened, of which almost all of them are addictive.
 
But you know, its for the game and all. So I guess that makes it alright.

Yes its a game and you can quit anytime. if you're good a few matches will set you for life. But that's beside the point. You are not pets of a zealous religion that just loves to have control over everything. People don't hate religion in general, they hate religions that meddle in politics and try to rule (which is sadly most religions). The only "good ending" I see for chantry is existing in a secular fashion. People go there and pray etc... but it has no say in politics like current situation of Christianity in west, it used to be like chantry and held full power, but not anymore. Its officially and completely separated from state. (more or less)

[Spicen]

Eh

Nothing out of place for BSN.

The wonders if BSN never ceases to amaze any of us.

[Steelcan]

Yes its a game and you can quit anytime. if you're good a few matches will set you for life. But that's beside the point. You are not pets of a zealous religion that just loves to have control over everything. People don't hate religion in general, they hate religions that meddle in politics and try to rule (which is sadly most religions). The only "good ending" I see for chantry is existing in a secular fashion. People go there and pray etc... but it has no say in politics like current situation of Christianity in west, it used to be like chantry and held full power, but not anymore. Its officially and completely separated from state. (more or less)

good gods where to begin

[DKJaigen]

Sorry, but former Templars joining forces with a Tevinter mage faction in order to score lyrium sounds too farfetched to me.  Like I said, if Templars were so easily corrupted, the system would not have stood for as long as it did.  There must have been temptations along the way, but the order withstood them.  How they deal with the aftermath of this recent mage rebellion remains to be seen, but you cannot call into question the character of the Templars as a whole based on a situation they've never faced.  A hypothetical outcome involving Templars bending under the pressure of addiction isn't proof.

 

You see templars turning a blind eye in da 1 and 2 and they where still being given their fix by the chantry at this point further corruption is inevitable and the outcome is not hypothetical the red templars exist and seeks to prevent the inquisition from closing fade portals.

[Mistic]

But it gives me comfort to think that the promise was genuine and the elves turned against those who gave them freedom.

 

Not really. The same we can't blame Andraste, Maferath and others for the actions of Orlais, we can't praise Orlais for the actions of Andraste, Maferath and company. The elves weren't betrayed the same way the elves didn't betray anyone. If it's about the darkspawn, they couldn't even sign the Warden treaties at the time because they were still slaves and nothings says they had an alliance with Orlais, so that makes them jerks, not traitors (given DA:O, it's pretty clear that the Dalish learnt at least from that mistake).

 

But yeah, that Maferath and company fulfilled their word is comforting. People in Thedas can reach to agreements and fulfill them. There's hope.

[Master Warder Z_]

good gods where to begin

 

The Answer to that question is at the bottom of a 12 ounce bottle i believe.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Yes its a game and you can quit anytime. if you're good a few matches will set you for life. But that's beside the point. You are not pets of a zealous religion that just loves to have control over everything. People don't hate religion in general, they hate religions that meddle in politics and try to rule (which is sadly most religions). The only "good ending" I see for chantry is existing in a secular fashion. People go there and pray etc... but it has no say in politics like current situation of Christianity in west, it used to be like chantry and held full power, but not anymore. Its officially and completely separated from state. (more or less)

 

There's something called a contract, maybe you heard of it. And set for life? What kind of fantasy world are you living in? The amount of taxes you pay as a professional athlete most times balances out a lot of what you make. Beyond that is the higher expectations thrust upon you by society and your community to not be a bad athlete and to keep making more money to keep giving away to friends and family who suddenly need it to solve all their problems. Not to mention most of these stars were often of lower grades and were only really good at the sport, a large majority of them from low income areas and whose scholarship to college was based entirely around their sport. 

 

You can't just quite any time, because if you do you'll go broke in a year, be in prison, or dead, possibly a large combination of the two. Maybe if you weren't focused on religion, you'd know there were social problems in society today that get completed ignored in favor of what words we say come December.

[Spicen]

Yes its a game and you can quit anytime. if you're good a few matches will set you for life. But that's beside the point. You are not pets of a zealous religion that just loves to have control over everything. People don't hate religion in general, they hate religions that meddle in politics

To be honest the only people who are being zealous are atheists who cant stand having the game having an organized religion. Some even threatening to burn their games if the chantry is left standing.

Im assuming ur some sort of ambassador of this "people". Who are these "people"? Care to explain.

[Lulupab]

... that's a lot of speculation for one paragraph.  What about the various anti-magic abilities that mages can learn in DA:O?  None of those are based on blood magic, they are merely another form of energy control and disrupting interaction with the Fade.  I have no doubt that the Templar's abilities originated from magic, but there is no evidence of a link to blood magic.  Assuming that it might be the case does not make it so, especially when a more logical alternative theory is completely ignored.
 
Also, red lyrium has nothing to do with Templars or their abilities... Bartrand was not a Templar but was corrupted and empowered beyond dwarven norms by red lyrium.

I didn't say its related to blood magic, I said its related to demons. In other words I said there is high chance Templars learned their skills from fade denizens.

Demons, particularly pride demons can dispel and interrupt magic like the Templars and use the same "techniques". This is not speculation.

Also I didn't say Blue and Red Lyrium are exactly the same but they are fundamentally the same chemical, one is just much more potent. A good example would be seeing blue Lyrium as a spirit and red Lyrium as a demon. The latter is always dangerous but the former can be dangerous or useful or both. Justice is a spirit yet he did things that many call him demon (he is recognized as a spirit by a demon in the fade and unlike demonic abomination who are ALWAYS red he is blue which is kinda ironic in this example so fundamentally he is a spirit but does "demony" things). The point is I wouldn't be surprised one bit if this was true given the circumstances.

[Steelcan]

The Answer to that question is at the bottom of a 12 ounce bottle i believe.

alas a bottle of scotch while attempting Meinen Deutsch Hausaufgaben ist keine gut Idee

[Medhia_Nox]

Someone on this thread should educate themselves about the Nika riots.

 

Everything - even sports - can be turned into a political movement.  Everything that develops factions can be a force of control.  Every belief will try to crush others.  It is the nature of men. 

 

In fact - I find religion to be the most honest in this aspect. 

 

The vast majority of people are black and white - just look at the BSN.  Their belief is right (White) and the "other" is wrong (Black).  Religion at least has the balls to say:  "I am going to tell you I believe this is absolutely true."

 

And no - I'm not at all religious.

[TTTX]

Nope there isn't unless you want search differences beyond how long it lasted that something lasted doesn't meant it do good job see orzammar...

The Tevinter empire is a country with many systems while the circle is one system that doesn't belong to any one country which have one purpose to prevent another rise of another emporium which it has succeed at for about 1000 years.

Orzammar are stuck in tradition much the elite of Tevinter.

 

 

Well im sure in good hands templars can crush mages prevent them from causing disaster.Besides as it is said templars were loyal to their job for centuries and many still are problem in that system collapsed thanks to mages and mostly divine.

And a coupe templars along with a lord seeker. They are not free of the blame despite what you believe.

[umadcommander]

good gods where to begin

they say when someone selects a targaryen avatar the gods flip a coin.........

[Tevinter Rose]

Yes its a game and you can quit anytime. if you're good a few matches will set you for life. But that's beside the point. You are not pets of a zealous religion that just loves to have control over everything. People don't hate religion in general, they hate religions that meddle in politics and try to rule (which is sadly most religions). The only "good ending" I see for chantry is existing in a secular fashion. People go there and pray etc... but it has no say in politics like current situation of Christianity in west, it used to be like chantry and held full power, but not anymore. Its officially and completely separated from state. (more or less)

 

I agree. I think the Chantry is better suited outside of politics/government/monarchy.