1391 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

alas a bottle of scotch while attempting Meinen Deutsch Hausaufgaben ist keine gut Idee

 

Bloody school work...

[TTTX]

You do realize that he is likely inferring to the disciples who died alongside Andraste in Tevinter correct?

 

She was burned at the stake along with her war leaders.

it's possible. unfortunately we don't know.

[Lulupab]

To be honest the only people who are being zealous are atheists who cant stand having the game having an organized religion. Some even threatening to burn their games if the chantry is left standing.
Im assuming ur some sort of ambassador of this "people". Who are these "people"? Care to explain.

Take a good look around you, if that's not sufficient make a thread and tell us Christianity is the best thing ever. Observe. You will see these "people" I'm talking about. They particularly use the internet. There is a much higher chance to meet an atheist on the internet than anywhere else.

There's something called a contract, maybe you heard of it. And set for life? What kind of fantasy world are you living in? The amount of taxes you pay as a professional athlete most times balances out a lot of what you make. Beyond that is the higher expectations thrust upon you by society and your community to not be a bad athlete and to keep making more money to keep giving away to friends and family who suddenly need it to solve all their problems. Not to mention most of these stars were often of lower grades and were only really good at the sport, a large majority of them from low income areas and whose scholarship to college was based entirely around their sport.

You can't just quite any time, because if you do you'll go broke in a year, be in prison, or dead, possibly a large combination of the two. Maybe if you weren't focused on religion, you'd know there were social problems in society today that get completed ignored in favor of what words we say come December.

Sorry but your shitty US rules does not apply in Europe. There are many European Athletes who quit and start to make a family because that's not really possible while playing. But this is off-topic don't you think? I did say its beside the point.

[Icy Magebane]

You see templars turning a blind eye in da 1 and 2 and they where still being given their fix by the chantry at this point further corruption is inevitable and the outcome is not hypothetical the red templars exist and seeks to prevent the inquisition from closing fade portals.

The Templars as a whole are no more corrupt than any law enforcement agency...  I don't condone what went on in Kirkwall, but they are the most extreme example of unlimited power and a total lack of oversight.  The Templars in DA:O were far more humane and understanding, and not once did they approach the level of barbarism and sadism displayed by certain members of the Kirkwall Templars (again, these are not universal traits, even among the uniformly strict Kirkwall Templars).  If anything this suggests that the order is in serious need of reform and routine oversight by an outside party, not that the system should be completely discarded.

 

Furthermore, we have seen Red Templars in conflict with the Inquisition but have on idea why the two factions are fighting... whatever their flaws, nothing I've seen suggests that they wish to allow demons to pour into the world unopposed.

[Darkly Tranquil]

You do realize that he is likely inferring to the disciples who died alongside Andraste in Tevinter correct?
 
She was burned at the stake along with her war leaders.
 
So you say now after you have been provided sources proving your own inaccurate belief that there was nothing linking him to the Maker.
 
That's your assumption, And that's likely what it devolved into pitiably enough.
 
But it gives me comfort to think that the promise was genuine and the elves turned against those who gave them freedom.

Actually, I posted that comment before that reference was posted (check the post times), so my point remains. What Shartan personally believed is a moot point. Just because a leader believes one thing, doesn't obligate everyone else to blindly follow it.

The World of Thedas states on page 28, "In the Dales, the elves attempted to rebuild their culture and worship their pantheon of lost gods.", so it's not an assumption that the elves were living according to elven culture. They would have gone about their business without any trouble if humans had simply left them alone, which is all the elves wanted; to live in peace away from humans (what they have wanted since the first human arrived on Thedas). The only thing it "devolved" into was a slaughter when the humans provoked the Elves to justify an Exalted March.

If anyone broke their promises, it was the humans. They promised the elves a homeland and then when the elves didn't behave exactly as they wanted (by become Andrastians) they destroyed the Elves home and reduced them to little more than serfs for having the temerity to want to live according to their own beliefs.

This has been my point all along. This is what the Chantry does and why it is not a good or moral organisation. It is a religio-military crusading force that wants to bring everyone under its heel, whether they like it or not. They are no better than the Qunari when it comes to ambitions of total domination. They may claim lofty spiritual inspiration, but their actions are all about building and reinforcing their wealth and political and military power.

[RobRam10]

The Glorious Tevinter Imperium is a country with many  superb systems while the slave pens Circle is one system that doesn't belong to any country which has one purpose to prevent another rise of another Glorious Imperium which it succeed at for about 1000 years is slowly failing!

[Icy Magebane]

I didn't say its related to blood magic, I said its related to demons. In other words I said there is high chance Templars learned their skills from fade denizens.

Demons, particularly pride demons can dispel and interrupt magic like the Templars and use the same "techniques". This is not speculation.

Also I didn't say Blue and Red Lyrium are exactly the same but they are fundamentally the same chemical, one is just much more potent. A good example would be seeing blue Lyrium as a spirit and red Lyrium as a demon. The latter is always dangerous but the former can be dangerous or useful or both. Justice is a spirit yet he did things that many call him demon (he is recognized as a spirit by a demon in the fade and unlike demonic abomination who are ALWAYS red he is blue which is kinda ironic in this example so fundamentally he is a spirit but does "demony" things). The point is I wouldn't be surprised one bit if this was true given the circumstances.

Anti-magic Ward, Spell Shield, Anti-magic Burst, etc do not come from demons... any mage can learn these spells without help from Fade creatures.

 

Also... where are you getting this information about red lyrium?  I thought it was mostly a mystery, and that the most we know about it is that it makes people physically powerful and mentally unhinged.  Your theories are interesting, but I'm only willing to take facts into account.  I could just as easily come up with a theory on synthetic red lyrium and give a list of reason for why it may have harmful effects on mortals...

[TTTX]

Also, red lyrium has nothing to do with Templars or their abilities... Bartrand was not a Templar but was corrupted and empowered beyond dwarven norms by red lyrium.

Red Lyrium is bad news.

[Spicen]

Take a good look around you, if that's not sufficient make a thread and tell us Christianity is the best thing ever. Observe. You will see these "people" I'm talking about. They particularly use the internet. There is a much higher chance to meet an atheist on the internet than anywhere else

shitty US rules

Im not a preacher. This is a gaming site not a preaching site and not a site for discussing ur distaste for religion. And tge fact therea so many atheists here kinda shows they are ignored by others. So they get behind the safety of PCs to preach their distaste. They seem to have a lot of time to waste spreading their hatred. Why dont u go and help someone out with ur extra time.

Yes. THAT is the language i expect from u.

[Medhia_Nox]

How do the elves even know "what" their ancient culture was like?  They can't even get a bunch of mirrors to work.

 

You know who DID get a bunch of mirrors to work?  Three humans.  Celene, Michel and Morrigan.

 

At any rate - I'm pretty sure the Thedas spanning fabled empire of the elves wasn't a bunch of gypsy land-sail boat/carts driven by albino reindeer.

[Mistic]

Someone on this thread should educate themselves about the Nika riots.

Everything - even sports - can be turned into a political movement.

 

Oh, yeah, that was terrible and ridiculous at the same time. High taxes, conspiring senators, a peace treaty with Persia in the making and everything explodes because of chariot racing hooligans.

 

The Templars as a whole are no more corrupt than any law enforcement agency...  I don't condone what went on in Kirkwall, but they are the most extreme example of unlimited power and a total lack of oversight.  The Templars in DA:O were far more humane and understanding, and not once did they approach the level of barbarism and sadism displayed by certain members of the Kirkwall Templars (again, these are not universal traits, even among the uniformly strict Kirkwall Templars).  If anything this suggests that the order is in serious need of reform and routine oversight by an outside party, not that the system should be completely discarded.

 

Furthermore, we have seen Red Templars in conflict with the Inquisition but have on idea why the two factions are fighting... whatever their flaws, nothing I've seen suggests that they wish to allow demons to pour into the world unopposed.

 

After Kirkwall, the Circle of Magi in Ferelden looks like a paradise full of sensible people, doesn't it?

 

Well, the only two users of Red Lyrium we have seen so far have become mad and murderous. I don't think there's much reason to look at, the same way you wouldn't ask yourself why the Venatori are enemies (unless you want to worship the Elder One, but that's in another thread).

[Steelcan]

How do the elves even know "what" their ancient culture was like?  They can't even get a bunch of mirrors to work.

They don't, Felassan proves that they actually know precious little about the ancient elves of Arlathan.

[Spicen]

The Glorious Tevinter Imperium is a country with many superb systems while the slave pens Circle is one system that doesn't belong to any country which has one purpose to prevent another rise of another Glorious Imperium which it succeed at for about 1000 years is slowly failing!

Your glorious Tevinter is currently fighting for its survival.

[dragonflight288]

Ok Dragon, lets play:

 

snip

 

They also squash personal freedom, tell you what you will be doing for the rest of your life, and either forcibly convert you or put you to death.  If you are a mage they cut out your tongue and bind you.

 

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss the Chantry, whether we like it or not, why we do so, and our analysis of that. Bringing up the faults of the Qunari, while it does show them to be far more intolerant, still does not change my opinion of the Chantry based on the impressions I got from its lore and history. It simply shows the Qunari can be far worse. Simply saying one group out of two happens to be better than the other one does not make it 'good' by default. 

 

I was using the Qunari as example because it's commonly accepted that they are worse, but they still treat elves better than the Chantry does unless that elf happens to be a mage or refuses to convert.

 

There isn't anything to deny here, but what exactly is wrong with the chantry looking out for its best interests?  They are based in Orlais, Drakon was very influential in helping to build the chantry up, it is there power base, what exactly is the problem here?  It would be like expecting the Church of England to side with France against England.  As for the exalted marches we have 1. Against the dales that was called after the dalish sacked Val Royeux, the seat of the chantry. 2. Against Starkhaven, is debatable. We really don't know the entirety of why an exalted march was called. It is the one that most fits with your belief, but it isn't like Orlais ruled starkhaven, all information says that Starkhaven was made independent. 3. Imperial Chantry-this is entirely a religious matter. Right or wrong the chantry of the imperium had broken away and the Orlesian Chantry was trying to return them to their control as opposed to their percieved blasphemy.  They Qunari-again religious survival.  The Qun has no room for the chantry and vice versa.

 

That's the thing, the Chantry isn't looking out for their own interests. They're looking out for the interests of other countries, specifically, Orlais. And the Church of England comparison does not work because the Church of England is only housed in England to my knowledge. A better one is saying if the Roman Catholic Church got involved in a trading dispute between Germany and Italy. No morals are being discussed, no religious background. It ordered members of its clergy to try and directly interfere the national politics and tax policies on an issue that has nothing to do with the church itself and everything to do with a bitterness between two countries. This is what the Chantry did with Kirkwall and Orlais, and that's why the Viscount tried to drive the templars out of Kirkwall.

 

And the Exalted Marches I'm talking about are discussed right in the History of the Chantry codex entries. The first exalted march is considered Andraste's against the Imperium, and the second ones were Drakon using the devout to help him conquer all the neighboring city states to form the nation of Orlais in -15 Ancient through -3 Ancient, with the first Divine being appointed in the beginning of the Divine Age. 

 

The Chantry was founded in the founding of Orlais, as such, they have a tendency to get too involved in Orlais' interests and defend those interests, even if it comes at the cost of other faithful members of the Chantry who are not Orlesian. 

 

They supported the legitimate government of the area. Orlais had conquered Ferelden. The war was over.  You had a rebel group, but that is hardly a legitimate government.  You also had chantry priests who served in the rebellion, Mother Ailis.

 

They supported Orlais' right to rule, even going so far as nearly naming the Dragon Age the Sun Age in 'celebration of Orlesian glory.' (Calender of Thedas codex.) The Divine even named it the Dragon Age, not only because of the High Dragon appearance, but also to show support of Mehren shortly before the battle of River Dane, while at the same time the local clergy, like the Grand Cleric who was staunchly pro-Orlesian, were taking a step back and thinking "we may not be welcome here any more if the Orlesians lose."

 

Like I said, individual members of the Chantry may try to help, but as an institution, which the Divine trying to show support for the Orlesian forces shows or by getting involved in a trade dispute between Orlais and a city-state, that they will always support Orlais, often in matters that need not require members of the clergy at all. 

 

To the victor go the spoils.

 

You're missing the point I was trying to point out. The point was that the Chantry believes that the Chant must be sung from all corners of the world, and it must be sung correctly. Yet they will take out parts of their own scripture when it becomes politically inconvenient. Yes, they won the war against the Dales, but at the same time they did so they also removed from the Chant of Light the Canticle celebrating elves and their contribution to the war against the Imperium.

 

Fast forward to the City Elf origin, and you have elven children playing as heroes who don't know of a single elven hero like Shartan, or Garahel. 

 

If the Chantry was truly as concerned about spreading the Chant of Light as it is said to be there beliefs, they wouldn't cut things out, especially things that would actually help build up the people they just conquered and agreed to convert (for the most part.)

 

I was making a comment on the hypocrisy of their beliefs on wishing to spread the Chant, but also on their practice of editing that same Chant when parts of it become inconvenient for their beliefs, or Orlais' strength. 

 

How exactly phylacteries work I have no clue, but I also don't consider the on the same plane as blood magic. Phylacteries are inert and don't actually affect anyone, they just allow you to be tracked.

 

Evangeline in Asunder says the templars are hypocrites because the phylacteries, using a mages blood, is a form of blood magic. David Gaider said that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn says that his ritual to discover the Lights of Arlathan, using Dalish blood as a component, would be seen as a grey area because although the blood wasn't powering the spell, it was still used in it. Heck, the Tome of the Mortal Vessel item description outright says that there are many who ban anatomical practices because it is considered blood magic because it requires studying the body, which has blood. 

 

Blood magic is using blood as a power source, or as a component in a magical ritual or spell. The Grey Warden joining is blood magic because of its use of archdemon and darkspawn blood. The Reaver ritual is blood magic because of its use of dragon blood. Phylacteries are blood magic because of their use of mages blood. 

 

Blood magic isn't just controlling people's minds or amplifying existing spells. It's simply the use of blood in the spell or ritual in and of itself. Often used for dark and nefarious deeds, but that's really all it is. 

 

Well, a divine is divine representation of Andraste on earth, so therefore if they choose to remove verses from the chant they are acting in the will of Andraste and know better then us mere mortals.

 

So if we follow this logic, Justinia V is the divine representation of Andraste, and had every right to try and help mages and Lambert and the Seekers/Templars should've just sucked it up because they are mere mortals? And the Divine who is elected by the Grand Clerics, those same Grand Clerics never, ever have any second thoughts if the Divine starts saying things they disapprove of?

 

I noticed you didn't actually address my point on the hypocrisy of the Chantry as an institution when it comes to its beliefs in the Chant. 

 

Already addressed the orlais part. I would agree that the Chantry sees non humans as being further removed from the maker, but they are open to all races.  We know there are elven templars and mothers according to gaider, they just aren't common, and city elves are mostly chantry as well, so it isn't like they are barred.

 

They just are denied equal opportunities and the devs have said that the Chantry will not come out and say that elves are equal to humans in the eyes of the Maker. You never addressed that point either, so that means even if there are some exceptions, the Chantry still sees other races as lesser to humans. 

 

I won't really argue this, but as I have said previously, all institutions have this same fault and failing. Seriously from the Qunari to the Imperium to Ferelden to wherever and whatever races you wish to consider. They all suffer from the same. It is no more hypocritical then to hold up the Dalish or the Dwarves or the Qunari as superior to the Chantry when they all have their faliings and hypocrisies.  Is the Chantry perfect, no, but it isn't the root of all evil in Thedas either.   I hope that DAI shows more of the failings and problems of other cultures and groups.

 

I never said it was the root of all evil, and I never said it was worse than other groups. I simply gave my impressions of the Chantry and the reasons why I don't care for it as an institution. 

 

Inquisition is almost going to have to at some level, the Chantry is going to lose all its leaders at the Peace Summit and is pretty much fallen to pieces at this point in time. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The World of Thedas states on page 28, "In the Dales, the elves attempted to rebuild their culture and worship their pantheon of lost gods.", so it's not an assumption that the elves were living according to elven culture. They would have gone about their business without any trouble if humans had simply left them alone, which is all the elves wanted; to live in peace away from humans (what they have wanted since the first human arrived on Thedas). The only thing it "devolved" into was a slaughter when the humans provoked the Elves to justify an Exalted March.
 

 

Right, Because when elven marauders break from their borders and attempt invasion it's quite alright to forgive their actions.

 

When they march upon the cities of Orlais, its fine, its the Humans who are being intolerant for their need of additional territory and resources, its the humans who remembering the second blight and how the Dales sat to the side and watched the Empire crumble around them and did not lift a finger to aid them while Orlais fought against the Darkspawn.

 

Because if you look at it logically, it looks suspiciously like the Dales were merely biding their time and launched an invasion when their neighbor grew weak.

 

You wish to believe that Shartan and what he believed doesn't matter?

 

Fine, i don't agree, i think its spitting in the eye of all the elves that died for Andraste and her cause, but when you actually sit there and type out it was an unprovoked response, i think do you just ignore bits of the lore that are inconvenient to you?

[Master Warder Z_]

They don't, Felassan proves that they actually know precious little about the ancient elves of Arlathan.

 

Bloody Magocracies should be forgotten.

[TTTX]

The Templars as a whole are no more corrupt than any law enforcement agency...  I don't condone what went on in Kirkwall, but they are the most extreme example of unlimited power and a total lack of oversight.  The Templars in DA:O were far more humane and understanding, and not once did they approach the level of barbarism and sadism displayed by certain members of the Kirkwall Templars (again, these are not universal traits, even among the uniformly strict Kirkwall Templars).  If anything this suggests that the order is in serious need of reform and routine oversight by an outside party, not that the system should be completely discarded.

 

Furthermore, we have seen Red Templars in conflict with the Inquisition but have on idea why the two factions are fighting... whatever their flaws, nothing I've seen suggests that they wish to allow demons to pour into the world unopposed.

It would very bad idea to remove the Templars, they are needed for many reasons much like mages they both have a roll to play in the world.

 

 

The Glorious Tevinter Imperium is a country with many  superb systems while the slave pens Circle is one system that doesn't belong to any country which has one purpose to prevent another rise of another Glorious Imperium which it succeed at for about 1000 years is slowly failing!

 

*facepalm*

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Someone on this thread should educate themselves about the Nika riots.

 

Everything - even sports - can be turned into a political movement.  Everything that develops factions can be a force of control.  Every belief will try to crush others.  It is the nature of men. 

 

In fact - I find religion to be the most honest in this aspect. 

 

The vast majority of people are black and white - just look at the BSN.  Their belief is right (White) and the "other" is wrong (Black).  Religion at least has the balls to say:  "I am going to tell you I believe this is absolutely true."

 

And no - I'm not at all religious.

 

Are you saying the chantry can't ninjamance the player? Cause I'm sure someone will out here saying "I was just minding my business talking to this NPC and all of a sudden I'm being baptised. I was totes Ninja Converted."

[X Equestris]

Actually, I posted that comment before that reference was posted (check the post times), so my point remains. What Shartan personally believed is a moot point. Just because a leader believes one thing, doesn't obligate everyone else to blindly follow it.
The World of Thedas states on page 28, "In the Dales, the elves attempted to rebuild their culture and worship their pantheon of lost gods.", so it's not an assumption that the elves were living according to elven culture. They would have gone about their business without any trouble if humans had simply left them alone, which is all the elves wanted; to live in peace away from humans (what they have wanted since the first human arrived on Thedas). The only thing it "devolved" into was a slaughter when the humans provoked the Elves to justify an Exalted March.
If anyone broke their promises, it was the humans. They promised the elves a homeland and then when the elves didn't behave exactly as they wanted (by become Andrastians) they destroyed the Elves home and reduced them to little more than serfs for having the temerity to want to live according to their own beliefs.
This has been my point all along. This is what the Chantry does and why it is not a good or moral organisation. It is a religio-military crusading force that wants to bring everyone under its heel, whether they like it or not. They are no better than the Qunari when it comes to ambitions of total domination. They may claim lofty spiritual inspiration, but their actions are all about building and reinforcing their wealth and political and military power.

And yet the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Montsimmard. They were marching on Val Royeaux. We don't know exactly what precipitated the conflict. Don't try to pretend that the elves are perfect. They refused to intervene in the Second Blight. They would have let the world burn because...they think humans make them age?

No one is a saint in DA. The only group that is undeniably evil is unawakened darkspawn. Everyone else is just shades of gray. The Chantry may need reform, but it is one of the few organizations in Thedas that even tries to make the world a better place.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Sorry but your shitty US rules does not apply in Europe. There are many European Athletes who quit and start to make a family because that's not really possible while playing. But this is off-topic don't you think? I did say its beside the point.

 

And now we bring bigot nationalism into the mix. Lovely.

[Spicen]

It would very bad idea to remove the Templars, they are needed for many reasons much like mages they both have a roll to play in the world.

*facepalm*

+1.

*double facepalm*

[Spicen]

And now we bring bigot nationalism into the mix. Lovely.

The rate at which he was going at, are u even surprised.

[Mistic]

The World of Thedas states on page 28, "In the Dales, the elves attempted to rebuild their culture and worship their pantheon of lost gods.", so it's not an assumption that the elves were living according to elven culture. They would have gone about their business without any trouble if humans had simply left them alone, which is all the elves wanted; to live in peace away from humans (what they have wanted since the first human arrived on Thedas). The only thing it "devolved" into was a slaughter when the humans provoked the Elves to justify an Exalted March.

 

If you have WoT, check page 73. The elves were already taking cities in Orlais before the Exalted March was declared. So if it was all part of the plan to justify an Exalted March, the Orlesians were morons and it doesn't explain why the Chantry took its sweet time (a year!) to declare holy war against the elves.

 

My guess? Action-reaction until border skirmishes became a total war. Nothing more heinous, nor less tragic.

 

If anyone broke their promises, it was the humans. They promised the elves a homeland and then when the elves didn't behave exactly as they wanted (by become Andrastians) they destroyed the Elves home and reduced them to little more than serfs for having the temerity to want to live according to their own beliefs.

 

Sadly, neither in Thedas nor in real life there is a spokesperson for humanity. Maferath and company promised and Maferath and company fulfilled. Not "humanity" (hell, the Tevinter Imperium still existed and they can't be more anti-elven). Orlais and the Chantry didn't exist at that time, mind you, so how could they break a promise they never made?

[Master Warder Z_]

And yet the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Montsimmard. They were marching on Val Royeaux. We don't know exactly what precipitated the conflict. Don't try to pretend that the elves are perfect. They refused to intervene in the Second Blight. They would have let the world burn because...they think humans make them age?

 

While the Dales held their borders closed, Orlais sent Armies to defend their Empire, they sent Armies to break the siege in the Anderfells at the grey warden fortress, Honestly if we look at the actions of various Nations during the second blight?

 

It was Orlais that did the lions share.

[Steelcan]

Sadly, neither in Thedas nor in real life there is a spokesperson for humanity. Maferath and company promised and Maferath and company fulfilled. Not "humanity" (hell, the Tevinter Imperium still existed and they can't be more anti-elven). Orlais and the Chantry didn't exist at that time, mind you, so how could they break a promise they never made?

 

in Tevinter magical ability is secondary to race, elves can be imperial citizens and enjoy full rights