Demons can force a mage (as we see in the Broken Circle).
From the other side as well?
And the people who think they can control demons - are exactly the people who wouldn't be able to.
Obviously, you don't need to control them, you need to strike a mutually beneficial deal, so they would be satisfied.
Or you can be like Hawke and the Warden, make a deal then proceed to break it, or intimidate the demon to give you what you want without giving it anything in turn.
Certainly not easy, but possible.
Or you can be like Hawke and the Warden, make a deal then proceed to break it, or intimidate the demon to give you what you want without giving it anything in turn.
Certainly not easy, but possible.
And burns bridges for future opportunities.
Obviously, you don't need to control them, you need to strike a mutually beneficial deal, so they would be satisfied.
Like giving them access to the physical world by giving them a host. Like a corpse.
Oh, hey, and we have a Necromancer spec! "Controlling" demons and slaying demons, good times ahead!
Admittedly, it is a dangerous game dealing with spirits. Harvester is an example. Got to make sure you are not dealing with a strong/clever demon, best to deal with the simple, weak ones... like Wisp Wraiths or rage demons... pushing it with rage demons, though.
The one in Ferelden, where a mage was going to be made tranquil without the First Enchanter seeing any evidence of his guilt? With the moderate First Enchanter who said that life in the Circle of Ferelden was a matter of survival and stated, "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness." Let's just say that I respectfully disagree with you about the Circle.
Furthermore, there are a plethora of people who stated their dislike of MoTA because it forced them into a pro-Qunari position (as well as with Tallis' views), so I don't see why you think most people who disagree with the Circles like the Qun.
You know what the problem is with this entire part of your post? It's addressing how people have actual reasons for not liking Grand Cleric Elthina, whether you agree with them or not - you're basically making the case for me that it's not an issue of how people feel about real world religion, but about other matters entirely pertaining to the world of Thedas. Pointing out that Elthna's inaction is why some people take issue with her already dismisses the initial claim you make that it's players "hatred of real life religion", which comes across as an incredibly lazy way to dismiss points you disagree with.
You're making another case for me where you're pointing out that some people dislike Sebastian because they don't want to kill Anders, or where they oppose his threats against Kirkwall - in other words, things that don't pertain to real world religion. Putting aside the whole issue of Anders' actions, people opposing the Prince of Starkhaven for wanting Anders dead or his threats addresses that those players have their own reasons for disliking the character.
As for the Andrastian faith, some people bring up Sebastian's comment about thinking the Dalish are souls "awaiting the Light" when they talk about his role as a faithful Andrastian; while I don't agree with Sebastian's Andrastian views, I don't dislike the character, either. I've also seen people who dislike Anders pushing his Andrastian faith on Merrill when she says she doesn't share the Andrastian view of Spirits and Demons, and I'm one of those people.
-Jowan THOUGHT they were going to make him tranquil, he didn't have proof. Also he was a blood mage which is dangerous to everyone around him, what did he expect?
-Actually look at the Ferelden circle. Do you see any beatings? Murders? Rapes? Templars cracking the whip? Verbal abuse? A restricted and prison-like environment? No, you don't. What you see is basically a boarding school. People learning, gossiping, experimenting, lazing around, it reminds me of Hogwarts rather than some kind of horrible fear and pain factory of horribleness that people make it out to be. The downside is that you're stuck there. (though you have servants and live in luxury unlike the majority of the population mucking out a living in Ferelden) HOWEVER, once you're trained and have proved you're not a danger to yourself or others (because demon possession and blood magic is a huge and actual threat) you can get permission to leave. Wynne frolicked around the countryside with the warden for a full year, Innes the botanist was given free reign to do her studies at her leisure in the middle of the woods and both were unsupervised. Even though collecting and training mages so they don't become abominations or go on blood magic murder sprees is a necessity, the result seems like a pretty awesome life to me where it could be horrible. It could be like the Qun which again I point to the hypocrisy of hating the chantry for their treatment of mages while thinking the Qunari are awesome. There are multitudes of people with this attitude despite the ones who had a problem with being forced to help Talis. (regardless of what the choice was, people don't like being railroaded)
-The point of my post was that people hate Elthina supposedly because she is a person of power who stands by and does nothing yet the same people have no problem with the Viscount who is the same, a person of power who stands by and does nothing. At least Elthina tries to make peace, the Viscount just sits on his hands and makes you run errands for him, does nothing about the growing threat of the Qunari, and unlike Elthina, he had real power. The difference is the Viscount is not religiously affiliated. If there are two nearly identical characters and only one is hated and bashed (the religious one) and the other is not at all (the non religious one) then it's pretty easy to make the leap that real world prejudice against religious people is coloring that opinion/attitude.
An overwhelming large percentage of people say they hate the chantry, but hardly anyone speaks up about hating the Qun or the Dwarven system of ancestor worship. The Dwarven society treats people like dogs because some distant ancestor of theirs stole a loaf of bread. There is no freedom in Dwarven society, people are stuck being the same thing their parents were regardless of their own talents or desires. Zerlinda was told by her family to leave her baby in the deep roads to be eaten by darkspawn or starve to death because his father was casteless. His ancestors were dishonorable and so the baby was worse less than nothing. Who in that society would help her? What system is set up to give aid to such people? None. Who actually helps her? The chantry. Brother Burkel and his small chantry take her and her baby in, no strings attached, no kicking the baby out on the street and back to Dust Town when he comes of age like his grandfather would do.
When the Arl's men and the king's soldiers deserted Lothering and left the villagers to be overwhelmed by the darkspawn, who stayed to help? The chantry priests and Templars. The chantry takes in orphans, feeds the poor, runs a community service like the chanter's board, etc...but who cares about that when they do evil things like talk about the maker or train mages so they're not a danger to themselves or others?
What's wrong with disliking religion and working against it? Specially when religion is directly influencing the way of life in a way that you dislike and when you personally get involved.
You don't want to be religious, that's all fine and dandy. Hating a person because they have a religion, yeah there's something wrong with that. Ignoring all the good things an organization does and demonizing them because you don't like that they believe in a deity, that's messed up also.
You don't want to be religious, that's all fine and dandy. Hating a person because they have a religion, yeah there's something wrong with that. Ignoring all the good things an organization does and demonizing them because you don't like that they believe in a deity, that's messed up also.
I don't hate the Andrastian religion just because it is a religion, I don't like them for what they actually stand for, their way of life, their views.
I don't hate the Andrastian religion just because it is a religion, I don't like them for what they actually stand for, their way of life, their views.
Bummer.
@ Nefla
I don't bring up hating the Qun because for the most part they're commonly accepted as worse. And although I'm a huge fan of the dwarves, there aren't many dwarven threads around, but you won't find me defending the caste system, unless it's as a joke at Ser Jory's expense. Not to mention this is a Chantry thread, not a Qun thread or a dwarf thread.
As such, I limited my arguments on why I don't like the Chantry to strictly the Chantry because that's the topic of the thread.
Arguing against one thing is not the same as saying another thing has to be better by virtue of not mentioning it.
Obviously, you don't need to control them, you need to strike a mutually beneficial deal, so they would be satisfied.
*snip*
Like I care about what this vermin thinks. lol
@ Nefla
I don't bring up hating the Qun because for the most part they're commonly accepted as worse. And although I'm a huge fan of the dwarves, there aren't many dwarven threads around, but you won't find me defending the caste system, unless it's as a joke at Ser Jory's expense. Not to mention this is a Chantry thread, not a Qun thread or a dwarf thread.
As such, I limited my arguments on why I don't like the Chantry to strictly the Chantry because that's the topic of the thread.
Arguing against one thing is not the same as saying another thing has to be better by virtue of not mentioning it.
I haven't found the Qun to be commonly accepted as worse. You see lots of people wishing they could play their Qunari inquisitor as an actual follower of the Qun for example or people praising how cool the Qunari were in DA2 or how they thought the Arishok was awesome and they wished they could have been his ally. I bring up the comparison to the Qun and the caste system because both of those things are much worse and they are bad for the reasons people say they hate the chantry but even more so and yet the chantry is the one commonly being hated on. It's very backwards to me and I can't help but see people as being tainted by their negative real world views on the parallel real world religions of Christianity and Catholicism.
Dealings with demons are like wishes with Djinns.
The only way to win is not to play at all.
Demons are very helpful, right until they take your mind and turn you into a monster.
I'm not truncating "people who disagree with me" because I have no strong opinions about the Chantry whatsoever.
You've made posts in defense of the Chantry of Andraste, and you vilified people who disliked the Andrastian Chantry. Insulting people who dislike the Chantry isn't exactly a convincing means of persuading people that you don't have strong opinions on the Chantry.
I'm just noting that from my perspective the vast majority of the people running around screaming about how the pretty standard fictional religion is the spawn of satan and they will hate the game if they do not have the ability to destory it are all a bit mad. Usually about the mages, the Dalish or real-life religions. Sometimes all three.
Some people dislike the Chantry of Andraste, and before Laidlaw said that the Inquisition wouldn't be a "puppet of the church" and Darrah expressed that the Inquisition was "in opposition to the Chantry", players expressed that they didn't want to play a game where they would be beholden to an organization that they oppose morally and ethically.
I mean the very mention that the Inqusition is a primarily Andrastian organization has led to so much raging and yelling...
You shouldn't be surprised that people express their opinion on a forum. Some don't like the Andrastian for a number of reasons. People also expressed disdain for the Qun, and for being forced into a pro-Qunari position in MoTA.
Dealings with demons are like wishes with Djinns.
The only way to win is not to play at all.
What's wrong with Djinns wishes?
When I began to play Dragon Age recently, with a Human Mage female Warden, my views on the majority of the Chantry and Templars changed. I thought they abused the mages no matter what. However, I believe they are being demonize for the plight of the mages and elves when the former goes to blood mage mode either for power or because it is the easy way out of tough situations. Least, in Dragon Age 2, it seems that way. The elves...yeah, they receive horrible treatment, but is it because of the Chantry or the nobles? The humans are in charge, so most would see themselves above the elves.
Now, do I agree with everything they did? No. Petrice is the prime example of corruption within the Chantry, with the way she treated the Qunari because of the Qun. I don't agree with the Qun but I don't feel right killing them with pleasure just because they are "heathens". And Elthina is a really nice character, I probably just wished she did a little more.
Well, truth be told, I always suspected the codex History of the Circle. It looked more like a legend and Petrine is a very pro-Chantry source, more than Genitivi. For that to have happened, in 19 years from 1:1 to 1:20 there should have been at least three Divines (Justinia I, some Ambrosia I and then Ambrosia II). Also, given that at that time Drakon was busy using mages in the Second Blight, I don't think they had time to be bored by only being used "to kindle the eternal flame". Not to tell about mentioning Templars, who by that time didn't exist yet.
All in all, given Occam's razor, I think History of the Circle doesn't really explain how the Circles were born. It's either a pro-Chantry fairy-tale created to put them in a good light (and avoid mentioning the Inquisition), or the events it describes happened later and tell of the seclusion of the mages in remote areas, not the birth of the Circle system itself.
It's more a History of the Circle Towers (the Andrastian versions, to be precise) than a history of the Circles of Magi themselves.
It's very backwards to me and I can't help but see people as being tainted by their negative real world views on the parallel real world religions of Christianity and Catholicism.
I don't want to start a debate about real world religion here but just want to say one thing: You realize that real world religions are ALSO mostly disliked because of legit practical reasons and not JUST because they are religions right? I've never in my life met a person that hates Buddhists for example, but plenty that dislike other religions that take the more active approach on the rest of the society.
Hey, Lobsel, what are your views on the Chantry? I've always wanted to know what you and Xil would do about them, if you could.
-Jowan THOUGHT they were going to make him tranquil, he didn't have proof. Also he was a blood mage which is dangerous to everyone around him, what did he expect?
Lily saw the Rite of Annulment on Irving's desk, and Irving confesses that he signed the Rite because Greagoir claimed there was evidence - that he never personally saw, by the way.
-Actually look at the Ferelden circle. Do you see any beatings? Murders? Rapes? Templars cracking the whip? Verbal abuse? A restricted and prison-like environment? No, you don't. What you see is basically a boarding school. People learning, gossiping, experimenting, lazing around, it reminds me of Hogwarts rather than some kind of horrible fear and pain factory of horribleness that people make it out to be. The downside is that you're stuck there. (though you have servants and live in luxury unlike the majority of the population mucking out a living in Ferelden) HOWEVER, once you're trained and have proved you're not a danger to yourself or others (because demon possession and blood magic is a huge and actual threat) you can get permission to leave. Wynne frolicked around the countryside with the warden for a full year, Innes the botanist was given free reign to do her studies at her leisure in the middle of the woods and both were unsupervised. Even though collecting and training mages so they don't become abominations or go on blood magic murder sprees is a necessity, the result seems like a pretty awesome life to me where it could be horrible. It could be like the Qun which again I point to the hypocrisy of hating the chantry for their treatment of mages while thinking the Qunari are awesome. There are multitudes of people with this attitude despite the ones who had a problem with being forced to help Talis. (regardless of what the choice was, people don't like being railroaded)
There are people who run away for a chance at freedom - like Aneirin, who was nearly killed and left for dead because the templars claimed this young boy was a maleficar and yet, we see him as a benevolent healer as an adult. Anders talks about the suicides that took place. It was also the setting for a rebellion because people wanted more freedoms from the templars. It's clearly not an idyllic paradise when a moderate tells the protagonist about how harsh life in the Circle can be, and explains to the newly Harrowed mage, "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary".
As for your examples, Asunder points out that Wynne has freedoms no other Circle mage possesses, while Ines was a Senior Enchanter studying a plant that was said to grow in Blighted soil - in the wake of the Fifth Blight.
Furthermore, you're helping me dismiss your earlier claim that it's because of a "hatred of real life religion" because you openly admit people have their own reasons for disliking the Chantry that have to do with aspects of the organization.
-The point of my post was that people hate Elthina supposedly because she is a person of power who stands by and does nothing yet the same people have no problem with the Viscount who is the same, a person of power who stands by and does nothing. At least Elthina tries to make peace, the Viscount just sits on his hands and makes you run errands for him, does nothing about the growing threat of the Qunari, and unlike Elthina, he had real power. The difference is the Viscount is not religiously affiliated. If there are two nearly identical characters and only one is hated and bashed (the religious one) and the other is not at all (the non religious one) then it's pretty easy to make the leap that real world prejudice against religious people is coloring that opinion/attitude.
There are people who voiced that the Viscount was nothing more than a figurehead for the templars, who wielded true power in Kirkwall. The difference is that, by the codex entry's own admission, Elthina did have power over Meredith as her superior: "People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes - particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."
An overwhelming large percentage of people say they hate the chantry, but hardly anyone speaks up about hating the Qun or the Dwarven system of ancestor worship. The Dwarven society treats people like dogs because some distant ancestor of theirs stole a loaf of bread. There is no freedom in Dwarven society, people are stuck being the same thing their parents were regardless of their own talents or desires. Zerlinda was told by her family to leave her baby in the deep roads to be eaten by darkspawn or starve to death because his father was casteless. His ancestors were dishonorable and so the baby was worse less than nothing. Who in that society would help her? What system is set up to give aid to such people? None. Who actually helps her? The chantry. Brother Burkel and his small chantry take her and her baby in, no strings attached, no kicking the baby out on the street and back to Dust Town when he comes of age like his grandfather would do.
Were you simply not around when MoTA was released? Many people voiced their displeasure at being forced to side with a Qunari agent, and for letting Tallis get away with a list of Qunari agents. Plenty of people have voiced expressed that they strongly oppose the Qun, and that they have no interest in working with the Qunari.
Regarding the caste system, I doubt many agrees with it, particularly in how harsh it is towards the casteless, which is why no one brings it up - if most people don't dispute it, there wouldn't be a debate about it. People even address it as one of the main reasons they support Bhelen's bid for the throne, since he grants greater freedoms for the casteless.
When the Arl's men and the king's soldiers deserted Lothering and left the villagers to be overwhelmed by the darkspawn, who stayed to help? The chantry priests and Templars. The chantry takes in orphans, feeds the poor, runs a community service like the chanter's board, etc...but who cares about that when they do evil things like talk about the maker or train mages so they're not a danger to themselves or others?
I remember Mother Hannah assuring the Amell Warden that a lynch mob wouldn't kill him - that's another aspect of Andrastian culture that you seem to have omitted, and one echoed by Wynne, who talks about how Andrastians kill mages for things they didn't do. That likely has something to do with their view that mages are cursed, as mentioned in both Origins and Dragon Age II by Andrastians. Even Lambert contemplates, "Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?"
By the way, thank you for this exercise; the simple fact that you're debating the merits of the Chantry with me, in itself, is proof that people don't simply dislike it because it's a religion. 
Dealings with demons are like wishes with Djinns.
The only way to win is not to play at all.
Unless the Djinn is this guy:
Hey, Lobsel, what are your views on the Chantry? I've always wanted to know what you and Xil would do about them, if you could.
I'm not a fan of the Andrastian Chantry.
As for what I would do - if you're talking about Inquisition, it would depend on the character, and their perspective. I'm not sure what my Dwarven rogue or my Vashoth warrior would do at the present (I'll likely have a better idea once I've played Inquisition); my Dalish mage would probably refrain from helping them regain power, but he wouldn't be interested in completely destroying it, either. Having the Andrastian Chantry in a position without say over the legality of the elven pantheon or the lives of mages would also be an ideal that I share with my fictitious character.
When I began to play Dragon Age recently, with a Human Mage female Warden, my views on the majority of the Chantry and Templars changed. I thought they abused the mages no matter what. However, I believe they are being demonize for the plight of the mages and elves when the former goes to blood mage mode either for power or because it is the easy way out of tough situations. Least, in Dragon Age 2, it seems that way. The elves...yeah, they receive horrible treatment, but is it because of the Chantry or the nobles? The humans are in charge, so most would see themselves above the elves.
Now, do I agree with everything they did? No. Petrice is the prime example of corruption within the Chantry, with the way she treated the Qunari because of the Qun. I don't agree with the Qun but I don't feel right killing them with pleasure just because they are "heathens". And Elthina is a really nice character, I probably just wished she did a little more.
About Elves and the Chantry, the Chantry is one of the nicest human-based institutions to them, going up to giving them positions of authority like Sisters and even Templars. So yes, for the Elves I believe the problems come from human nobles who own the cities rather than the Chantry.
The only elven injustice the Chantry does is they made the worship of the Elven Pantheon illegal, but hey the Dales did the same thing to Andrastrianism when they were a country.
Retour en haut
