1391 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

I like how in game the chantry does better work then most every other organization in thedas and commits the least atroscities but gets the most flack over it.

Qunari: Launched a xenophobic extermination campaign against all inhabitants of thedas and wanted to impose a one world religion, society, and cultural order. They kill or lobotomize those who don't agree and run things in the most facist and dictatorial manner imaginable, to the point where children are property of their state and forced to follow the states orders literally from conception to death.

Chantry fights and pushes back extremists in the war, costing thousands of lives but saving millions more. Result: Chantry is evil qunari are so ubercoolz.

Tevinter Imperium: A crumbling dictatorship ruled by a aristocratic elite who practice slavery and whose operatives routinely kidnap citizens from other countries, folks who had nothing to do with them, and sells them into slavery forever. It practices the circle system as well as the templars, but with an added bonus of condoned dark arts, possibly sanctioned homicides for the purpose of academics as well,and continue to be a torment on their fellow thedasians to this day.

Chantry opposes them and probably keeps the rest of thedas from becoming an open source farm for their slavery based economy.

Result: Chantry is evil and the imperium is so cool, blow up more chantires and make society for teh magicz.

Dalsih: A racist, theological, supremacist organization devoted to a cultist worship of their unsupported history and violent aggression towards anyone deemed part of human society. They have been shown to kill humans because of racism, attack merchants because of racism, used biological warfare on humans because of racism, and even once allied with the dark spawn out of racism. They even show discriminatory views on other elves simply because they do not choose to live in the woods as they do, and have no qualm using violence as a first response to contact by humans.

Result: Do I even need to go into how many anti-chantry pro-dalish people there are here?

[Medhia_Nox]

The argument that the Chantry wants to convert everyone is an interesting one.

 

Every active (that is, any with an active group) philosophy - from school cliques to capitalism - is one of conversion. 

[Daerog]

With Dorian in the game, I hope we can discuss more about the Imperial Chantry. All I hear is about the hypocrisy that can be found with some of the adherents still practicing blood magic, but it is still a Chantry and probably does good work like the regular Chantry. Would be nice for the Inquisitor to state adherence to the Imperial Chantry, although I can see issues with that as an international organization mainly dealing with the regular Chantry.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

Dalsih: A racist, theological, supremacist organization devoted to a cultist worship of their unsupported history and violent aggression towards anyone deemed part of human society. They have been shown to kill humans because of racism, attack merchants because of racism, used biological warfare on humans because of racism, and even once allied with the dark spawn out of racism. They even show discriminatory views on other elves simply because they do not choose to live in the woods as they do, and have no qualm using violence as a first response to contact by humans.

Funny . You don't cite all the bad things the chantry did . Like enslaving the Dalish . Oh right , that doesn't count . 

 

The way you name all the GOOD things the chantry did , against the Qunari , the Tevinter and the Dalish . You make them sound like they are an army that stand to protect the peoples of Thedas . 

If that is the case , then maybe they should stop preaching the Maker namer left and right and just become an army and leave the differents races to worship whoever they want . Therefor , we won't find a dwarf chantry priest trying to open shop in Ozammar . And the Dalish may still have something to pick up from the Ruins of their ancestors to call as their histories . 

 

What I personaly hate and you don't have to agree or even like me . What I hate about the chantry is : 

1- Andraste is the one who did the whole work and it is the MAKER that is worshipped .

2-They want to save everyone from their SINS either they like it or not .

3-They let and exuse the Templars when they do horribles things . Considering the Chantry and the Templar neither HAVE Magic and they had to drug the Templar to make them as a weapon..nuff said . 

4-They tend mostly to the Humans . The whole 'Do Good' it is toward the humans . Not everyone , your everyone is 'HUMAN ONLY' . 

So yeah , maybe the chantry is badass that stand against all these evils do-er like the Tevinter and the Qunari . That doesn't mean they do no evil . They do . If they do good work , it is only certain peoples that get it , not everyone . 

 

As for those who said about the chantry priestess who didn't alert the guard : Well what was she supposed to do ? 

I believe in trying no matter what the outcome is . That priestess took an oath at one point . And she just turned her back . Maybe I'm an idiot believing in trying no matter what , but I think she should have . Just like 2 Graywarden went into a mess nobody would have taken for all the money in the world and all odd against them . But they still went anyway and succeeded . 

[Eveangaline]

The argument that the Chantry wants to convert everyone is an interesting one.

Every active (that is, any with an active group) philosophy - from school cliques to capitalism - is one of conversion. 

 

That's just not true. Cliques and groups often only gain importance by their idea of exclusivity. The idea that they don't try and convert you, that you try and do anything to be worthy of entering them and still only the most elite can.

 

And some religions make it hard for people to convert specifically because they don't really want a lot of conversions. Rabbis are supposed to turn away prospective converts away 3 times before letting them try and join. You have to prove your commitment.

[TheSeekerofLulz]

 

I like how in game the chantry does better work then most every other organization in thedas and commits the least atroscities but gets the most flack over it.

Qunari: Launched a xenophobic extermination campaign against all inhabitants of thedas and wanted to impose a one world religion, society, and cultural order. They kill or lobotomize those who don't agree and run things in the most facist and dictatorial manner imaginable, to the point where children are property of their state and forced to follow the states orders literally from conception to death.

Chantry fights and pushes back extremists in the war, costing thousands of lives but saving millions more. Result: Chantry is evil qunari are so ubercoolz.
 

The qunari were new to Thedas and had no idea what they find after reaching Par Vollen. They attacked Thedas out of the kindness of their heart, as you can see with the Arishok, they believe they are saving the "bas" from their own foolish ways. And considering the current situation in Thedas, they were indeed foolish. I also doubt the humans were very welcoming to them too. The only history we have on it is written by the Chantry of course, and they could tell whatever story they wanted. 

 

 

Tevinter Imperium: A crumbling dictatorship ruled by a aristocratic elite who practice slavery and whose operatives routinely kidnap citizens from other countries, folks who had nothing to do with them, and sells them into slavery forever. It practices the circle system as well as the templars, but with an added bonus of condoned dark arts, possibly sanctioned homicides for the purpose of academics as well,and continue to be a torment on their fellow thedasians to this day.

Chantry opposes them and probably keeps the rest of thedas from becoming an open source farm for their slavery based economy.

Result: Chantry is evil and the imperium is so cool, blow up more chantires and make society for teh magicz.
 

Sorry, but the Chantry has no excuse for torturing and enslaving mage children, giving them supposed "board, food, leisure, and protection from the populus," very common excuses for enslaving people. It's still wrong to hold free and honest women and men against their will. Yes, magic is dangerous, but the Chantry went too far in their zealous attitudes towards magic. I'm not excusing slavery, as that was and is wrong, but how is what the Chantry doing to the mages any better?

 

 

Dalsih: A racist, theological, supremacist organization devoted to a cultist worship of their unsupported history and violent aggression towards anyone deemed part of human society. They have been shown to kill humans because of racism, attack merchants because of racism, used biological warfare on humans because of racism, and even once allied with the dark spawn out of racism. They even show discriminatory views on other elves simply because they do not choose to live in the woods as they do, and have no qualm using violence as a first response to contact by humans.

Result: Do I even need to go into how many anti-chantry pro-dalish people there are here?

Honestly, the elves are rightful to fear humans after the destruction of their homeland on multiple occasions by humans. They have no reason to trust the people trying to force them to believe a certain way and abandon their culture. And didn't humans cause the First Blight? Sounds like all Blights are a human problem to me. Let the elves live in peace and stop causing problems for them. They taught the humans magic and they abused it. Humans don't deserve their help. Not for Elvhenan, not for the Dales, not for the continued massacre, harassment, and enslavement of their people, and not for the Blight. 

[X Equestris]

It's worth noting that the Exalted March against the Dales was only declared after the elves invaded Orlais. They brought their fate on themselves.

[Osena109]

Well my hers take on  the dalish  they were never real immortals the used blood magic to bind  them self's to dryad's  aka lady of the  forest the chantry deemed them  Godless heathen's and declared a exalted march on them i still say the  elves are nothing more then con artist telling young dumb poor uneducated city elves a  **** and bull story  about how great they were  if there were so great how come they got crush by the humans the  claimed there were better then just my two cents

[LobselVith8]

I don't think most religions are actually outlawed by the Chantry- the Stone/Ancestors definitely isn't, don't think the Qun or the Old Gods or the Chasind religions are either. Just the Creators, which may be a result of the elves in the Dales killing missionaries.

 

Anders references that he would be killed if someone saw him wearing the Tevinter Amulet ("Tevinter Amulet"), and the elven historical accounts (from the city elves and the Dalish) that mention missionaries trespassing into sovereign territory (as the Chantry account doesn't address them) read that the missionaries were kicked out of the Dales, not murdered; the conflicting historical accounts also provide contradicting information about the inception of the war with the Dales.

 

The Chantry claims the elves started the war by attacking Red Crossing, while the elves claim the Chantry started the war by invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert; it's also the reason the elven Warden can verbally condemn the Chantry.

[Notshauna]

True tyrants aren't going about reveling in depravity, they perform mundane kindnesses to get people on their side. Be it supporting the lower class (while building reliance), constructing roads or building an army, tyrants will always turn it into a way to protect you, help you. The Chantry is building the largest fighting force in Thedas next to the Qunari, controlling the trade of a rare and powerful mineral, rule the largest number of mages in Thedas (and the most skilled barring Tevinter) and have a role in the politics of a great many nations. The Chantry is always considering their next step, how they'll deal with the heretics (which is everyone who doesn't worship what they do) and the only difference between them and the Qunari is that they attempt to hide it.

[Notshauna]

It's worth noting that the Exalted March against the Dales was only declared after the elves invaded Orlais. They brought their fate on themselves.

The elves disagree with this statement, and I'm inclined to believe them, why would they start a war with what was ostensibly the humans, when the lost a war with far greater resources.

[Kieran G.]

It's worth noting that the Exalted March against the Dales was only declared after the elves invaded Orlais. They brought their fate on themselves.

Other nations didn't even join the exalted march until the elves sacked Val Royeaux. 

 

And the Chantry is completely needed in the world of Thedas, they are the only organization that are able to create neutral peace talks and attempt to maintain peace, not just in inquisition but many times the Chantry of Orlais has made summits for peace. the Chantry is inherently good. its the people in it who are sometimes evil. and you can not blame the Chantry for the Templars actions, the Chantry only has oversight over the Templar, they don't have direct control, and that's why the high seeker(blanking on his name) was able to null and void the Nevaran Accord. The chantry aren't the bad guys.

[Kieran G.]

The elves disagree with this statement, and I'm inclined to believe them, why would they start a war with what was ostensibly the humans, when the lost a war with far greater resources.

Because the elves are just as racist and just as cruel. Elves are not some noble race. They are just like humans except they aren't in power.

[DiscoGhost]

the chantry and very comparable to the renaissance catholic church... ill leave that one to interpretation as to if people think thats good or bad... 

[Notshauna]

Because the elves are just as racist and just as cruel. Elves are not some noble race. They are just like humans except they aren't in power.

I have no illusions of elvish inherent nobility, I just find it unlikely to believe the Dalish were foolish enough to try and fight all of humanity, when they the elves have gotten much weaker since Arlathan and humanity has gotten much stronger.

[X Equestris]

The elves disagree with this statement, and I'm inclined to believe them, why would they start a war with what was ostensibly the humans, when the lost a war with far greater resources.

I'm not saying the Chantry was in the right, but it is fact that the elves invaded Orlais.

[Kieran G.]

I have no illusions of elvish inherent nobility, I just find it unlikely to believe the Dalish were foolish enough to try and fight all of humanity, when they the elves have gotten much weaker since Arlathan and humanity has gotten much stronger

Well Olais would have lost the war if not supported by the free cities. a day after Orlais signed a declaration of war Val Royeaux was under siege by elven troops but they only lost the war because Orlesian(and allied) troops crossed the waking sea and burned Halamshiral. I believe the humans did make the elves seem worse then they were but elves (just like human) inherently distrust eachother and disdain each other because of the history with Tevinter.

[Peer of the Empire]

Let the Chant be sung from the Four Corners of the World

[Shadow Fox]

Oh goody another thread to argue about mages and elves.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The Chantry are every bit as corrupt and power hungry as any other organisation in Thedas. They are just bigger hypocrites because they attempt to justify their accumulation of power and wealth on the basis of some sort of divine mandate. They addict their own people to a poisonous drug that will eventually kill them, they defy their own core principles by creating and using phylacteries, and they threaten war on anyone who dares to call them out for their political interference or who interferes in their interests. They are a political and military player in the politics of Thedas, which makes them fair game. The sooner the Chantry ceases to be a political and military force in Thedas the better. Let them Chant all they want, but take away their power and their armies.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If chantry was doing good work i wouldn't have to fix their ****.

[Daerog]

If chantry was doing good work i wouldn't have to fix their ****.

 

Well, good in a morality point of view, not good as in efficient and ordered.

 

Anyway, there are points of criticism for the Chantry (which people like to exaggerate with misusing terms like "slavery" by applying it to the Circle), but there are also many good points. 

 

Same can be said for the other religions.

 

Overall, I think the Chantry is good. I like the Imperial Chantry a little more at this time, although I don't care much for Tevinter culture. They still have an operating Circle that mages see as a privilage (probably helps with attendance, maybe fewer apostates), it would be better if they actually had real Templars, but that is where their culture interferes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well, good in a morality point of view, not good as in efficient and ordered.

 

Anyway, there are points of criticism for the Chantry (which people like to exaggerate with misusing terms like "slavery" by applying it to the Circle), but there are also many good points. 

 

Same can be said for the other religions.

 

Overall, I think the Chantry is good. I like the Imperial Chantry a little more at this time, although I don't care much for Tevinter culture. They still have an operating Circle that mages see as a privilage (probably helps with attendance, maybe fewer apostates), it would be better if they actually had real Templars, but that is where their culture interferes.

 

Morality is your own thing so it can't be said if chantry is good or not they do a lot questionable things in name of control and still they suck at it so well rather poor example of "end justifies the means".

 

If you want reason why it sucks well it is hypocritical and ineffective and when it comes to "moral side" as i said they did and do a lot questionable things.

[movieguyabw]

I think the game does a really good job of leaving everything up to interpretation.  If you feel the Chantry does good work that's great.  It just means when the series eventually concludes your worldstate is going to look radically different from any of ours who feel differently.  I doubt any outcome will be ideal, just as I doubt that any will be a fail-state.

 

My personal issue with the Chantry comes from the very first impression I had of them - Mage Origin, not even a minute in you're told by the Templars you have to confront a demon and succeed, or be executed on the spot.  You are given next to no context prior to this, and it's a very jarring start which immediately informs a mage player the nature of their relationship with the Templars.  At a whim the Templars, with the blessing of the Chantry, can kill you - and no one will lift a finger to stop it.

 

Granted, this all becomes much more complicated once you start learning more about the lore - however I've said it in another thread on this subject; first impressions are everything.  There's a reason my mage character was very anti-Chantry, and it had nothing to do with my own feelings about any RL religion.  It had everything to do with how the Chant portrayed mages as almost subhuman things that needed to be locked away from the rest of society; and if believed to be consorting with demons should be put to death.

[Cainhurst Crow]

True tyrants aren't going about reveling in depravity, they perform mundane kindnesses to get people on their side. Be it supporting the lower class (while building reliance), constructing roads or building an army, tyrants will always turn it into a way to protect you, help you. The Chantry is building the largest fighting force in Thedas next to the Qunari, controlling the trade of a rare and powerful mineral, rule the largest number of mages in Thedas (and the most skilled barring Tevinter) and have a role in the politics of a great many nations. The Chantry is always considering their next step, how they'll deal with the heretics (which is everyone who doesn't worship what they do) and the only difference between them and the Qunari is that they attempt to hide it.

Are they any more tyrannical then the nobles, who imprison without warrant, put to death who they choose, tax without represenation, and even practice Droit du seigneur? Any more dictatorial then the imperial chantry, which enforces a system of slavery and subjugation openly and without fear or repercussion? Any more facist then the qunari, who attempt to hide their methods behind the myth that it is best for everyone and enforce the myth at the tip of a blade?

 

I think its time to wake up to the truth of thedas. Every option is bad, but at least the chantry does things to help the people regularly, unlike everyone else in thedas whose policy is to say "**** you" in so many different ways.