1391 réponses à ce sujet

[TTTX]

If not mages elves still would be crushed as humans are superior to them as we know because of many examples.Besides you don't have even info what means andraste used against as it is said she used "maker wrath" or super powerful magic that even tevinter couldn't handle so well...

one example and that's the Dales quite frankly we don't know enough about the time when Eleves rules so it's hard to accurately know what could have happen back then if things had been different, the sun destroyed the crops according to DA lore it just made things easier for Andraste to make a rebellion.

 

 

No, I have to agree with TKS. Centuries of Blights have done many worse crimes than Tevinter in all its history. The Imperium is a horrible place to live in, and the Imperium of old even more, but that's still much better than extinction by darkspawn.

Some things are worse then death being a slave is on of them.

 

Besides there is like what 2 blights left? if the Chantry is to be believed.

 

 

They have magic though, That more than makes up for a few "personality flaws"

tell that to the slaves.

[wcholcombe]

Food, educated, sheltered ad whatnot is not paid by any stretch of the imagination. The Chantry took away the mages' ability to do these things themselves therefore providing them automatically is the very least the Chantry should do. By taking away the prisoners ability to look after themselves the Chantry must assume responsibility for the care and wellbeing for its prisoners. Its why real life prisons have to provide free medical care for the inmates because its the state/prison's responsibility to do so. It's not pay. Its not gold that mages can sped on what they want.

 

Ad most of the people you cite as being able to leave are mages of rank ad must obtain special permission to leave and they must return to captivity at the allotted time or be hunted down. Privileges aren't freedom or given rights.

So by your definition Mikoto, are professional soldiers also slaves?  Their food, clothing, and housing are provided along with training and education and they too must recieve special permission to leave the base and return by a certain time or they are considered Awol.  Currently soldiers choose to be in the military, but previously in the states we had mandatory drafts requiring service.

 

Also, the mages are obviously paid, or else they wouldn't be able to buy the personal items they have.  Plus, Rhys refers to traveling to Tevinter with his master mage without any templars accompanying them and him having free reign to run around as he wished.  If the circles were truly as despotic their entire existance as they have be portrayed recently, than there would be no way in the Makers green thedas that a master mage and his apprentice would be allowed to travel and live on official circle/chantry business in the Tevinter imperium without templars to keep them under wraps.  Btw Rhys' comments about being able to leave and go into town didn't seem to indicate that it was limited to his rank.

 

Also, it is mentioned several times in Masked empire that the first enchanter at one of the circles routinely throws banquets for nobility in Orlais that outshine the banquets of the empress and that this 1st enchanter bestows gifts unto the nobles who attend.  Obviously the mages have property and have money. 

 

Now, do I agree that it is unfortunate that the mages live as they do within the circles? Yes.  Do I feel they are necessary? Yes.  Mages present a threat far great then any other individual does.  The personal experience the peasants have of mages burning down homes and such isn't the fault of the chantry. It is the reaction of an uneducated populace to occurrences that they are unable to explain, and how do uneducated illiterates respond to things that frighten them??? Violently.  The circle protect both the mages and the populace. Is it ideal for all, no. But it is hardly the goulag style life many picture it to be.

[TTTX]

So by your definition Mikoto, are professional soldiers also slaves?  Their food, clothing, and housing are provided along with training and education and they too must recieve special permission to leave the base and return by a certain time or they are considered Awol.  Currently soldiers choose to be in the military, but previously in the states we had mandatory drafts requiring service.

 

Also, the mages are obviously paid, or else they wouldn't be able to buy the personal items they have.  Plus, Rhys refers to traveling to Tevinter with his master mage without any templars accompanying them and him having free reign to run around as he wished.  If the circles were truly as despotic their entire existance as they have be portrayed recently, than there would be no way in the Makers green thedas that a master mage and his apprentice would be allowed to travel and live on official circle/chantry business in the Tevinter imperium without templars to keep them under wraps.  Btw Rhys' comments about being able to leave and go into town didn't seem to indicate that it was limited to his rank.

 

Also, it is mentioned several times in Masked empire that the first enchanter at one of the circles routinely throws banquets for nobility in Orlais that outshine the banquets of the empress and that this 1st enchanter bestows gifts unto the nobles who attend.  Obviously the mages have property and have money. 

 

Now, do I agree that it is unfortunate that the mages live as they do within the circles? Yes.  Do I feel they are necessary? Yes.  Mages present a threat far great then any other individual does.  The personal experience the peasants have of mages burning down homes and such isn't the fault of the chantry. It is the reaction of an uneducated populace to occurrences that they are unable to explain, and how do uneducated illiterates respond to things that frighten them??? Violently.  The circle protect both the mages and the populace. Is it ideal for all, no. But it is hardly the goulag style life many picture it to be.

The circle serves also a protection for mages themselves as farmers are not above killing mage people for a bad harvest and or simple try to kill their own kids because they have magic, just to name a few examples.

[wcholcombe]

What an outrageous and deluded distortion of the facts. The elves had culture, homes and identity in the Dales before the Chantry came along on its Exalted March (because it is fundamentally intolerant of any civilisation it does not control) to conquer them because they would not convert. The Chantry destroyed an entire civilisation and did everything in their power to erase the elves language and culture and reduced them to little more than serfs and the elves should be grateful?! They took everything from the elves, who only ever wanted to be left alone, and then threw them a few scraps so they weren't too much of an inconvenience. The Chantry cannot claim any kind of moral high ground, they engaged in cultural genocide.

Point of correction here: It is stated plainly in various sources that the chantry didn't become involved until the dalish sacked Val Royeux.  It isn't like they marched in just because they wouldn't convert.  If it was so plain a case as that, why haven't they forcibly converted the dwarves?  They haven't once tried, even the surface dwarves are allowed to operate as they wish. Kirkwall and the Freemarches are considered to be more conservative and pro chantry then even Orlais(source is Masked Empire), yet no attempts are made or seen to convert the rather large dwarf presence in Kirkwall.

[TheKomandorShepard]

one example and that's the Dales quite frankly we don't know enough about the time when Eleves rules so it's hard to accurately know what could have happen back then if things had been different, the sun destroyed the crops according to DA lore it just made things easier for Andraste to make a rebellion.

 

No dales are only 1 example pretty much we can see that by centuries of human control over elves and they can't do anything about that.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

If it was so plain a case as that, why haven't they forcibly converted the dwarves? 

I take a guess but maybe they didn't since they are surface dwarf . And since they can't spread the chantry teaching taught in Ozmmar maybe that is why . Or maybe since the Dwarf of ozmmar supply them in Lirium , they taugh it is better not to try anything with the surface dwarf since even though they are outcast , they are a line of trade between the surface and Ozmmar . Again it is just a guess . 

[wcholcombe]

One of most unrelated and pointless examples ever made in this forum.

You DO NOT get addicted to professional sports and its NOT GUARANTEED to harm you like Lyrium. If you paid attention to codex and templars in front of Denerim chantry you'd realize that even blue lyrium will start to harm the mind eventually, starting from short memory loss and leading to insanity.

Thank you for completely missing the entire point of my using it as an example.  The point is that both knowingly engage in behavior that has harmful and dibilitating effects. 

 

I am a big football fan, played it in jr. high and high school,  but you are kidding yourself if you think professional football players are not all harmed by playing.  From severe injury and head trauma to walking around like a 60 year old man in your mid 40s, professional football players suffer extreme debillitating effect for playing the game.  They are aware of this. They admit that they know it, just as they know statistics show they will have a shortened life span vs. people who never played NFL football and they play anyway just as the templars accept the sacrifice.

 

Yes, I am well aware that blue lyrium affect templars. They are also well aware of this sacrifice they take.  Have you read Asunder?  The templars know entirely what they are getting into, and the affects take an extremely long time to show up. Gregoire in DAO has been a templar for a very long time, as has Lambert in Asunder, it isn't a case of you becoming addled in a few years, it takes decades.

 

Also, they are apparently allowed to retire as Evangeline says in Asunder when her father died and she had the opportunity to inherit her family estate. She turned it down because she was committed to being a templar and didn't want to play the game of marrying and being a noble in orlais. At no point in that discussion does she say her lyrium addiction would have prevented her, in fact she says that her commander at the time was surprised she didn't choose to inherit.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

Now, do I agree that it is unfortunate that the mages live as they do within the circles? Yes. Do I feel they are necessary? Yes. Mages present a threat far great then any other individual does. The personal experience the peasants have of mages burning down homes and such isn't the fault of the chantry. It is the reaction of an uneducated populace to occurrences that they are unable to explain, and how do uneducated illiterates respond to things that frighten them??? Violently. The circle protect both the mages and the populace. Is it ideal for all, no. But it is hardly the goulag style life many picture it to be.

I still believe it is not right . the mage in the circle have no privacy at all . And they tip toe with Templar watching them all the time . Also , it does feel like the present day Mages are being punished not because Magic is a Sin or Dangerous . But because of the past , and that is in my opinion not better then the castless system . 

If you wish to avoid the past mistake , you find better way then locking up the mages and oppress them and corner them . For that lead only to disaster . 

And the justification of a Mage is a bigger threath . I disagree . I say it before and I say it again : Give ANY MEN an army and ressources and he will do just as much harm . Yes you won't see Abomination , yes a normal human won't tear the precious veil . 

But honestly ? a normal man can tear a normal reality and it is just as nightmarish . 

[TTTX]

No dales are only 1 example pretty much we can see that by centuries of human control over elves and they can't do anything about that.

You do realize that most eleves don't have access proper weapons and armor, just look like what the eleves in the alianage had to fight with in DA:O 3-4 bows and no armor, the only one who have weapons and armor are the Dalish but they are to few in numbers to do much, not to mention poorly organized.

[Killdren88]

Considering they only exist at all because of Chantry Mercy?

 

Yes.

So bend knee to the Chantry out of fear then?

[TheJediSaint]

So bend knee to the Chantry out of fear then?

Out of fear of Master Warder's divine power, yes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You do realize that most eleves don't have access proper weapons and armor, just look like what the eleves in the alianage had to fight with in DA:O 3-4 bows and no armor, the only one who have weapons and armor are the Dalish but they are to few in numbers to do much, not to mention poorly organized.

Even if they had weapon and armor like they had in dales they still wouldn't have any chance against humans hah even 1 nation pretty much their entire country was crushed solely by orlais after they had to handle blight i would say on ease.
 .

[wcholcombe]

 

And the Exalted Marches I'm talking about are discussed right in the History of the Chantry codex entries. The first exalted march is considered Andraste's against the Imperium, and the second ones were Drakon using the devout to help him conquer all the neighboring city states to form the nation of Orlais in -15 Ancient through -3 Ancient, with the first Divine being appointed in the beginning of the Divine Age. 

http://dragonage.wik...Exalted_Marches

 

Exalted marches by the chantry are listed on that link. No mention is ever made of conquering surrounding neighbor states as being exalted marches.

 

They supported the legitimate government of the area. Orlais had conquered Ferelden. The war was over.  You had a rebel group, but that is hardly a legitimate government.  You also had chantry priests who served in the rebellion, Mother Ailis.

 

 

How exactly phylacteries work I have no clue, but I also don't consider the on the same plane as blood magic. Phylacteries are inert and don't actually affect anyone, they just allow you to be tracked.

 

Evangeline in Asunder says the templars are hypocrites because the phylacteries, using a mages blood, is a form of blood magic. David Gaider said that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn says that his ritual to discover the Lights of Arlathan, using Dalish blood as a component, would be seen as a grey area because although the blood wasn't powering the spell, it was still used in it. Heck, the Tome of the Mortal Vessel item description outright says that there are many who ban anatomical practices because it is considered blood magic because it requires studying the body, which has blood. 

 

Blood magic is using blood as a power source, or as a component in a magical ritual or spell. The Grey Warden joining is blood magic because of its use of archdemon and darkspawn blood. The Reaver ritual is blood magic because of its use of dragon blood. Phylacteries are blood magic because of their use of mages blood. 

 

Blood magic isn't just controlling people's minds or amplifying existing spells. It's simply the use of blood in the spell or ritual in and of itself. Often used for dark and nefarious deeds, but that's really all it is. 

 

It is somewhat hypocritical yes, but it is also more the spirit of the rules against blood magic. It isn't the fact that blood is used, it is what the blood magic can do.  There is no danger presented by the phylacteries.

 

Well, a divine is divine representation of Andraste on earth, so therefore if they choose to remove verses from the chant they are acting in the will of Andraste and know better then us mere mortals.

 

So if we follow this logic, Justinia V is the divine representation of Andraste, and had every right to try and help mages and Lambert and the Seekers/Templars should've just sucked it up because they are mere mortals? And the Divine who is elected by the Grand Clerics, those same Grand Clerics never, ever have any second thoughts if the Divine starts saying things they disapprove of?

 

I noticed you didn't actually address my point on the hypocrisy of the Chantry as an institution when it comes to its beliefs in the Chant. 

BTW yes. That is why I feel that Justinia is well within her rights to modernize and reform the chantry in Asunder. I consider Lamberts actions a high betrayal of his faith and the fact that the templars are largely populated by ones such as Lambert as opposed to the more open minded ones we have encountered is another failing.  This divinity is my response to your comments about the chant. If a divine is considered divine representation then she is completely able to deduce when a part of the chant is no longer needed.

 

Let me be clear Dragon, I am not arguing the chantry is perfect, I just find it hypocritical of gamers that it is held to a much higher standard then other groups that commit things just as bad or worse in DA.  We tend to find a narrative and stick to it based off our experiences in the games presented. I blame DA2 for a lot of this. But I do find it funny how the Dalish and Dwarves are considered saints along with Ferelden, when all three groups are and do have their issues which are just as big and bad as the Qunari, Chantry, Imperium, or Orlais.

 

[wcholcombe]

Exactly.  The Red Templars seem to be nothing more than a hostile faction, and unless there is a sane, non-red lyrium user in charge, I don't think it's worth questioning or examining their motives too closely.  It's like trying to analyze the Illusive Man's motives in ME3

Spoiler

after you find out that he is indoctrinated.

Spoiler

Actually in one of the videos it looks like red templars are following orders from cullen

[wcholcombe]

That line of reasoning doesn't really make any sense. The premise of the Quickening is that the humans changed immortal elves having mortal lifespans like they do. Contact with Humans can't make them live even shorter lives. But what can reduce their lifespan to zero is contact with darkspawn. More likely the reason is that they didn't feel the need to risk their own to help foreigners. Which is the same reason everyone else has had for not intervening in Blights.

Yes and as we learned in Masked Empire, all ancient elves were never immortal.  The immortal elves were only the ones who could live in the fade, which were few, their slaves(ie other elves) weren't immortal.

[wcholcombe]

how long it would take when people will stop saying that people who wanted to destroy Orlais Chantry from all others Chantries of Maker(Nevarran, Anderfels, Tevinter, Rivaini) does not want to destroy it because of their believes in some **** in fade what is not exist in Thedas universe and majority of Thedas know about it

Since no one else responded to this, you do know that Nevarra, Anderfels, and Rivain chantries are the same as the Orlesian Chantry right?

 

Heck, the Anderfels are considered one of the most Chantry faithful countries in Thedas.

[MisterJB]

I meant what I said. Slavery.

Innacurate.

Trigger words make for poor arguments.

 

 

The mages don't have any rights.

Incorrect. The very existence of the Fraternities is the "freedom of association" being employed.

I could point out other rights but if you claim mages don't have any, then all I need to do is use one to prove you wrong.

 

 

They have their babies stolen by the Chantry at birth.

That is not inherently connected to slavery. A free woman with a mental disability may see her baby taken away while Tevinter slaves are permitted to raise their own because they are expected to serve the master in turn.

You can try to argue that it's bad or unnecessary but it is not inextricably connected to slavery and thus does not serve as an example of how mages are slaves.

 

They're locked up all their lives, guarded by drug addict zealots.

There are happenstances that can lead to people being locked up all their lives; for instance, a contagiou disease or an heinous crimes.

Therefore, to be imprisioned for life is not the equivalent of slavery.

 

They can be raped, beaten or made Traquil illegally with no repercussion.

If a policeman beats and rapes a citizen and manages to get away with it, does that make her a slave? Does it make every other citizen a slave?

Mages are in as much danger of being victims of violence as every other person in Thedas. Probably less since they are, at least, dangerous.

 

Also, it would be incorrect to claim there is no repercussion for Templars who abuse their power. While they can intimidate their victims into silence; much like any other guardsman; the very fact Ser Alrik ordered his cohorts to not let Meredith know about his actions means he feared repercussion. in Kirkwall, of all places.

http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter

 

There is nobody they can report abuses to.

Yes, there is. Anders speaks of how mages in Kirkwall were denied appearances at court which suggest this is a given right in other Circles in Thedas.

 

marriage is done rarely with special permission.

Yes, they are , arguably, prisioners. There is still a difference between that and a slave.

David Gaider will tell you as much. "Imprisonment, sure, but I'm not sure you can equate the mages to being slaves. Their life is not their own, but they are not servants to anyone."

http://forum.bioware...intended/page-9

 

They cannot  own businesses

Solivitus say Hi.

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Solivitus

 

mages are often called upon to serve nobles as healers, or "perform" at parties, and are called upon in times of war as living weapons.

By their own choice. In fact, Wynne attempted to create a civil war in "Asunder" in order to have the mages be called upon for assistance because it would grant them bargaining power.
Likewise, Gregoir directs us to speak to Irving if we wish the mages to assist with fighting the Darkspawn.

 

The mages are not forced to do anything; they do it because they have a vested interest in earning points with the rulers of men.

 

So, we can scratch "forced labor" of the list of your accusation.

 

Are they paid for ay of this? Can they buy their own clothes or tools or food or equipment as soldiers?

Yes. A Tranquil in DA2 will tell you that Orsino raised the prices of potions because he was trying to earn money for the Circle.

 

Where exactly do you think the money the Tranquil make goes to? David Gaider already confirmed it all goes to the Circle.

 

So, they work to provide for themselves just like everyone else. Ergo, not slavery.

 

And yes I know the Tranquil enchant and such for money but they are no longer mages. Yet they are still confined to serve the Circle/Chantry.

 

If they aren't confined, it isn't by the Chantry.

Remember that they play a great role providing for the mages. And you think they don't take measures to ensure there is a steady supply of Tranquil working for the Circles?

As David Gaider already confirmed, the money they make doesn't go to the Chantry.
 

In conclusion, you have no grounds to claim that the Circle is a form of slavery.

 

 

[Hellion Rex]

Yes and as we learned in Masked Empire, all ancient elves were never immortal.  The immortal elves were only the ones who could live in the fade, which were few, their slaves(ie other elves) weren't immortal.

And even then, they could still be killed, as several of their slaves proved.

[Hellion Rex]

 

Also, it would be incorrect to claim there is no repercussion for Templars who abuse their power. While they can intimidate their victims into silence; much like any other guardsman; the very fact Ser Alrik ordered his cohorts to not let Meredith know about his actions means he feared repercussion. in Kirkwall, of all places.

http://dragonage.wik..._Templar_Letter

Meredith may have been a hardass, but she was always true to her duty. I would have loved to see her annihilate Alrik if this information came to light.

[TTTX]

Even if they had weapon and armor like they had in dales they still wouldn't have any chance against humans hah even 1 nation pretty much their entire country was crushed solely by orlais after they had to handle blight i would say on ease.
 .

we actually don't the details on how Orlais won against the Dales for all we know it could be poor dumb luck that Orlais won, just because they won doesn't mean they are superior.

[wcholcombe]

do you know that there is many versions of Chant of light and even Orlais Chantry with their the most young version despire their effors was fail to get rid of all of them...especially like  orthodox one as in Tevinter who was the first one who since Hesarian spread religion in Maker in east and after to south

 

Nevarra, Tevinter have different Chantry...and Rivain(where is majority does not believe in Maker) and Anderfels despire some of their connection with Orlais(even Tevinter was have some connection with orlais chantry before they start to do ****) one have not influenced with Orlais doctrines

 

and if some forget there is many societies like avvars, chasind, dornaki and many others who live without any templars and chantry

 

the Thedas universe, history and nature is deny that Tempalrs is or was necessery

Again, Nevarra, Rivaini, and Anderfels are all part of the Orlesian Chantry.  Chantry is dominant religion in Nevarra, Rivain is split 3 ways, but all the nobility are Chantry, the ones who rule the country, and Anderfels is considered one of the most pro Chantry and religious countries in Thedas.

[TTTX]

Meredith may have been a hardass, but she was always true to her duty. I would have loved to see her annihilate Alrik if this information came to light.

At least until the red lyrium started messing with her mind.

[TheKomandorShepard]

we actually don't the details on how Orlais won against the Dales for all we know it could be poor dumb luck that Orlais won, just because they won doesn't mean they are superior.

eee no they crushed them so no it wasn't luck...

[X Equestris]

Since no one else responded to this, you do know that Nevarra, Anderfels, and Rivain chantries are the same as the Orlesian Chantry right?
 
Heck, the Anderfels are considered one of the most Chantry faithful countries in Thedas.

I responded. Didn't do any good, though. This person seems set on ignoring anything that conflicts with their view of the Chantry.

[TTTX]

eee no they crushed them so no it wasn't luck...

since we no real proof on how Orlais manage to beat the Dales the whole surprioty thing stays nothing more then a theory aside from breading between humans and eleves. Yeah they crushed them, when a country managed to take over another country they tend to crush them in order to make sure they have a really hard time rebelling.