1391 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

since we no real proof on how Orlais manage to beat the Dales the whole surprioty thing stays nothing more then a theory aside from breading between humans and eleves. Yeah they crushed them, when a country managed to take over another country they tend to crush them in order to make sure they have a really hard time rebelling.

As i said orlais crushed elves with ease pretty much elves didn't get far so it doesn't matter how it matters they did and no it wasn't luck and that was orlais after blight... says a lot.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Well this went off the rails quickly. XD

[raging_monkey]

Idk bout ease but definatly defeated. At the end of the day we can talk about who beat who, chanty is evil slavers grr. The chantry does equal good and bad , the rest is subjective

[Gervaise]

Orlais managed to beat the elves of the Dales because the Divine called an Exalted March and enlisted neighbouring countries to help.   Without this intervention the elves might well have taken Val Royeaux.   Also the elves possibly over reached themselves because I read that whilst they were marching on Val Royeaux, the opposition attacked and burnt Halamshiral.   Presumably they then started to advance on the elves' rear.     Also at some point the Dalish leadership (their nobles) decided to cut and run and left the rest to be killed, kill themselves or be captured.     Hence the reason why those elves who became the Dalish nomads (who fly the banners of Dalish nobility) had sufficient strength to be able to cross the Frostbacks and destroy the first barbarian clan they encountered.   Hardly the actions of a battered and bloodied army fleeing for their lives, where the more appropriate action would be to slip away quietly, not drawing attention to themselves.

 

I tend to feel that the ancestors of the current city elves were betrayed twice during the War of the Dales; by the humans in having their homeland taken away from them and by their own leadership in abandoning them to their fate.   It was a combination of the two that allowed the humans to crush the elves and reduce the majority of them to little better than slaves in terms of the way they are treated.    

 

Where people do follow the Chant and worship the Maker, the Chantry ought to ensure that they are treated fairly in accordance with the instructions of the Maker contained in the Chant.   In the case of the majority of peasants, but the elves in particular, the Chantry has failed to do its duty in this respect.  

[TTTX]

As i said orlais crushed elves with ease pretty much elves didn't get far so it doesn't matter how it matters they did and no it wasn't luck and that was orlais after blight... says a lot.

And yet the eleves managed to sack the capital of Orlais and the Dales is still the place with most eleves in it (compared to humans, Orlais might have destroyed the government, but eleves are still there) and judging by the events of Masked Empire the eleves might get their chance for second round of reclaiming what is theirs in DA:I.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And yet the eleves managed to sack the capital of Orlais and the Dales is still the place with most eleves in it (compared to humans, Orlais might have destroyed the government, but eleves are still there) and judging by the events of Masked Empire the eleves might get their chance for second round of reclaiming what is theirs in DA:I.

They didn't had it far in fact they went only through tiny part of orlais then they were crushed.Of course they are there because they spared them if they didn't well let's say we wouldn't have elven war or inq to pick.  

 

Heh most peoples arleady mocked their chances when they will go on war with orlais...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In the end the Dales were crushed but it was hardly with ease. The elves were winning the war decisively at first. That's the whole reason the Divine called the Exalted March in the first place. They captured a major strategically important city and were marching on the capital. Even after the Divine's call to arms the war took another 10 years to finish. During the course of which there were "many elven successes" according to WoT.

[LobselVith8]

As i said orlais crushed elves with ease pretty much elves didn't get far so it doesn't matter how it matters they did and no it wasn't luck and that was orlais after blight... says a lot.

 

The lore doesn't match up with this statement; it took years for the war to end, which indicates that it wasn't as one-sided as you claim. In fact, it's addressed that those who thought an easy victory would be achieved against the elves were wrong; the timeline reads: "Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen."

 

There's also Ariane mentioning the Circles in reference to the defeat of the Dales, which lead to the theft of some elven artifacts and tomes, explaining why Finn knows the elven word for 'Eluvian'.

[Br3admax]

So Chantry saves humankind again, and thus does good work. 

[TTTX]

They didn't had it far in fact they went only through tiny part of orlais then they were crushed.Of course they are there because they spared them if they didn't well let's say we wouldn't have elven war or inq to pick.

 

Heh most peoples arleady mocked their chances when they will go on war with orlais...

Chantry doesn't believe in extermination of people unlike you.

 

And yet Ferelden managed to throw out Orlais like the eleves they got crushed too, but they managed throw them out starting with nothing more then a few poorly trained and not armed poor people couple. Orlais is now in civil war, there is a mage templar war and a big hole in the sky, put in a eleven rebillion and Orlais should s*** themselves in their fancy pants.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So Chantry saves humankind again, and thus does good work. 

 

The Chantry: Putting those filthy elves in their place like a baws.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The lore doesn't match up with this statement; it took years for the war to end, which indicates that it wasn't as one-sided as you claim. In fact, it's addressed that those who thought an easy victory would be achieved against the elves were wrong; the timeline reads: "Orlais immediately went to war with the Dales but was initially surprised by the ferocity of the elven response. A quick Orlesian victory was not going to happen."

 

There's also Ariane mentioning the Circles in reference to the defeat of the Dales, which lead to the theft of some elven artifacts and tomes, explaining why Finn knows the elven word for 'Eluvian'.

Ferelden lasted for 20 years with orlais and still ferelden was rather weak country and yet they were crushed by orlais.Now see distance between capital and dales.They had some success at the beginning but they were crushed.Not to mention that orlais was after blight and that was young empire but i said that already.

 

?

 

Chantry doesn't believe in extermination of people unlike you.

 

And yet Ferelden managed to throw out Orlais like the eleves they got crushed too, but they managed throw them out starting with nothing more then a few poorly trained and not armed poor people couple. Orlais is now in civil war, there is a mage templar war and a big hole in the sky, put in a eleven rebillion and Orlais should s*** themselves in their fancy pants.

Sadly that 1 reason why they suck.

 

So what orlais is most powerful country ferelden have much bigger population than elves as they are humans and mage-templar war and big hole in the sky is in ferelden at least at the beginning and i doubt that civil war would weaken orlais to point that elves could handle orlais not mention that elves are divided and most of them don't have any training or weapon.

 

About ferelden i don't know reason why orlais lost so i won't comment on that but i want remind that ferelden live in constant danger of being invaded by orlais and only thing that prevented that was Celene.

[LobselVith8]

Ferelden lasted for 20 years with orlais and still ferelden was rather weak country and yet they were crushed by orlais.Now see distance between capital and dales.They had some success at the beginning but they were crushed.Not to mention that orlais was after blight and that was young empire but i said that already.

 

?

 

Orlais eventually defeating the Dales in a war that lasted years (and with the assistance of the Circle) doesn't mean that the Orlesian Empire "crushed elves with ease".

[TheKomandorShepard]

Orlais eventually defeating the Dales in a war that lasted years (and with the assistance of the Circle) doesn't mean that the Orlesian Empire "crushed elves with ease".

As i said ferelden took 20 years for orlais yet it was almost no match for them besides i doubt that elves didn't had help from mages read elven mages.

[Mistic]

 

And the Exalted Marches I'm talking about are discussed right in the History of the Chantry codex entries. The first exalted march is considered Andraste's against the Imperium, and the second ones were Drakon using the devout to help him conquer all the neighboring city states to form the nation of Orlais in -15 Ancient through -3 Ancient, with the first Divine being appointed in the beginning of the Divine Age. 

http://dragonage.wik...Exalted_Marches

 

Exalted marches by the chantry are listed on that link. No mention is ever made of conquering surrounding neighbor states as being exalted marches.

 

They supported the legitimate government of the area. Orlais had conquered Ferelden. The war was over.  You had a rebel group, but that is hardly a legitimate government.  You also had chantry priests who served in the rebellion, Mother Ailis.

 

Well, not really true. At least not true if the neighbor state or the legitimate government is the Tevinter Imperium.

 

Spoiler

Actually in one of the videos it looks like red templars are following orders from cullen

 

What? I thought I saw normal templars, not red templars

[TTTX]

Sadly that 1 reason why they suck.

 

So what orlais is most powerful country ferelden have much bigger population than elves as they are humans and mage-templar war and big hole in the sky is in ferelden at least at the beginning and i doubt that civil war would weaken orlais to point that elves could handle orlais not mention that elves are divided and most of them don't have any training or weapon.

 

About ferelden i don't know reason why orlais lost so i won't comment on that but i want remind that ferelden live in constant danger of being invaded by orlais and only thing that prevented that was Celene.

according to you.

 

no they are not if they were they wouldn't fear making invasions into the free marches or Ferelden because they know they might have the pointiest swords and strongest armies, but that doesn't guarantee a victory there more to war then numbers, equipment, you also need lines where you can get medicine food and ammo and the like you also need capable leaders for your armies or else there is a good chance for defeat. Right now Orlais is distracted and doesn't have a united army (a split army is easier to take down) which can give the eleves time to get together and be able to take back the Dales and if they align themselves with the Inquisition they would be able to keep it this time around.

 

Even Celene wanted to invade before and during DA:O however she changed her mind after Ferelden managed to win over the blight, Ferelden would fall if Orlais invaded, but they would kick Orlais out once again because Ferelden never gives up.

[Pierce Miller]

one example and that's the Dales quite frankly we don't know enough about the time when Eleves rules so it's hard to accurately know what could have happen back then if things had been different, the sun destroyed the crops according to DA lore it just made things easier for Andraste to make a rebellion.

 

 

Some things are worse then death being a slave is on of them.

 

Besides there is like what 2 blights left? if the Chantry is to be believed.

 

 

tell that to the slaves.

The slaves in Tevinter agree, they actively try to get their children to be born with magical talent.

[TheKomandorShepard]

according to you.

 

no they are not if they were they wouldn't fear making invasions into the free marches or Ferelden because they know they might have the pointiest swords and strongest armies, but that doesn't guarantee a victory there more to war then numbers, equipment, you also need lines where you can get medicine food and ammo and the like you also need capable leaders for your armies or else there is a good chance for defeat. Right now Orlais is distracted and doesn't have a united army (a split army is easier to take down) which can give the eleves time to get together and be able to take back the Dales and if they align themselves with the Inquisition they would be able to keep it this time around.

 

Even Celene wanted to invade before and during DA:O however she changed her mind after Ferelden managed to win over the blight, Ferelden would fall if Orlais invaded, but they would kick Orlais out once again because Ferelden never gives up.

Nope according to that they can handle control over mages and i have fix mess their incompetence allows very often.

As it was said by another users if elves will be actul threat for orlais during civil war then orlais will unite and crush them and i doubt that power of fantasy will help them in universe like da...

Only scenario i can see it happen is with Inquisition and still they will lose after very quickly it unless inq will intentionally in some way damage orlais even more and that would require a lot.

[MisterJB]

Orlais managed to beat the elves of the Dales because the Divine called an Exalted March and enlisted neighbouring countries to help.

 

Not true, actually.

World of Thedas page 13:

"The Exalted March of the Dales began in 2:10 Glory after the elves of the Dales captured the Orlesian city of Montsimmard and marched on Val Royeaux. The Chantry called for war against the elves. It became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."

 

 

I tend to feel that the ancestors of the current city elves were betrayed twice during the War of the Dales; by the humans in having their homeland taken away from them

If the humans somehow have an obligation towards keeping the Dales independent, shouldn't the elves have an obligation to not attack human cities?

[MisterJB]

A question for the elven advocates: what do you think would have happened had the Dales won?

Don't you think they would have taken the homeland of the orlesians away? Would they even have been allowed to exist in Alienages? I doubt it considering how the Dales was strictly elven only.

And what about Tevinter? Who would have curtailed its expansion?

[DKJaigen]

A question for the elven advocates: what do you think would have happened had the Dales won?

Don't you think they would have taken the homeland of the orlesians away? Would they even have been allowed to exist in Alienages? I doubt it considering how the Dales was strictly elven only.

And what about Tevinter? Who would have curtailed its expansion?

 

 

Militarily that makes no sense. the dalish would be spread to thin if they tried to overtake all of orlais. if the war was won then at best they would demand severe reparations and at worse make  Orlais a vassal and perhaps take some important territory. And to be honest i like the tevinters a lot more then the orlais.

[TTTX]

Nope according to that they can handle control over mages and i have fix mess their incompetence allows very often.

As it was said by another users if elves will be actul threat for orlais during civil war then orlais will unite and crush them and i doubt that power of fantasy will help them in universe like da...

Only scenario i can see it happen is with Inquisition and still they will lose after very quickly it unless inq will intentionally in some way damage orlais even more and that would require a lot.

Don't even go there, I don't want to hear it.

With two leaders who wants the other dead, getting them to work together and not betray the other, it's going to take a small miracle.

it takes more then just a big army to win, just ask USA (Vietnam) or England (USA).

 

The slaves in Tevinter agree, they actively try to get their children to be born with magical talent.

what other choice do they have?

 

they can rebel, but that means they die, they can work until death comes in some form or simple try to get a mage child but even that doesn't guarantee a raise in Tevinter mages in Tevinter isn't above enslaving their own.

 

 

Militarily that makes no sense. the dalish would be spread to thin if they tried to overtake all of orlais. if the war was won then at best they would l demand severe reparations and at worse make  Orlais a vassal and perhaps take some important territory. And to be honest like the tevinters a lot more then the orlais.

pretty much this.

[LobselVith8]

Not true, actually.

World of Thedas page 13:

"The Exalted March of the Dales began in 2:10 Glory after the elves of the Dales captured the Orlesian city of Montsimmard and marched on Val Royeaux. The Chantry called for war against the elves. It became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. Orlais was the only nation to provide troops."

 

WoT changed it, to be more precise, as previous information mentioned other nations getting involved in the Exalted March of the Dales. Similar to how Alistair's comments about lyrium were changed post-Origins.

 

If the humans somehow have an obligation towards keeping the Dales independent, shouldn't the elves have an obligation to not attack human cities?

 

Gervaise said she felt the humans betrayed the elves; she might have been addressing the Dalish or City elf historical accounts about the inception of the war, with both accounts reading that humans started the war because the elves wouldn't convert.

[Br3admax]

The Chantry: Putting those filthy elves in their place like a baws.

Nah it' only acceptable to be a genocidal d-bag if you're NOT human. If you are human, it's racist, and wrong, and evil, and corrupt, and worthy of being blown up by homicidal maniacs and demons. 

[MisterJB]

Gervaise said she felt the humans betrayed the elves; she might have been addressing the Dalish or City elf historical accounts about the inception of the war, with both accounts reading that humans started the war because the elves wouldn't convert.

Hum...no. Gervaise specifically mentioned she felt the elves were betrayed because they lost their homeland.