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[Hellion Rex]

If one views the Dales as a gift for the elven contribution against Imperium, that's one possible explanation as to why someone might see it as a betrayal for humanity to take away their homeland. And this has certainly been brought up in the elven threads.

But that was Andraste's sons who gave them the Dales, definitely not Orlais. Just because the Prophet's sons gave it to the elves doesn't make it betrayal when an unaffiliated country comes to take it.

 

It was an act of war, yes, but not a betrayal.

[MisterJB]

If one views the Dales as a gift for the elven contribution against Imperium, that's one possible explanation as to why someone might see it as a betrayal for humanity to take away their homeland. And this has certainly been brought up in the elven threads.

Ah, but that was an agreement made centuries ago by humans and elves who are long since dead when relations between the two races were much different.

If I give you a car but then we never speak to or see each other again and then my greatgrandson steals it from your greatgrandson is that a betrayal?

 

It was the elves who decided to isolate themselves and cut all relations with humanity. Therefore, humanity had no obligation towards the elves.

[TheJediSaint]

If a mother takes a gift back from a recalcitrant child, is she betraying that child?

[Master Warder Z_]

I have a wonderful idea for what do with the dales and it involves the Chantry, the entire province should be gifted to the Templar order.

 

Give them a few training centers, armories and other logistical and command based facilities outside of the circle and their own scant few fortresses.

 

The region benefits from having a steady influx of warriors to secure it, the order prospers and likely can recruit locally to a heavy extent, and of course it provides an excellent bulwark for Orlais.

 

To cut into the heartlands of Orlais, you have to cut through the holy warriors of the Chantry, you basically have to declare war on the Chantry to attack Orlais from the east.

 

It's brilliant.

[LobselVith8]

Ah, but that was an agreement made centuries ago by humans and elves who are long since dead when relations between the two races were much different.

If I give you a car but then we never speak to or see each other again and then my greatgrandson steals it from your greatgrandson is that a betrayal?

 

It was the elves who decided to isolate themselves and cut all relations with humanity. Therefore, humanity had no obligation towards the elves.

 

Oh, I see. You want to debate how someone else felt about the loss of the Dales, by arguing with me about a hypothetical I presented as one possible explanation. And for what purpose would this serve, aside from you and I disagreeing? I ask because you and I have discussed this before, and considering your recent post on the last page, you made it clear you don't like redundancy.

[MisterJB]

Who said anything about discussing with you?
I said I was "questioning the feelings that the elves were betrayed" that is to say, I was arguing the very idea.

You're free to participate or not.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I have a wonderful idea for what do with the dales and it involves the Chantry, the entire province should be gifted to the Templar order.

 

Give them a few training centers, armories and other logistical and command based facilities outside of the circle and their own scant few fortresses.

 

The region benefits from having a steady influx of warriors to secure it, the order prospers and likely can recruit locally to a heavy extent, and of course it provides an excellent bulwark for Orlais.

 

To cut into the heartlands of Orlais, you have to cut through the holy warriors of the Chantry, you basically have to declare war on the Chantry to attack Orlais from the east.

 

It's brilliant.

 

Excellent! Brilliant! This is the best idea I have heard to settle the Dales question ever!

[LobselVith8]

Who said anything about discussing with you?
I said I was "questioning the feelings that the elves were betrayed" that is to say, I was arguing the very idea.

You're free to participate or not.

 

So you want to engage Gervaise in a debate about her feelings on the matter?

[Daerog]

I like the idea of making the Dales an elven vassal state. Have the elves deal with the Avvars and any possible Fereldan issues, and let the elves have a nation to call theirs at the same time, win-win.

 

I don't mean to shift this thread into an elvish debate, though, so...

 

The Chantry, ya, it does stuff, mothers and Templars try to help in alienages and villages. They've done some facepalm-worthy things, like Shartan's verses being removed. Don't know a whole lot of their theology, not sure how in depth the developers got in that... would prefer to learn more about the Imperial Chantry at this time though. We can talk about how evil Tevinter is, but if we are separating the actions of Orlais and other Thedosian nations from the actions of the Chantry, should do the same with the Imperial Chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well when discussing the Imperial Chantry, the first thing you must discuss is how its connected directly to the Senate and Circle of Magi.

 

The Black Divine is also the Grand Enchanter, and usually a member of the Senate.

 

People gripe about the White Chantry interfering in Politics? The Black Chantry is just politics.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Master Warder Z:  And there's every indication that Tevinter is far crueler to it's mage class.

 

I suppose it's one of those:  It's okay if it's our own kind enslaving us.

[Cainhurst Crow]

@Master Warder Z:  And there's every indication that Tevinter is far crueler to it's mage class.

 

I suppose it's one of those:  It's okay if it's our own kind enslaving us.

 

The imperium still has templars and still allows for the right of annulment, so if any mage supporters wanted to be like "a society run by mages would be less cruel then the current system", there's your answer to that right there.

[TheJediSaint]

The imperium still has templars and still allows for the right of annulment, so if any mage supporters wanted to be like "a society run by mages would be less cruel then the current system", there's your answer to that right there.

It's been implied that the Rite of Tranquility is used by the Magisters to deal with troublesome mages.

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheJediSaint:  That's what it's used for in other lands too.

[Daerog]

Well when discussing the Imperial Chantry, the first thing you must discuss is how its connected directly to the Senate and Circle of Magi.

 

The Black Divine is also the Grand Enchanter, and usually a member of the Senate.

 

People gripe about the White Chantry interfering in Politics? The Black Chantry is just politics.

 

Well, it's a bit unfair to say it is "just politics," although it is involved in the politics. The politics is not all Chantry, either. The Archon is not chosen from the Senate, and the Senate is not just the Chantry. That one Black Divine that Lambert talked about was trying to do well, but got caught up in the politics and did blood magic, ya, so there is some hypocrisy with the Imperial Chantry, but of course that doesn't mean all of the Chantry is like that.

 

The orphanages and helpful Templars are cheered in Thedas, and the Imperial Chantry does good work as well. It's true that the elitist culture Tevinter has does harm the PR of the Imperial Chantry, but that is like human racism giving the regular Chantry a bad name as well when dealing with the elves.

 

Perhaps this thread can also debate the possible good works of the Imperial Chantry as well.

 

Edit: After all, their most revered Disciple of Andraste was one who spoke for (or at least is credited to speak for) compassion and forgiveness.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Daerog:  The problem with the Imperial Chantry is that it MUST also sanction eugenics amongst the Magisters. 

 

Meaning that it makes very hard statements about the genetic purity of the lines of Magisters.

 

And it boggles the mind how people some can simply excuse that away when their very argument is: "The Chantry hurts my feelings because they say I'm born yucky."

[TheJediSaint]

Perhaps this thread can also debate the possible good works of the Imperial Chantry as well.

Unfortunately, we don't really know that much about the Imperial Chantry.  Maybe Dorian will have more information about it?

[Master Warder Z_]

Unfortunately, we don't really know that much about the Imperial Chantry.  Maybe Dorian will have more information about it?

 

<.<

 

Maybe.

 

But i have a feeling he will be too busy bathing in the blood of children and griping about how the Imperium is on the decline against heathen oxmen to really mention much of the culture he is supposedly "against".

 

I mean Fenris made it plain, that if you don't play the game there, you die, its akin to the game of intrigue in Orlais.

[TheJediSaint]

<.<

 

Maybe.

 

But i have a feeling he will be too busy bathing in the blood of children and griping about how the Imperium is on the decline against heathen oxmen to really mention much of the culture he is supposedly "against".

 

I mean Fenris made it plain, that if you don't play the game there, you die, its akin to the game of intrigue in Orlais.

Reading Dorian's bio, I got the impression he left Tevinter because he wasn't down with the whole bathe in blood thing.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Unfortunately, we don't really know that much about the Imperial Chantry.  Maybe Dorian will have more information about it?

 

Hopefully so, because as it stands they don't have the whole "help the poor and orphans" thing that the other chantry does due to the enforced caste system of tevinter and that whole slavery thing they got going on, nor do they regulate the lyrium trade, and probably don't provide general education or relief work to the needy.

 

Really I can't see the imperial chantry being any sort of force for good due to the nature of tevinter's society, but maybe I'm wrong and its a hotbed of promoting altruism and good will to your fellow man and a bastion of morality in the sea of blood magic and power grabs.

[Master Warder Z_]

Reading Dorian's bio, I got the impression he left Tevinter because he wasn't down with the whole bathe in blood thing.

 

I get the feeling he is going to go straight back there the moment he finds something notable enough to give him an edge.

 

I think he is treasure hunting.

[Medhia_Nox]

I truly hope the Tevinter has harsh guidelines for mages.

 

Yearly Harrowings starting at a young age - contests of power amongst peers - invasive "scientific" tests to gauge ability - invasive "scientific" tests to study magical aptitude... basically grinding mages through years of harsh living to separate the best from the rest.

 

Mages who don't survive should be dissected - whole families should be wiped out if "defects" are found (like a line that shows excessive possession).

 

And I hope they take an even harder line on the "Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him."  Because magic would just be the means to their power - a tool for them to grasp and control - not to be controlled by.  Being controlled by magic (like possession) should be the most abhorrent thing in Tevinter because of the weakness your will showed.

 

I assume Templars are privately owned?  I hope so.  I'd love to see Templars used in House vs. House politicking with cruel, resourceful Templars having a chance to be important parts of a family (maybe even honored with joining by marriage). 

 

I'd also like to see useful slaves "rewarded" with breeding - even if they don't get to keep the child or have any contact.  After all - there are many traits a Tevinter magister might want to add to their gene pool to increase their magic (I'm looking at you elves).  Who knows what secrets breeding elven stock into your line could help with.  Though - of course, one must be discerning about such things (and potentially secretive).

 

Tevinter fascinates me for all the reasons I would find it reprehensible... I hope Bioware doesn't let me down.

 

Edit:  Dorian left because he's gay and refused to breed I believe.

[TheJediSaint]

I get the feeling he is going to go straight back there the moment he finds something notable enough to give him an edge.

 

I think he is treasure hunting.

I could be wrong, but I think the whole point of Dorian is to have a sympathetic Tevinter Mage.  Lord knows we've seen enough of the unsympathetic variety.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well that could be it too...Although if you listen to Isabella droan on you can have a few male lovers as long as you pop out a kid or two for the sake of keeping up the lineage.

[Master Warder Z_]

I could be wrong, but I think the whole point of Dorian is to have a sympathetic Tevinter Mage.  Lord knows we've seen enough of the unsympathetic variety.

 

Sympathetic...Tevinter...

 

Those two words SHOULD never even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

I give the Imperium props, it was a culture, an empire in a sea of shamanistic barbarity and tree worship.

 

But its a broken and twisted thing, if half of what i expect out of the Imperium is true its basically a magical North Korea.