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[raging_monkey]

North korea and tevinter are vastly different but i understand the reference.

OT we really have only seen extreme aspects of tevinter and in-verse reports are largly bias, so its only fair to show a possibly even keeled tevinter(dorian) and when inquisition is released we may see other tevinters sharing dorian's views

[Master Warder Z_]

North korea and tevinter are vastly different but i understand the reference.

 

Of course one is a very real hereditary totalitarian state and the other is a fictional totalitarian magocracy.

[Br3admax]

Sympathetic...Tevinter...

 

Those two words SHOULD never even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

I give the Imperium props, it was a culture, an empire in a sea of shamanistic barbarity and tree worship.

 

But its a broken and twisted thing, if half of what i expect out of the Imperium is true its basically a magical North Korea.

Nope. No ones crying over random dead men. Those with awe inspiring power wield it unconditionally, those who have covert power take it from those who have wield it openly. And if you can't swim in the deep end with the sharks, go back to the kiddie pool. Of course we established months ago how the Sith traveled to Thedas, so don't be surprised by my support of the Imperium. 

[TheJediSaint]

Of course one is a very real hereditary totalitarian state and the other is a fictional totalitarian magocracy.

I think Tevinter's overdue for Dear Leader to take over.

[Daerog]

However, many of these responses are due to Tevinter culture and government. It may not be directly tied to the Chantry there. It may not have a majority in the Senate, and so cannot pass anti-slave laws, and even when an Archon tried, he was assassinated.

 

The Imperial Chantry is limited to Tevinter, it doesn't have support from other nations. It needs to pick its battles and make change slowly, if it wants it that is. It's not like it can just say "No" to some Archon without risking assassination, unlike the Chantry that can say "No" to a king of a backwater nation.

 

Perhaps it does try to help the slaves and non-mages, unlike many magisters. Like the regular Chantry tries to help the elves, but since barons and other humans oppress the elves, the Chantry is made guilty by association.

 

Yes, there are issues, such as favoring mages. They see magic as a gift of the god(s)/Maker, and that the person is blessed and is possibly meant for better things, and if the Maker does bless someone in such a way, then probably the Maker/god(s) does not want that person to be a cleric. The Orlesian Chantry thinks women are better than men because Andraste's husband betrayed her, and because of his betrayal, all men are judged to be more flawed or whatever. There is some similarity there, although the Imperial is more focused on a (perceived) positive and the Orlesian Chantry is focused more on a negative.

 

There are those trying to change Tevinter, like Dorian, and it could be spear headed by some of the grand clerics.

 

Of course, I am using the word "maybe" a lot, since not much is known. While the IC is directly involved in politics, the OC is still indirectly involved, and the OC certainly has enough sway to conquer nations with an Exalted March, not so much with the IC. Tevinter has its issues, just as Orlais does (although not as bad), so just as OC can't be necessarily blamed for all the misdeeds Orlais does, why should IC be blamed for all of Tevinter's misdeeds?

 

Honestly, I'm just trying something new, kind of bored defending the Circle system and the Chantry, just changing it up with the Imperial Chantry, which we know very little of but for some reason it is still as vilified as Tevinter is. Even though there is some overlap, they are not the same entity.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

And the Exalted Marches I'm talking about are discussed right in the History of the Chantry codex entries. The first exalted march is considered Andraste's against the Imperium, and the second ones were Drakon using the devout to help him conquer all the neighboring city states to form the nation of Orlais in -15 Ancient through -3 Ancient, with the first Divine being appointed in the beginning of the Divine Age. 

http://dragonage.wik...Exalted_Marches

 

Exalted marches by the chantry are listed on that link. No mention is ever made of conquering surrounding neighbor states as being exalted marches.

 

They supported the legitimate government of the area. Orlais had conquered Ferelden. The war was over.  You had a rebel group, but that is hardly a legitimate government.  You also had chantry priests who served in the rebellion, Mother Ailis.

 

 

How exactly phylacteries work I have no clue, but I also don't consider the on the same plane as blood magic. Phylacteries are inert and don't actually affect anyone, they just allow you to be tracked.

 

Evangeline in Asunder says the templars are hypocrites because the phylacteries, using a mages blood, is a form of blood magic. David Gaider said that the phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn says that his ritual to discover the Lights of Arlathan, using Dalish blood as a component, would be seen as a grey area because although the blood wasn't powering the spell, it was still used in it. Heck, the Tome of the Mortal Vessel item description outright says that there are many who ban anatomical practices because it is considered blood magic because it requires studying the body, which has blood. 

 

Blood magic is using blood as a power source, or as a component in a magical ritual or spell. The Grey Warden joining is blood magic because of its use of archdemon and darkspawn blood. The Reaver ritual is blood magic because of its use of dragon blood. Phylacteries are blood magic because of their use of mages blood. 

 

Blood magic isn't just controlling people's minds or amplifying existing spells. It's simply the use of blood in the spell or ritual in and of itself. Often used for dark and nefarious deeds, but that's really all it is. 

 

It is somewhat hypocritical yes, but it is also more the spirit of the rules against blood magic. It isn't the fact that blood is used, it is what the blood magic can do.  There is no danger presented by the phylacteries.

 

Well, a divine is divine representation of Andraste on earth, so therefore if they choose to remove verses from the chant they are acting in the will of Andraste and know better then us mere mortals.

 

So if we follow this logic, Justinia V is the divine representation of Andraste, and had every right to try and help mages and Lambert and the Seekers/Templars should've just sucked it up because they are mere mortals? And the Divine who is elected by the Grand Clerics, those same Grand Clerics never, ever have any second thoughts if the Divine starts saying things they disapprove of?

 

I noticed you didn't actually address my point on the hypocrisy of the Chantry as an institution when it comes to its beliefs in the Chant. 

BTW yes. That is why I feel that Justinia is well within her rights to modernize and reform the chantry in Asunder. I consider Lamberts actions a high betrayal of his faith and the fact that the templars are largely populated by ones such as Lambert as opposed to the more open minded ones we have encountered is another failing.  This divinity is my response to your comments about the chant. If a divine is considered divine representation then she is completely able to deduce when a part of the chant is no longer needed.

 

Let me be clear Dragon, I am not arguing the chantry is perfect, I just find it hypocritical of gamers that it is held to a much higher standard then other groups that commit things just as bad or worse in DA.  We tend to find a narrative and stick to it based off our experiences in the games presented. I blame DA2 for a lot of this. But I do find it funny how the Dalish and Dwarves are considered saints along with Ferelden, when all three groups are and do have their issues which are just as big and bad as the Qunari, Chantry, Imperium, or Orlais.

 

 

 

1. The Codex "History of the Chantry Chapter 4" specifically says that Drakon united the city-states of Orlais through a series of Exalted Marches while building the cathedral while he was king of a single city-state. 

 

It may not be counted as an official Exalted March, but that's what that codex calls it, so that's why I used the term. It's also why I say the Chantry was founded alongside the nation of Orlais as part of Orlais, and that's why they give Orlesians preferential treatment, even getting involved in matters that have nothing to do with them, like the trade dispute between Kirkwall and Orlais. 

 

And because of this preferential treatment at an institutional level, it is my argument that the Chantry is not truly a religion for all who will convert, but an Orlesian religion that happens to believe in the Maker and will accept any convert, but will always, at the higher levels of it, always support Orlais when it has no right or reason to actually get involved. And that irks me about them. 

 

2. So the Chantry follows the 'spirit' of the law against blood magic with their templars, but the full letter of it taken to an extreme with mages and apostates?

 

Glad you agree with me on the Chantry's hypocrisy of it. It is that very hypocrisy that riles me on this particular issue. 

 

3. Okay, cool. At least you're consistent on the rights and powers of the Divine, and also cool that we seem to largely be in agreement about Lambert. 

 

This was a nice discussion. Dragonflight288 approval of clean and respectful discourse: +65

[Han Shot First]

Yeah I never get the hate either...the Chantry has negatives (Exalted Marches and treatment of mages) but the Qunari are a thousand times worse on both regards and everyone loves them. Hell, the Chantry doesn't even care about most the social issues that people give real organized religions flak for.

 

I consider the Exalted Marches one of its positives. Or at least, some of the Exalted Marches were justified.

 

The ones that kept the Qunari contained were just. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I consider the Exalted Marches one of its positives. Or at least, some of the Exalted Marches were justified.

 

The ones that kept the Qunari contained were just. 

 

Every Exalted March was a positive.

 

Tevinter, Qunari, Elves.

 

Enemies all.

[Daerog]

Ya, all the official Exalted Marches were responses to threats to either the Chantry, Thedas, or the stability of Thedas.

 

I think, can't list them all off the top of my head.

[Steelcan]

Sympathetic...Tevinter...

 

Those two words SHOULD never even be mentioned in the same breath.

 

I give the Imperium props, it was a culture, an empire in a sea of shamanistic barbarity and tree worship.

 

But its a broken and twisted thing, if half of what i expect out of the Imperium is true its basically a magical North Korea.

less North Korea and more Ancient Republican Rome, there is some social mobility, but the majority of power is held by an aristocracy that is loosely Republican in nature (ie having a Senate)

[Master Warder Z_]

Ya, all the official Exalted Marches were responses to threats to either the Chantry, Thedas, or the stability of Thedas.

 

I think, can't list them all off the top of my head.

 

The first one that was actually an exalted march was against the Dales, The ones after that were against Tevinter and the most modern were against Qunari.

[Daerog]

The first one that was actually an exalted march was against the Dales, The ones after that were against Tevinter and the most modern were against Qunari.

 

Well, "officially" the first one was against the old Tevinter Imperium... as that is where Exalted Marches come from, and if the prophet's exalted march isn't official, then what is?

 

On the wikia, it says: Imperium, Dales, Starkhaven (because Tevinter took it over, didn't do an EM when Starkhaven was trying to conquer the world, just when Tevinter started to be directly involved rather than indirectly), Imperial Chantry, and then Qunari.

 

Contemplated EMs don't count, obviously.

[Master Warder Z_]

I only count those who actually were ordered by the Chantry, those ordered by the Divine after the formation of the Chantry, in this case the war led by Andraste against the Imperium is not listed.

 

Even though the name was supposedly inspired by what Andraste called her war.

[LD Little Dragon]

Yes, they are , arguably, prisioners. There is still a difference between that and a slave.

David Gaider will tell you as much. "Imprisonment, sure, but I'm not sure you can equate the mages to being slaves. Their life is not their own, but they are not servants to anyone."

http://forum.bioware...intended/page-9

 

In conclusion, you have no grounds to claim that the Circle is a form of slavery.

You are correct Circle mages are not slaves.

 

They are life-long prisoners who have commited no crime.  Which is aguably much worse than slavery.

 

Slaves can, depending on their masters and how valuable their skills are, live quite well.

 

Even in the DA setting - one of the best examples people bring up on how well-off circle mages have it is Wynne.  Really? The woman who is presented as one of the most trusted mages in Thedas -  still had her child taken away.  Wynne has a very long leash, but she still can't earn the equivalent of a pardon.

 

Even Tevinter has the Liberati.  Slaves can earn their freedom. Slaves can have families and raise their own children as proven by Fenris.

 

A slave can work their way out of slavery or at least hope for a decent master, a mage will always be a prisoner whether on a short leash or a long one.

 

I'd prefer slavery.

[raging_monkey]

Whats the difference still controlled

[TheChosenOne]

The chantry will be nothing but ashes after I'm done......

[raging_monkey]

Aww that just breeds more problems but to each there own *offers pitchfork and popcorn* go nuts

[Daerog]

People who are quarantined due to a plague have committed no crime but are locked up anyway.

 

That is for the best of society, and, arguably, it is not evil and is necessary.

 

Mages are a threat to those around them, and so they are quarantined, but quarantined and taken care of for life. Kirkwall is not a good example of a Circle, but an extreme one. Fereldan is a pretty good example, but still falls victim to corrupt enchanters (the first enchanter before Irving, and then Uldred).

 

Magic is, arguably, a plague. It does some nice stuff, but it does more harm than good.

 

Being a slave, especially a slave in Tevinter, is a far worse fate than being locked up in a Circle where you receive food, shelter, and an education.

[Willowhugger]

Mages shall be free.

My character believes in the Maker so it's rather awkward.

He'll oppose the Chantry in whatever element is required so that mages are free now and forever.

 

But otherwise, he's quite religious.

[Willowhugger]

People who are quarantined due to a plague have committed no crime but are locked up anyway.

 

That is for the best of society, and, arguably, it is not evil and is necessary.

 

Mages are a threat to those around them, and so they are quarantined, but quarantined and taken care of for life. Kirkwall is not a good example of a Circle, but an extreme one. Fereldan is a pretty good example, but still falls victim to corrupt enchanters (the first enchanter before Irving, and then Uldred).

 

Magic is, arguably, a plague. It does some nice stuff, but it does more harm than good.

 

Being a slave, especially a slave in Tevinter, is a far worse fate than being locked up in a Circle where you receive food, shelter, and an education.

 

Everyone should be taught magic, IMHO. Non-magic using Thedans are disabled, as far as I'm concerned.

 

I do hope the game allows us to want to free EVERYONE, even if it's impossible.

 

Because while I'm Pro-Mage, I'm also Pro-Elf and Pro-Emancipation and Anti-Noble.

Which, as far as everyone is concerned, makes me a frigging lunatic to everyone probably.

[Daerog]

So your character is more for the theology of the Imperial Chantry than the Orlesian Chantry. Someone can worship the Maker and see magic as a divine gift or whatever, and the current Chantry has a corrupted understanding of the Chant.

 

Freeing mages, or however you want to call it, would be great once anti-magic enchantments can be commonplace and easily accessible to commoners, and the Litany of Andralla on hand for every politician.

[Willowhugger]

So your character is more for the theology of the Imperial Chantry than the Orlesian Chantry. Someone can worship the Maker and see magic as a divine gift or whatever, and the current Chantry has a corrupted understanding of the Chant.

 

Freeing mages, or however you want to call it, would be great once anti-magic enchantments can be commonplace and easily accessible to commoners, and the Litany of Andralla on hand for every politician.

 

That's the real trick of Thedas, isn't it? I'm all for the Tevinter's theology except for the fact they're a bunch of blood-magic using slavers.

 

Except, of course, everywhere else they don't use blood magic to enslave people's minds so they're better, right?

No, they just SWORDS to enslave people.

They have slavery all over Thedas, they just call it serfdom. The Tevinter are pretty awful but the other nations aren't nearly as good as they seem to think they are. Blood magic allows you to enslave minds but so does threatening to cut a guy's head off if they don't do what you say and that seems to be the way Orlais does things.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

My preference for playing usually is a moderate Dalish Rogue, and looking at it from that standpoint neither he nor I have much reason to love Andrastianism. But both he and I recognize the need for some form of protection against black, uncontrolled, and otherwise harmful magic.

 

Point to the Chantry: An official group of warriors specifically trained in abilities that counteract dangerous magic (note: MAGIC, not MAGES).

Point against the Chantry: This private army is forcibly addicted to lyrium, which may or may NOT actually enhance their anti-magic (as evidenced by Allistair in Origins)

 

Point to the Chantry: A relatively safe environment for mages to live and learn how to control their abilities.

Point against the Chantry: Mages are never given the choice and are forcibly imprisoned and hunted down if they ever try to leave or question the status quo.

 

Point to the Chantry: Teachings of compassion, mercy, and charity in the Chant of Light.

Point against the Chantry: Treatment of any other faith group, as evidenced by the Exalted March on the Dales, the near eradication of former Qunari-held villages that refused to convert back to Andrastianism, and an otherwise intolerant attitude towards any but their own faith.

 

Point to the Chantry: Charitable works to the poor and lower class.

Point against the Chantry: Extreme decadence and hoarding of wealth and resources.

 

Point to the Chantry: Supporting peace and justice and being mediators and negotiators on the political and national stage. (Such as during the Landsmeet in Origins)

Point against the Chantry: Complete inaction when it comes to the abuses of power committed by specific members (Mother Petrice and Ser Alrik. for example) who used their faith to justify their actions.

 

All in all, the Chantry is a force for good... For certain people. And from a certain point of view. It is an opposing force... for certain people. And from the opposite point of view. It all depends on which side of the fence you plant your flag: Freedom or Order. Chaos or Oppression. Personally, I think the Chantry and its teachings are going to have to change significantly for everyone's benefit, but not be wiped out entirely.

[TTTX]

Every Exalted March was a positive.

 

Tevinter, Qunari, Elves.

 

Enemies all.

What happened between the Dales and Orlais seems a bit fishy. After all Orlais have a long history of backstabbing and such, I can easily see Orlais poke at the Dales until war broke out after all the Dales was gifted to the elves by Andraste's children so they couldn't just invade in order get access to some more fertile lands since they lost some because of the blight. Not that the Dales are innocent after all they refused to partake in the blight and stuff like that.

People who are quarantined due to a plague have committed no crime but are locked up anyway.

 

That is for the best of society, and, arguably, it is not evil and is necessary.

 

Mages are a threat to those around them, and so they are quarantined, but quarantined and taken care of for life. Kirkwall is not a good example of a Circle, but an extreme one. Fereldan is a pretty good example, but still falls victim to corrupt enchanters (the first enchanter before Irving, and then Uldred).

 

Magic is, arguably, a plague. It does some nice stuff, but it does more harm than good.

 

Being a slave, especially a slave in Tevinter, is a far worse fate than being locked up in a Circle where you receive food, shelter, and an education.

some of the problems in the circle are groups like libertarians who has a very narrow minded view on the circle are among the ones who cause trouble for their fellow mages, then you have Templars like Meredith who let's her past experiences cloud her judgment (along with forgetting some of her duties as a templar is also to protect mages not just have them locked up) in some areas (+ that red lyrium didn't help) there is also templars like Alrik who used every opportunity to hound mages in order to put a brand on their head and that add fuel to the fire between mages and templars.

 

what happened in Kirkwall was the worst possible situation for a circle, the veil is very thin (I personally believe there shouldn't have been a circle there in the first place) Meredith was in charge (a woman who had way more power then a templar should have), Hawke found the red lyrium, Anders blew up the local chantry and the Seekers apparently never came to Kirkwall despite Meredith ruling the city for 3 years on her own.

 

 

Mages shall be free.

My character believes in the Maker so it's rather awkward.

He'll oppose the Chantry in whatever element is required so that mages are free now and forever.

 

But otherwise, he's quite religious.

the mages will still need education free or not.

[Ieldra]

There was some debate about phylacteries and if they were blood magic above. Well, they are in some way, but that's rather less relevant (apart from being evidence for some hypocrisy on the templars' part) than the fact that a phylactery can be used to cast spells on the person it's connected to from afar. World of Thedas explicitly mentions this.

Yeah, the Chantry does good work... keeping their feet firmly planted on the necks of the mageborn. I hope we'll get the opportunity to raid a phylactery store. These things need to be destroyed.